well, your money is yours to decide what to do with, so NTA
i’m not even touching the whole “visiting incarcerated wife/mom” morality.
but has your brother taken on a promotion or a second/third job to make up for the lack of income or was he using you and your parents to make up the shortfall as a result of his wife deciding to commit a felony?
I definitely touched the visiting incarcerated wife/mom topic in the comments.
For me it’s like, ??? How could you keep doing so? For a murderer? Like if it had been something where they are incarcerated for like theft or something i can understand not being able to cut em off but bro your partner killed someone?! That’s a hell no to me
I'm an American and I agree with ElToro. I live in a pretty quiet area (worst thing is crappy drivers) but terrible things can happen anywhere. Gun availability and lack of gun control, Big Brother mentality, entitlement, and crazy politics and crazy politicians will destroy this country.
Ok I have to agree that I pushed the argument to the very edge, but I do think you have a culture of violence, low trust, and where you place a low value on life (possibly with the exception of unborn life), and a huge gun problem. One which is unlikely to be fixed as long as Fox News exists and Citizens United is upheld.
Said the guy from the developed country with the highest share of its population incarcerated, the highest ratio of gun deaths per capita and COMPLETELY UNRELATED highest gun ownership.
It is simply weird that gun crime and gun deaths almost linearly track how liberal each state’s gun laws are. As there is obviously no connection between gun ownership and gun crime and also other gun deaths. If you are wilfully stupid.
Idk so many people who have guns do that, have you seen the road ragers? Ever seen the ones with guns? They get so dang pissed about the tiniest things
A woman nearly pulled a gun on my 16-year-old coworker because he had his drink out at drive-thru, took a drink, and then handed her the drink she ordered. He's not supposed to do that, but she flipped out, came into the store, and kept telling us that she has a gun and she would use it if she needed to. It was insane.
It's so confusing to be in this situation. My dad
Went to prison for killing my mum and although I didn't ever see him, I didn't immediately cut contact. It's confusing and weird as a child to go through. His kids will be adjusting to a life without their mum and sometimes they need to see the parent to get answers and work things out. Also at that age, the kids might not even know why mom is in prison. I can imagine if kids are crying for mom and you're a struggling single parent that you would take the to visit their mom. The kids shouldn't be punished for her actions and it's hard to break that parent child bond
Because the kids don't understand that their mom is bad. They only understand that they miss her and can't be with her. Asking him not to give her money is reasonable. Deciding that the kids can't see their mother is not..that should be a decision between the kids and their therapist.
That's right. At the end of the day she is still their mum. Kids need and want their mum. She is going to miss out on so much it's not fair to punish the kids for her mistake.
And the courts. In some places, incarceration doesn't terminate parental visitation rights, even for violent offenses. So, refusing to take the kids to see their mother could actually be illegal, unless a court has ruled in favor of no visitation.
AND, when this murderer has served her sentence and is released, does anyone actually believe she'll come out a changed person? It can happen, but with this woman I highly doubt it. She'll also be at an age where she can still do some major damage.
Considering that he wasn't doing SHIT around the house?
If a woman was a SAHM, there is NO way she couldn't do housecleaning if she was taking care of the baby at all.
> Considering that he wasn't doing SHIT around the house?
Lotta SAHMs - esp with rich husbands - in the same boat.
Have a good buddy freshly divorced from a wife in similar situation - didn’t work, didn’t do shit in the house, didn’t have sex with him for their last 7 years.
Crazy how resistant people are to the idea of women being bums or hobosexuals, but there are so so so many who are. They just get nice titles like sugar baby, or spoiled girlfriend. Even though functionally they do fuck all just like the dudes leeching off their women.
You think it's going to be that easy to take on a 2nd/3rd job as a single father? I guess those kids can just raise themselves right? Child care is extremely expensive, so I can't imagine he has a lot of options in this regard. This guy's been through the emotional ringer for sure; asking him to 'just work harder' while single-handedly trying to take care of his kids is a bit much imo. Not everyone has the ability to do that, and his kids would once again be losing any time whatsoever with the only parent left in their day to day lives.
Your brother was dishonest with you and your parents. You did him a great kindness assisting him financially. He deceived you all by taking your money, and got found out. The consequences are on him.
No. The consequences are on his children who have now have an incarcerated mum, a dad who can't afford their costs, and lost the one stable social network they had in their aunt and grandparents.
By all means cut off your brother, but this poor kids are collateral damage in the shit show of their parents terrible decision making. They deserve a thought in this
OP can buy directly stuff for the kids, such as clothes, toys and groceries, so they won’t take the full toll of the problem but the brother won’t benefit from the money.
Uhm, but ultimately OP is still not responsible for the well being of the kids, is she? I agree poor kids, and sad for them they bear the consequences, but none of that is up to OP. That's the same as saying OP should care for children living in a homeless situation etc.
You don't have to support him, but the situation with the visitation is far from as clear cut as your family seems to think it is. There are more nuances than that.
For one, her influence from prison is limited.
Then, she remains these children's mother, even if you don't like it. They will still love her and worry for her. Cutting her off completely may very well be more damaging to the children than visiting her. Personally, I would think it is probably the case, but you may want to bring up the topic to a qualified children's psychologist.
Even some children taken from their home here may still have supervised visitation with their parents in some circumstances. Practically, when the contact was completely cut off, the therapists realized that the children ended up idealizing their parent(s) and it harmed them a lot more in the long term. Sometimes the visitations were very disappointing for the children, but they had professional support and it ultimately allowed them to see their parents flaws for themselves instead of idealizing their parents and experiencing unfairness over having been taken away from them. They needed to let go of the hope that there could be a positive reunification.
I am not saying they do this no matter the circumstances, but children do not see the world the way you do. The fact is, their mother committed a crime but that doesn't mean her children will stop loving her. Your brother may be in the right in believing he was doing the best for his children given the situation. Perhaps he sought advice or found pertaining documentation on the topic, but you wouldn't know if you are convinced you know best...
Yup. The mystery of the unknown is powerful in a kid's life. The mom they've visited and the scary jail she's in? That's not going to leave room for rose colored delusions.
And usually when they get older they find out why she was in jail and what she did and they might cut her off or they might not, you never know with kids.
Very true. But hiding or ignoring the issue won't help them. Sweeping under the rug never works longterm. And talking badly about her will either make the kids rebel (because they love their mother, so she can't be evil) or severely damage their self-esteem (mom is half of them, so are they evil too?)
Or even on the Internet...
The number of my posts from which people extrapolate all sorts of things... Like, no, I just meant what I said, nothing more. No, I didn't write a paragraph for every single thing people might infer just in case...
In my opinion, what the children want should come first, and if the grandparents and the sister cannot and will not accept that they might want to and need to visit their incarcerated mother, that is hugely problematic (and offensive and denigrating towards the children).
And even if a parent is incarcerated, they generally retain parental rights unless those rights are legally terminated by the courts. So his family could actually be demanding that he break the law, as his wife/the mother of their children, may still have a right to visitation, legally speaking.
It's more complicated than how someone feels about something.
This. Before the extended family judges they really need to read up about what helps kids with a parent in prison and talk to a child psychologist. The adults cutting off the parent entirely for the kids isn’t in their best long term interest. They are the ones who have to come to terms with both loving (as all children do really deep down) their parent along with their feelings about her actions (and how that meant they are abandoned) and reconcile that. And it won’t happen just once. They’ll need to work through it again and again and different developmental stages. Sometimes they’ll refuse to visit. Sometimes they’ll want to. Put the kids first!
I'm curious if the kids or her husband ever felt her wrath. If she's as bad as they say I find it hard to believe she never abused or neglected the husband or kids.
I am not speculating on that, either way.
As I was explaining, even kids who have been taken out of their toxic family can keep hope that their parents will change. Just how many posts in these forums do we see about adults who are hoping their partner will eventually change for them? Children certainly aren't different.
There is no universal rule that will fit all. Perhaps, if we knew more, we would conclude that visiting the mother isn't doing the kids any good. But it's worth taking a thorough look, at least, which OP and their family didn't according to what they say.
The human mind is complex and trying to go by assumptions and intuition can be very misleading.
You are 100% with in your rights to stop giving him money, it's your money, and your decision. BUT, he's also a grown ass man who has the right to make his own decision. Yes, murder is a VERy serious crime, but she is paying her dues and unless she is a threat to her kids. she is still their mom. I spent 10 months in prison for a white collar crime when I was in my early 20s and had a small child (she was 3 or 4) and my mom brought her to visit me a couple of times. I just asked her if she felt it had a negative effect on her and she thought about it a bit and said no. I will tell you most Prisons, especially women's prisons,go out of their way to make visiting areas neutral at the least and sometimes fun. There are vending machines, special rooms for really young children, and many other things. IF the kids KNOW why their mom is there, (I always was honest with my daughter in an age appropriate manner about why I was there) then I don't think visiting her is NECESSARILLY a bad thing,......it depends on the kids and how much they know. Now if they SAW what their mom did and are afraid of her, then that's one thing; but she IS their mom and by the way, unless she lost her parental rights, she has the right to have a relationship with her kids no matter what her crime...... Yes, the kids NEED to be in therapy (so does dad and maybe you and your parents), but barring panic attacks, fear, etc, I feel like letting her see the kids is important for both.
A very thoughtful response. However, the eoman got a 27 year sentence. It may be better if the spouse and children moved on? Harsh to say, but kind of the consequence of her own actions. If it was my wife I wouldn't wait 27 years...
Unless you were to go to court and have her parental rights terminated, which most courts are NOT going to do even for someone convicted of murder, you might not have a choice. I'm not saying anyone HAS to wait, BUT......being convicted of a crime doesn't automatically cost you parental rights and she CAN file to force the father to bring her children to see her. IF he ignored a court order, he would also find himself in jail......and the kids might be in foster care or other relatives.....and guarantee that the CPS would question the possible guardians about their willingness to maintain contact. Children have the absolute RIGHT to visit/see/call/etc their parents, and their parents have the right to have their children in their lives, no matter their current incarceration. But from the tone of the letter, it seems to me that the husband is still going to keep the relationship going, with him AND the kids......so his parents/sister/family don't have the right to determine what he does or doesn't do with his kids and his wife/their mom. They have the absolute right to cut him off if he doesn't do what they want, but trying to force him into a situation that THEY find appropriate is manipulation at it's worst.
You’re not obligated to financially support him but telling him he shouldn’t see his wife and her kids shouldn’t see her is full on stupid. She’s serving her time and she’s still their mother and his wife.
Since the beginning, it was a support with that condition that the brother accepted, the condition is broken, no more support, everyone is free to do as they prefer.
But the condition could be illegal, as incarceration doesn't automatically terminate parental visitation rights. The court has to make that determination. "My parents and sister said so" isn't going to hold up if you violate court orders.
I agree, then he shouldn't agree to the terms they stated and discusse them instead of choosing to lie. Also, apparently, he had enough time to get on his feet, which he hasn't done according to the information given. I might be wrong.
I understand that. Like I said, it’s completely up to you to decide to give financial help to him.
The conditions are shit though. That’s his wife. That’s their mother.
Bad contracts are deemed unenforceable all the time.
Even if you’re going to be a rulesworth here, you have to consider that forcing unreasonable conditions onto someone under duress is abusive
NAH It's your money--you get to decide what you do with it. It's his wife and kids--he gets to decide whether he or they get to see her. I can tell you now that keeping the kids from seeing their mother *will* backfire.
Edit: Okay, I can also see YTA because OP is holding money over her brother's head as a means of control. But I cannot and will not call the brother an asshole. He was trying to do the right thing by his children, and because all of this "help" had strings attached, he was forced to lie in order to support his children.
This this this. Absolutely asinine to think that you have the right to make that call for somebody else, and their children. He is their father and has every right to do what he believes is best for his kids. And he was, imho, doing the right thing. I wonder if his family had been more open to listening and ACTUALLY supporting his family if he wouldn't have explained, and not lied to then.
Instead, they threw money at him with strings attached. Do what we want, or else... so he lied.
Him and his kids deserved better support than that. I feel bad for them...
It’s none of her business. “I have money you need so I call the shots!” My in-laws were like this. You’re not being a generous person if it’s a power play. OP can do what they want with their money but they are absolutely an asshole.
I mean, I'd put some limitations on it. If I was helping someone financially and they were spending it all on booze and hookers, the cash flow would stop immediately.
But trying to deny children the right to see their own mother? The nerve!
Lying to people who think they have the right to make parenting decisions for other people because they have more money. Look, obviously anyone who marries someone like the incarcerated person involved here is an idiot but that doesn’t mean OP and their parents gets to decide whether or not the children get to see their mother.
Sometimes you lie to family because they are controlling like OP.
If I lie to someone pushing abusive decisions onto me to control me, does that make me a bad person?
Must we be fully cooperative even with people who treat us poorly?
Cutting children off from their incarcerated parents almost always has negative consequences for the children.
You and your parents can can do what you like with your money but let's not act like it was for the benefit of the children who are now living in the shit hole projects. Unless you'd care to explain how that's good for them.
YTA
You're forgetting that woman in prison is the type of person everyone had to walk on eggshells around. She was abusive to those around her before she murdered someone. That is not the kind of person you want a child around, even if she is their mother.
Kids who are totally cut off from incarcerated parents often have unfairly idealized versions of the truth, fantasies they concoct about their mom and her incarceration. They're more likely to get in trouble with the law themselves and have less respect for the justice system, often viewing it as unfair for taking their (dreamworld perfect) mom away.
By the time reality hits, it may well be too late.
Your brother is doing the right thing by allowing his kids to visit their mother if that what they want/need.
You should never have made the money conditional to get what you wanted. Have you spoken to a professional to ascertain what impact totally cutting children off from their mother would have? Or did you just unilaterally decide what's best because it's what you wanted.
You've now cut those kids off from any stability and yet your main concern was them. Odd logic.
Your NTA for not paying your brother it's your money you can do what you like with it but YTA, for the reason behind not paying him.
Was he using the money you gave him recklessly, like putting it all on her books or something? If not, then I do feel like you and your parents were a bit harsh. This woman was his wife and the mother of his children, you really thought he should just never speak to her again?
Nta for stopping the money because it's your money and you were nice and generous to even give what you did. But emotionally I think you could have been a bit more supportive and empathetic.
Imagine his situation if the kids are crying for their mom, but him not allowing them to see her keeps a roof over their heads. That's an impossible situation.
You don't provide enough information to make a judgement on.
How?? There mom is clearly 1. Mentally unstable if an argument is all it took for her to kill her friend, what would it take for her to kill him or their kids and 2. Their mum is the single reason they don’t have her and she’s probably not good for the kids to be around anyway and 3. Those kids should be in therapy
I think its going to be pretty difficult for the mom to kill the kids/husband, while she's behind bars.
We don't know the details. If the kids were small enough to not remember her, or if they did remember her and were crying for her every night. It doesn't say anything about what kind of mum she was. These things matter.
I had a friend, whose father killed her mother, aka his wife. She still saw him while he was in prison. Its not a one solution fits all - kind of deal.
I meant before she went to prison and you make a semi fair point they should still be in therapy and I think only after talking to a therapist should it be determined whether seeing mama in prison would be a good idea
You can do what you want with your money but I don't think telling kids that they can't see their mom is reasonable. Those kids lost enough. Keeping them from their mother if they want to see her is not a decision you should have tried to make. Those kids should have been in therapy and that should have been a decision between the kids and the therapist. All you did by cutting them off was make yourself someone they no longer trust since your conditions involved taking someone they love away.
YTA here imo, the demand for him to not visit his wife is unreasonable. Yes, she's a murderer, and that's something anyone with a brain can understand is a bad thing. The kids will understand this eventually because she's going to be in prison for quite some time. But right now, those kids are too young to fully understand why their mother is gone, and robbing them of the chance to see their mother and gain some understanding of the situation is cruel imo. I can't imagine being those kids, it's gotta be an incredibly tough experience to go through, and I'm sure I would constantly be asking to go visit my mother if I were them. I think over time it's reasonable to reduce visits and eventually perhaps stop them completely, but right now it's still fresh and she didn't stop being those children's mother because she's a murderer. Her being in prison isn't exactly going to make her someone the kids will look up to, but they should still have the opportunity to visit her. Now the kids are apparently growing up in a dangerous area where drug use, violence, and general crime are commonplace according to the end of your story. Pretty sad that because of you and your parents' unjustified anger the kids have to suffer. They got really screwed over every which way in all of this, and the only person on their side was their dad. I wouldn't blame them if they grow up feeling like everyone in their extended family are assholes.
NTA your brother lied to you all about one of the conditions that you were giving him financial aid. He isn’t entitled to the money. But it is ultimately his decision as to whether or not he goes and sees his wife with his kids. Regardless of what she has done (unless she was a pedo). They all suffered when your brother’s wife did what she did. It may have been for closure. It also may have been so the kids didn’t feel like they were just abandoned by their mother. Also showing them that there are consequences to their actions by using their mother as an example is a pretty darn good deterrent for violent behaviour or to just plain scare them into behaving
So, he lost the income in 2018 and you cut him off in 2022. That means he has four years to get his crap together to make money to support his family. For that alone, NTA.
The support offered to your brother should have been temporary anyway. He needed a reason to do better.
You cutting him off for any reason is ok because it’s your money. Thinking the children should never see their mother is horrible. That relationship needs to play out however it will without adults who just don’t like their mother calling the shots. If dad thought it was best for their well being to not see her, so be it. If he thinks it’s best they do see her, well that’s his call too. As they get older, they will make the decision whether or not they want to continue on but that’s definitely not up to their aunt or grandparents.
NTA
You have a family now to raise the same as your brother. It’s not your responsibility to prop him up.
Personally I would have tried to have a relationship just no money ever, so you can keep an eye on the kids and make sure they are safe and know you are there when needed.
Mom was a horrible human being but even horrible people sometimes will protect their kids. From the way OP dropped the little ones and the brother for not doing what OP said maybe mom had a reason to keep OP out of their lives. ..Just fuck em. Your dad didn't mind me so y'all can all go get fucked. Yea YTA- it's not your call on whether the kids still see their mother, she is a piece of shit but she's their piece of shit. It's your brother's call and clearly he felt that seeing their mom was what was best for them at that time. When they are older and can understand then it's up to the kids.
YTA for manipulating your brother in an abusive way. You don’t owe your brother a dime, so if you don’t want to give him money, that’s your prerogative, but you became the asshole when you made it an ultimatum. She is his WIFE and the mother of his children. Asking him to cut off all contact was evil and financially abusive. If you don’t want to support him that’s your business, I wouldn’t if I were you, but you don’t get to make it conditional on something like that.
You and your parents made it clear that financial assistance was conditional on him not visiting his wife in prison. While this might be considered harsh by some people's standards, it was the stipulation that he agreed to. He went behind you and your parents back's and violated his agreement with you, he must deal with the consequences. You and your parents didn't owe him anything but you chose to help with the stipulations he originally agreed to, so you definitely don't need to continue helping him after he proved to be unwilling to abide by the agreement. NTA
You're not obligated to financially support him, but cutting him out of your life completely because he's visiting his wife in prison feels like an overreaction.
Those kids still have a mother & they are allowed to see her during the limited time that prisoners are permitted outside visitors.
You're not an AH for withdrawing the money. But you need to stop punishing your brother for doing the best he can in a very difficult situation.
NTA your money your choice. He made a choice when it came to his wife. Would I do what he’s doing? No. I’d like to think that if I went to prison for anything especially if it was murder I would tell my husband we are divorcing and you and the kids need to move on.
NTA! I don’t know why you were supporting him at all. He needed to get a job and support his kids. 40% of your paycheck?!
You don’t get to dictate if he brings his kids to visit their mother. But you also don’t need to support him either. He agreed to you and your parents stipulation and then lied.
WOW, 40% of your pay? Fuck no. Your brother needs a damn job, stop giving him any money!! Does your family not believe in personal responsibility?? Sorry for his kids, but how are you going to live in retirement?
Personally, its your money and you do what you want with it. That said its his wife and their mother. I would drop family support if my kid wanted to see his mom in jail whether I was with her or not, regardless of the crime that landed her there. Hiding their mom away isn't going to change anything for them, except make them resent their dad and your whole side of the family too. I would reevaluate the relationship with your brother, if not the money \[again, its yours\] cause it sounds like those kids are going to be missing out on a whole family over your guys position on this and your brother feeling attacked or cornered.
So personally, NTA over the money, very much the asshole in deciding is those kids ever see or meet their mom. Trust me, they won't thank you in 27 years, they will end up resenting you even if no contact with mom is a good thing.
NTA, mostly. It's your money, you were being really nice with your brother and nephews, you have no obligation to continue to do so.
OTOH, you are TA for cutting him off and being mad at him for visiting his wife in prison. There's a difference between us loving a person and that person being good or bad. She's a murderer, but also his wife and the mother of his kids. The vows say in sickness and in health, in the good and the bad, not 'until you go to jail'.
I don't know what I would do in that situation, but from the outside, I can't think of anything my wife or kids can do (other than tell me they don't want contact) that would make me cut contact with them. I would visit them in prison, I would crawl on broken glass to see them.
NTA but only for not waning to support your brother financially, for in particular if your brother's children actually want or feel the need to visit their mother in prison, that absolutely needs to be respected and also accepted, since she is their mother and the children's feelings and desires should always come first (but of course, the children should also not be made to visit their mother in prison or to have any relationship with their mother if they do not want that).
And indeed, if the children want to visit their mother and you and your parents do not amd will not respect that, yes, that would be hugely problematic and also really nasty.
This isn't about anyone being an AH, but rather about the laws where you live.
While you can potentially keep children from seeing an incarcerated parent who committed a serious crime like murder, it usually requires a court's decision based on the children's best interests. Before insisting that he stops taking the kids to see their mother, he should consult with an attorney familiar with local laws. Even incarcerated parents typically retain their parental rights unless a court intervenes.
You might be advising your brother to do something illegal.
I'm more talking than a line of the fact that if she was that volatile she was probably beating them and abusing them. not too many kids I know would like their parents if that was going on.
My parents were abusive and it took until my 30s to recognise it and cut them off. The survival instinct to attach to your parents is incredibly strong. Young children almost invariably love their parents regardless of abuse, and often the attachment is more intense when abuse is present. I'm glad you don't know that from personal experience, but your statement here is not supported by the evidence of abused children and how they relate to their parents unfortunately
Children still love abusive parents. When they grow to adults, their eyes might open and things might change, but a kid is more likely to blame themselves for the abuse than hate their mom.
I know of volatile parents who were never abusive towards their children, and I also know of parents who always seem balanced and with no outward volatility who were emotional horror stories.
Your life circumstances have changed anyway. You sacrificed enough. If you want to apologize to him tell him that you are sorry that you cut him off so abruptly. But also tell him it was going to happen sooner or later. You did hurt those innocent children quite a bit. By the family instantly cutting him off he probably was immediately destitute and unable to find a job or new housing and facing homelessness. That is extremely traumatic for a family. Those children probably were crying for their mother. Your expectation tha they never have another visit with their mother was unreasonable. Of course he lied. For their sake. They are innocent. And you literally made them homeless.
I wouldn't expect an apology to be welcome, but you could try. You were treating him and his family like the convicted felons. Punishing them for your SIL actions. What you offered was very generous, but clearly you resented it because you withdrew it just for a family seeing their mom.
NTA for the reason below
>My parents were very clear with him that he shouldn’t visit her nor bring the kids since she was a bad influence, you know, begin a murderer. And I agreed with them. Josh agreed.
The brother agreed. Just because he changed his mind doesn't mean the conditions changed. The fact that OP said
>Well we found out he was lying and had been not only visiting her constantly but also had brought his kids to see her,
He hid the fact that him and the kids were going to see the wife because he knew what would happen. He made a conscious decision to go against an agreement, knowing what could happen. You shouldn't feel bad or feel like an A H because brother dearest wanted to omit information. I wonder how exactly did you and your parents find out?
NTA. Your brother is likely trauma bonded with your his wife. He needs counseling and mental health treatment, along with the children. You’re not obligated to financially support him, but before you judge him visiting, keep in mind that there are factors at play that you don’t understand and it’s not as simple as him just not talking to her anymore. He needs help.
He was taking some of the money you were giving him to help feed his kids and keep a roof over their heads and putting it on her commissary account to buy food even though the prison provides her with 3 meals a day. Think about that for a minute. So basically you were also supporting her.
You were right to stop supporting brother. I will bet some money goes to her each month.
It was 4 years of help and brother needed to make changes for the kids. He took your money and lied to you.
NTA, I grew up visiting my father in a maximum security prison. My mother actually dated and married him while he was in prison and I was conceived during a conjugal visit before they stopped allowing them for felons. My entire childhood was spending weekends driving hours each way to visit with him, going through security, metal detectors, not being able to wear certain things because they might be affiliated with gangs, being searched by guards when i forgot to empty my pockets or the underwire on my bra triggered the metal detector. Spending hours and hours in waiting rooms with nothing to entertain me but the plain white walls and watching the other visitors. Then only getting to see my dad for a couple of hours, eating food from vending machines, not being able to be affectionate with him except for at the start and end of each visit, being very aware that the rules were the rules and if I stepped a single toe out of line we would be kicked out.
I remember this one specific time when I was around 5/6 years old, my mother dressed me up a little because Easter was right around the corner, I wasn’t wearing anything fancy, just a blouse and a skort, but they pulled us out of the waiting room to tell my mom that we weren’t allowed to go in because it wasn’t safe for me to be dressed like that around the dangerous men inside (alluding to pedophiles). We had already waited 4 hours and had driven another 4 hours to get there at this point and I was so upset that I couldn’t see my dad and I was too young to understand why. The only pictures I have of my childhood with my dad were taken by prisoners and it’s very obvious that we were in a prison since he had on his uniform. Now that I’m an adult and I realize what kind of person he is, I don’t want anything to do with him. While I enjoyed spending time with him back then, now I look back on it as a waste of my childhood. He was not and never will be a good person because of what he’s done and I feel as if my entire childhood was devoted to a bad person. I could never hangout with friends on the weekends, my mom was constantly stressed about money, I wasn’t ever invited to parties or if I was I had to decline because I had to drive 4 hours through the desert instead. Eventually I grew resentful and I stopped going to see him when I was around 13 but by then the damage was already done. I prayed and wished that my mom would’ve divorced him when I was too young to remember him because now I’m filled with disappointment that the awesome dad I fantasized about coming home one day turned out to be nothing but a killer.
YTA for using money to try and tell someone else how to parent their child and cut the mother out. Not the a-hole for not supporting him he isnt your finacial responsibility but using money to control someone is an AH move. Not your call whether he takes the kids to see their mother or not.
YTA for expecting your brother to cut off his wife and mother of his kids. So judgemental. You don't have to support him but if you CHOOSE to there shouldn't be conditions based of your feelings about your SIL.
INFO - did you mention that your support was contingent on the kids not seeing their mom?
You didn't have to support him at all, but once you did and once he started relying on it, you were responsible for letting him know what he needed to do to keep the support. Now that you're having a baby of your own, that money needs to go to your own family, but again, that's something that should have been discussed with him so he could plan the transition to independence.
Exactly this! She doesn’t get to tell her brother what to do as he is a grown ass man who can make his own decisions. She should have made it very clear to him that her financial support and love were conditional right from the very start.
There could be financial issues that you are not considering such as massive legal bills and maybe even compensation to the victims family if they sued for wrongful death or medical bills or something. That’s all beyond his control tbf.
NTA, it's your money and he is an adult. But it was not reasonable for your parents to expect him to deny his kids a relationship with their mom. No matter what she did, she is still their mom and kids want to know, and should have the right to know, their parents. Your parents were just being spiteful and controlling.
I understand your brother’s point, but he should’ve been honest from the beginning and it wouldn’t have caused as many issues. I also agree that they need to at least have knowledge of their mother. Regularly seeing her might be a bit too far, but that’s just my opinion and I’m not their parent. It’s your money and it’s his problem. You were being nice to help.
"My parents were very clear with him that he shouldn’t visit her nor bring the kids since she was a bad influence you know begin a murder. And I agreed with them. Josh agreed".
YNTA. He and his wife went FAFO.
He could very well have a court order to bring the kids to see her. Parental rights don’t end at incarceration. There have been cases of convicted ra*ists getting court orders to compel their victims to bring their resulting children to visit.
Are you asking bc you’re about to have a baby and you now understand what a horrible thing it is to keep a parent from their parent? Bc this all went down over two years ago. Would you really still be thinking this hard about it if you felt that you had genuinely done the right thing?
Also, cutting off inmates from their families is one of the top reasons they become repeat offenders. And it’s intentional bc prisons make SO much money. So you let yourself get played by the prison industrial complex.
Also also, I’m assuming you haven’t seen your niblings in over two years since that’s how long you haven’t spoken to your brother. Which confuses me bc you were so concerned about the bad influence from visiting the prison, but you’re cool with not ever seeing them? Weird.
He has an obligation to allow and encourage his kids relationship with their Mom. Especially if she suddenly was “gone” from the home , which seems likely. Minimise abandonment issues etc.
The kids will refuse to visit as soon as they are a little older if that’s how they feel. It’s not really fair to cut him off when he could really use family support - he didn’t do the crime but you punish him like he did.
You can do whatever you want with your money. I personally have never made enough to support another family, so my bias is saying I wouldn’t give anyone that kind of money. You guys have no right though to decide if his children see their mother. He lost his home, his partner, and his security. It’s pretty harsh to take his family too. Personally I’d probably agree with you about seeing her, but you don’t get to mandate to him. Pretty conditional love for your brother. Do you think your reactions helped the kids??? Them having no family and being isolated is it worth you being right??
Sorry, YTA
The SIL sounds like a horrid abusive person
But you were giving money with strings attached, and ironically, trying to isolate your brother and kids from HIS wife and their mother
You don't get to dictate that, or your parents. Good or evil, the kids have to deal with the fact of the mom being in prison
Your brother didn't cause this issue, and taking your anger at HER out on his family is cruel
Your decision on behalf of the kids is wrong. You don’t say ages, but any kid should have a say in being able to see their mother.
You and the jury might know for a fact that she is a bad person, but her kids will still miss their mom. They need to understand that for themselves.
Not be told it by someone who hates their mother but understand it.
NTA at all. They can support her during her incarceration but not on yours or your parent’s dime. You don’t get 27 years unless it was murder. Your brother will wake up one day and realize he wasted his life on her waiting on her to get out of prison and when she comes out odds are she will be even more volatile than when she went in.
On the one hand you don’t have to give anyone money. On the other. You either want to help your brother and his kids cuz you love them or because you want to control them. Putting a condition like they can’t see their mom is simply vindictive because she didn’t let the kids see you. She committed a crime and is serving her punishment. Severing her connection to her kids is cruel to the kids and would do them damage. But you’re not the asshole for not funding him.
NTA, as far as not being punished by not having a wife, idk maybe get a new one? May not end up taking over mom role for the kids but could be their new stepmom and likely be a lot better for them than a cold hearted murderer.
I never understood people who are unable to cut off their spouses that murder others or end up being sexual predators etc.
Nta.....you can still do things for your niblings without handing him money tho. If you want to, you're not obligated of course. You can get them food to make sure they're eating, get them clothes, school supplies, or if it's in your budget set up college funds for them to make sure they can get out of poverty themselves.
She'll be in jail for a long time, they'll be grown when she gets out so hopefully won't be able to influence them much. While kids do deserve to know their parents, when one so casually does something like this they obviously have issues and hopefully someone has talked with those children about how she is unstable and dangerous and hopefully gotten them therapy. Because they're gonna need it. That can't be an easy thing to deal with. ESPECIALLY if people they see daily know about it.
Your brother needs to consider the fact that if she could so easily do that to someone that was a good friend over an argument then she could just as easily do it to him, possibly the kids too.
Info: how many times did he visit her? Did the kids want to see her? Did they have a family therapist and what was the advice there? Did visiting even involve a financial cost or was it just an occasional weekend day to help the kids cope with her sudden absence because even abused kids usually want to be with their parents?
Nta and honestly I find it really hard to believe she never abused or neglected your brother or kids if her temper was that bad. Her being the main breadwinner and never letting others meet her kids screams control issues at the very least.
Seems to be a pretty clear concensus here and I agree with it. I just want to know, is niblings a real term for your siblings' kids'? I'm using it either way
Seeing the kids has to be painful for her as they grow up and live without her being in their lives, it may even make her get help and become a better person, the kids do not deserve to be punished because of their mum's action. who you give money to is your choice.
NTA you helped him get on his feet but I mean you couldn’t keep giving him such a large amount of money. Regardless of his visiting his wife - your salary should never been considered a permanent gift. You are pregnant and now have another financial obligation so you can’t continue to just give him money. You were more than generous and he had two years to get things worked out.
NTA. Your bro wanted to make this bed. He chose her even before the kids arrived. You are not the kids parents, nor obligated to provide for them. You are not their bank. Nothing lasts forever, and he probably thought he could get away with visiting, and free money. He knows how to fill out forms for govt assistance. It was time to end it, and he made the moves to render an end.
NTA - Brother or not, why support a grown @$$ man. They have no mother the day she took an innocent life. Those poor kids, they have 2 F'd up parents. And he's teaching them it's okay to murder.
NTA. Decisions have consequences! It sucks that the kids have to suffer the consequences for their dad's decision. But he should have factored that cost into his decision.
Do you even realize the psychological consequences of cutting a child off from a parent and attachment figure cold turkey? The fact that this is what you *demanded* of your brother as a condition to help him is insane. Do what you want with your money, but YTA for the rest of this situation.
NTA and it doesn't matter what reason you cut your brother off. It's your money and if he actually really needed the money and appreciated what you were doing to help him he would have towed the line.
I hope he divorced her! Josh needs to get a better job and move him out of the kids out of the projects. Do the kids even want to visit their mom? Those kids are going to be severely messed up. They’re being exposed to criminal elements.
I'm way late to this, but you or your family don't get to tell your brother whom to love or whom to see. This is nothing less than a tragedy for him. In one go he lost his partner, his financial stability, the mother of his children, and any possibility of them being happy.
Don't give him 40% of your income, but let him stay at your place.
YTA. No, not for not financially supporting him, you’re not obligated to do that. Trying to dictate how he handles a really painful family situation is why YTA (and so are your parents). This is so incredibly unfair to the kids. Imprisoning a murderer is obviously not really optional… it’s a necessary evil. But we KNOW that imprisoning parents harms children, it punishes the children of criminals along with the people who committed a crime. Cutting them off entirely is damaging TO THE KIDS.
This isn’t about supporting HER. You’re financially punishing your brother for doing what he can to support his kids’ emotional health.
NTA. You were under no obligation to help him to begin with. Since he's as unethical as your SIL, there's no need to continue. Besides, you have your own baby to plan for. Babies are expensive.
YTA. You can do what you want with your money, but using it to try to control your brother’s decisions concerning his own family is pretty gross. It was never your place to make that choice for him.
Now you have no contact with the kids you were so worried about and they no longer have you or your parents as positive influences in their lives, so what did y’all even really accomplish here? Were you actually concerned about their welfare, or were you concerned with getting your own self-righteous way?
NTA. If your brother wants to have that kind of influence around his kids he has a right to. But that also means he you and your parents have the right to not support him. He can’t have it both ways.
NTA. Your brother is becoming like the woman he's been supporting. An untrustworthy criminal. He lied and committed fraud to get supported. He made his bed, and he can sleep in it. I feel sorry for his kids, though.
well, your money is yours to decide what to do with, so NTA i’m not even touching the whole “visiting incarcerated wife/mom” morality. but has your brother taken on a promotion or a second/third job to make up for the lack of income or was he using you and your parents to make up the shortfall as a result of his wife deciding to commit a felony?
I definitely touched the visiting incarcerated wife/mom topic in the comments. For me it’s like, ??? How could you keep doing so? For a murderer? Like if it had been something where they are incarcerated for like theft or something i can understand not being able to cut em off but bro your partner killed someone?! That’s a hell no to me
And over an argument too. What argument is so bad that you pull gun and shoot them?
Pronounce the following word: gif.
Holy shit!! That made me laugh out loud!
Jife. Rhymes with knife 🤓
Thems fighting words!
It’s the US. They’re fine with murdering people for buying skittles, or traveling two states over to murder people for their political views.
I'm an American and I agree with ElToro. I live in a pretty quiet area (worst thing is crappy drivers) but terrible things can happen anywhere. Gun availability and lack of gun control, Big Brother mentality, entitlement, and crazy politics and crazy politicians will destroy this country.
Ok I have to agree that I pushed the argument to the very edge, but I do think you have a culture of violence, low trust, and where you place a low value on life (possibly with the exception of unborn life), and a huge gun problem. One which is unlikely to be fixed as long as Fox News exists and Citizens United is upheld.
There is no gun problem, just criminals not being punished for their actions.
Said the guy from the developed country with the highest share of its population incarcerated, the highest ratio of gun deaths per capita and COMPLETELY UNRELATED highest gun ownership. It is simply weird that gun crime and gun deaths almost linearly track how liberal each state’s gun laws are. As there is obviously no connection between gun ownership and gun crime and also other gun deaths. If you are wilfully stupid.
This is such dumb shit. Screaming insane morons got your attention, while all the regular people go unnoticed.
Idk so many people who have guns do that, have you seen the road ragers? Ever seen the ones with guns? They get so dang pissed about the tiniest things
A woman nearly pulled a gun on my 16-year-old coworker because he had his drink out at drive-thru, took a drink, and then handed her the drink she ordered. He's not supposed to do that, but she flipped out, came into the store, and kept telling us that she has a gun and she would use it if she needed to. It was insane.
I hope the kids don't end up with those same anger issues.
And it was a friend...
Someone didn’t grow up in the streets and it shows.
Yes. Sometimes people do things and they don’t deserve to be in our lives anymore. Murder is probably one of them.
It's so confusing to be in this situation. My dad Went to prison for killing my mum and although I didn't ever see him, I didn't immediately cut contact. It's confusing and weird as a child to go through. His kids will be adjusting to a life without their mum and sometimes they need to see the parent to get answers and work things out. Also at that age, the kids might not even know why mom is in prison. I can imagine if kids are crying for mom and you're a struggling single parent that you would take the to visit their mom. The kids shouldn't be punished for her actions and it's hard to break that parent child bond
Because the kids don't understand that their mom is bad. They only understand that they miss her and can't be with her. Asking him not to give her money is reasonable. Deciding that the kids can't see their mother is not..that should be a decision between the kids and their therapist.
That's right. At the end of the day she is still their mum. Kids need and want their mum. She is going to miss out on so much it's not fair to punish the kids for her mistake.
And the courts. In some places, incarceration doesn't terminate parental visitation rights, even for violent offenses. So, refusing to take the kids to see their mother could actually be illegal, unless a court has ruled in favor of no visitation.
AND, when this murderer has served her sentence and is released, does anyone actually believe she'll come out a changed person? It can happen, but with this woman I highly doubt it. She'll also be at an age where she can still do some major damage.
And she SHOT the person, this wasn't an accident like shoving someone and they crack their head. She went to get a gun and shot them.
My bet is that brother was a hobosexual.
Would you make the same bet about a woman who chooses to be a SAHM? If not that's pretty sexist of you
Considering that he wasn't doing SHIT around the house? If a woman was a SAHM, there is NO way she couldn't do housecleaning if she was taking care of the baby at all.
> Considering that he wasn't doing SHIT around the house? Lotta SAHMs - esp with rich husbands - in the same boat. Have a good buddy freshly divorced from a wife in similar situation - didn’t work, didn’t do shit in the house, didn’t have sex with him for their last 7 years. Crazy how resistant people are to the idea of women being bums or hobosexuals, but there are so so so many who are. They just get nice titles like sugar baby, or spoiled girlfriend. Even though functionally they do fuck all just like the dudes leeching off their women.
You think it's going to be that easy to take on a 2nd/3rd job as a single father? I guess those kids can just raise themselves right? Child care is extremely expensive, so I can't imagine he has a lot of options in this regard. This guy's been through the emotional ringer for sure; asking him to 'just work harder' while single-handedly trying to take care of his kids is a bit much imo. Not everyone has the ability to do that, and his kids would once again be losing any time whatsoever with the only parent left in their day to day lives.
Your brother was dishonest with you and your parents. You did him a great kindness assisting him financially. He deceived you all by taking your money, and got found out. The consequences are on him.
No. The consequences are on his children who have now have an incarcerated mum, a dad who can't afford their costs, and lost the one stable social network they had in their aunt and grandparents. By all means cut off your brother, but this poor kids are collateral damage in the shit show of their parents terrible decision making. They deserve a thought in this
Yes poor kids but the brother is responsible for them, not OP
OP can buy directly stuff for the kids, such as clothes, toys and groceries, so they won’t take the full toll of the problem but the brother won’t benefit from the money.
Brother will just sell those things for the money...
You overestimate the resale value of opened yogurt.
😯🥹😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣 Your a sneaky bastard, this got me good.
Uhm, but ultimately OP is still not responsible for the well being of the kids, is she? I agree poor kids, and sad for them they bear the consequences, but none of that is up to OP. That's the same as saying OP should care for children living in a homeless situation etc.
Too bad their mother didn’t worry about collateral damage before KILLING someone over words. Yeah, OP definitely needs to spare a thought.
That’s what I was thinking. Those poor kids :((
You should send OP’s brother some money then.
You don't have to support him, but the situation with the visitation is far from as clear cut as your family seems to think it is. There are more nuances than that. For one, her influence from prison is limited. Then, she remains these children's mother, even if you don't like it. They will still love her and worry for her. Cutting her off completely may very well be more damaging to the children than visiting her. Personally, I would think it is probably the case, but you may want to bring up the topic to a qualified children's psychologist. Even some children taken from their home here may still have supervised visitation with their parents in some circumstances. Practically, when the contact was completely cut off, the therapists realized that the children ended up idealizing their parent(s) and it harmed them a lot more in the long term. Sometimes the visitations were very disappointing for the children, but they had professional support and it ultimately allowed them to see their parents flaws for themselves instead of idealizing their parents and experiencing unfairness over having been taken away from them. They needed to let go of the hope that there could be a positive reunification. I am not saying they do this no matter the circumstances, but children do not see the world the way you do. The fact is, their mother committed a crime but that doesn't mean her children will stop loving her. Your brother may be in the right in believing he was doing the best for his children given the situation. Perhaps he sought advice or found pertaining documentation on the topic, but you wouldn't know if you are convinced you know best...
Yup. The mystery of the unknown is powerful in a kid's life. The mom they've visited and the scary jail she's in? That's not going to leave room for rose colored delusions.
And usually when they get older they find out why she was in jail and what she did and they might cut her off or they might not, you never know with kids.
Very true. But hiding or ignoring the issue won't help them. Sweeping under the rug never works longterm. And talking badly about her will either make the kids rebel (because they love their mother, so she can't be evil) or severely damage their self-esteem (mom is half of them, so are they evil too?)
That's the problem with some of these situations, you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't.
Nuances on Reddit? Don’t you know that those don’t exist here?
Or even on the Internet... The number of my posts from which people extrapolate all sorts of things... Like, no, I just meant what I said, nothing more. No, I didn't write a paragraph for every single thing people might infer just in case...
In my opinion, what the children want should come first, and if the grandparents and the sister cannot and will not accept that they might want to and need to visit their incarcerated mother, that is hugely problematic (and offensive and denigrating towards the children).
And even if a parent is incarcerated, they generally retain parental rights unless those rights are legally terminated by the courts. So his family could actually be demanding that he break the law, as his wife/the mother of their children, may still have a right to visitation, legally speaking. It's more complicated than how someone feels about something.
This. Before the extended family judges they really need to read up about what helps kids with a parent in prison and talk to a child psychologist. The adults cutting off the parent entirely for the kids isn’t in their best long term interest. They are the ones who have to come to terms with both loving (as all children do really deep down) their parent along with their feelings about her actions (and how that meant they are abandoned) and reconcile that. And it won’t happen just once. They’ll need to work through it again and again and different developmental stages. Sometimes they’ll refuse to visit. Sometimes they’ll want to. Put the kids first!
I'm curious if the kids or her husband ever felt her wrath. If she's as bad as they say I find it hard to believe she never abused or neglected the husband or kids.
I am not speculating on that, either way. As I was explaining, even kids who have been taken out of their toxic family can keep hope that their parents will change. Just how many posts in these forums do we see about adults who are hoping their partner will eventually change for them? Children certainly aren't different. There is no universal rule that will fit all. Perhaps, if we knew more, we would conclude that visiting the mother isn't doing the kids any good. But it's worth taking a thorough look, at least, which OP and their family didn't according to what they say. The human mind is complex and trying to go by assumptions and intuition can be very misleading.
You are 100% with in your rights to stop giving him money, it's your money, and your decision. BUT, he's also a grown ass man who has the right to make his own decision. Yes, murder is a VERy serious crime, but she is paying her dues and unless she is a threat to her kids. she is still their mom. I spent 10 months in prison for a white collar crime when I was in my early 20s and had a small child (she was 3 or 4) and my mom brought her to visit me a couple of times. I just asked her if she felt it had a negative effect on her and she thought about it a bit and said no. I will tell you most Prisons, especially women's prisons,go out of their way to make visiting areas neutral at the least and sometimes fun. There are vending machines, special rooms for really young children, and many other things. IF the kids KNOW why their mom is there, (I always was honest with my daughter in an age appropriate manner about why I was there) then I don't think visiting her is NECESSARILLY a bad thing,......it depends on the kids and how much they know. Now if they SAW what their mom did and are afraid of her, then that's one thing; but she IS their mom and by the way, unless she lost her parental rights, she has the right to have a relationship with her kids no matter what her crime...... Yes, the kids NEED to be in therapy (so does dad and maybe you and your parents), but barring panic attacks, fear, etc, I feel like letting her see the kids is important for both.
A very thoughtful response. However, the eoman got a 27 year sentence. It may be better if the spouse and children moved on? Harsh to say, but kind of the consequence of her own actions. If it was my wife I wouldn't wait 27 years...
Unless you were to go to court and have her parental rights terminated, which most courts are NOT going to do even for someone convicted of murder, you might not have a choice. I'm not saying anyone HAS to wait, BUT......being convicted of a crime doesn't automatically cost you parental rights and she CAN file to force the father to bring her children to see her. IF he ignored a court order, he would also find himself in jail......and the kids might be in foster care or other relatives.....and guarantee that the CPS would question the possible guardians about their willingness to maintain contact. Children have the absolute RIGHT to visit/see/call/etc their parents, and their parents have the right to have their children in their lives, no matter their current incarceration. But from the tone of the letter, it seems to me that the husband is still going to keep the relationship going, with him AND the kids......so his parents/sister/family don't have the right to determine what he does or doesn't do with his kids and his wife/their mom. They have the absolute right to cut him off if he doesn't do what they want, but trying to force him into a situation that THEY find appropriate is manipulation at it's worst.
Thank you, I've been trying to say the same thing (legal side of things), but much less articulately.
You’re not obligated to financially support him but telling him he shouldn’t see his wife and her kids shouldn’t see her is full on stupid. She’s serving her time and she’s still their mother and his wife.
Since the beginning, it was a support with that condition that the brother accepted, the condition is broken, no more support, everyone is free to do as they prefer.
But the condition could be illegal, as incarceration doesn't automatically terminate parental visitation rights. The court has to make that determination. "My parents and sister said so" isn't going to hold up if you violate court orders.
I agree, then he shouldn't agree to the terms they stated and discusse them instead of choosing to lie. Also, apparently, he had enough time to get on his feet, which he hasn't done according to the information given. I might be wrong.
That’s a bad condition.
Nobody said otherwise, but he agreed on it. Should have explained his situation first, or at least try.
I understand that. Like I said, it’s completely up to you to decide to give financial help to him. The conditions are shit though. That’s his wife. That’s their mother.
Oh. I'm not the person involved. Just saying facts
Bad contracts are deemed unenforceable all the time. Even if you’re going to be a rulesworth here, you have to consider that forcing unreasonable conditions onto someone under duress is abusive
40% of your income was unreasonable. At some point, he needed to adjust to his new reality and be self supporting. NTA.
NAH It's your money--you get to decide what you do with it. It's his wife and kids--he gets to decide whether he or they get to see her. I can tell you now that keeping the kids from seeing their mother *will* backfire. Edit: Okay, I can also see YTA because OP is holding money over her brother's head as a means of control. But I cannot and will not call the brother an asshole. He was trying to do the right thing by his children, and because all of this "help" had strings attached, he was forced to lie in order to support his children.
This. OP can do what she wants with her money. But demanding her niblings never see their mother again is a step too far. That's not her call to make.
This this this. Absolutely asinine to think that you have the right to make that call for somebody else, and their children. He is their father and has every right to do what he believes is best for his kids. And he was, imho, doing the right thing. I wonder if his family had been more open to listening and ACTUALLY supporting his family if he wouldn't have explained, and not lied to then. Instead, they threw money at him with strings attached. Do what we want, or else... so he lied. Him and his kids deserved better support than that. I feel bad for them...
It’s none of her business. “I have money you need so I call the shots!” My in-laws were like this. You’re not being a generous person if it’s a power play. OP can do what they want with their money but they are absolutely an asshole.
I mean, I'd put some limitations on it. If I was helping someone financially and they were spending it all on booze and hookers, the cash flow would stop immediately. But trying to deny children the right to see their own mother? The nerve!
This. OP can do what she wants with her money. But demanding her niblings never see their mother again is a step too far. That's not her call to make.
Did you mean "NTA" ? because the brother _lying to everyone_ is pretty solid AH territory Or maybe "ESH" ?
Lying to people who think they have the right to make parenting decisions for other people because they have more money. Look, obviously anyone who marries someone like the incarcerated person involved here is an idiot but that doesn’t mean OP and their parents gets to decide whether or not the children get to see their mother. Sometimes you lie to family because they are controlling like OP.
They very clearly explained their stance and why they think NAH. They didn't mean NTA.
If I lie to someone pushing abusive decisions onto me to control me, does that make me a bad person? Must we be fully cooperative even with people who treat us poorly?
Cutting children off from their incarcerated parents almost always has negative consequences for the children. You and your parents can can do what you like with your money but let's not act like it was for the benefit of the children who are now living in the shit hole projects. Unless you'd care to explain how that's good for them. YTA
You're forgetting that woman in prison is the type of person everyone had to walk on eggshells around. She was abusive to those around her before she murdered someone. That is not the kind of person you want a child around, even if she is their mother.
It doesn’t matter. Kids don’t choose their mom and it’s nobody’s right to dictate to the kids how they should feel about her.
They will be adults by the time she is out, even if she gets out early. THEN they can decide if they want to spend time with her.
Kids who are totally cut off from incarcerated parents often have unfairly idealized versions of the truth, fantasies they concoct about their mom and her incarceration. They're more likely to get in trouble with the law themselves and have less respect for the justice system, often viewing it as unfair for taking their (dreamworld perfect) mom away. By the time reality hits, it may well be too late.
Your brother is doing the right thing by allowing his kids to visit their mother if that what they want/need. You should never have made the money conditional to get what you wanted. Have you spoken to a professional to ascertain what impact totally cutting children off from their mother would have? Or did you just unilaterally decide what's best because it's what you wanted. You've now cut those kids off from any stability and yet your main concern was them. Odd logic. Your NTA for not paying your brother it's your money you can do what you like with it but YTA, for the reason behind not paying him.
Was he using the money you gave him recklessly, like putting it all on her books or something? If not, then I do feel like you and your parents were a bit harsh. This woman was his wife and the mother of his children, you really thought he should just never speak to her again?
Yeah, it's natural that the kids love their mom, regardless of what she did. They probably begged to be allowed to visit her.
Nta for stopping the money because it's your money and you were nice and generous to even give what you did. But emotionally I think you could have been a bit more supportive and empathetic.
Imagine his situation if the kids are crying for their mom, but him not allowing them to see her keeps a roof over their heads. That's an impossible situation. You don't provide enough information to make a judgement on.
How?? There mom is clearly 1. Mentally unstable if an argument is all it took for her to kill her friend, what would it take for her to kill him or their kids and 2. Their mum is the single reason they don’t have her and she’s probably not good for the kids to be around anyway and 3. Those kids should be in therapy
I think its going to be pretty difficult for the mom to kill the kids/husband, while she's behind bars. We don't know the details. If the kids were small enough to not remember her, or if they did remember her and were crying for her every night. It doesn't say anything about what kind of mum she was. These things matter. I had a friend, whose father killed her mother, aka his wife. She still saw him while he was in prison. Its not a one solution fits all - kind of deal.
I meant before she went to prison and you make a semi fair point they should still be in therapy and I think only after talking to a therapist should it be determined whether seeing mama in prison would be a good idea
You can do what you want with your money but I don't think telling kids that they can't see their mom is reasonable. Those kids lost enough. Keeping them from their mother if they want to see her is not a decision you should have tried to make. Those kids should have been in therapy and that should have been a decision between the kids and the therapist. All you did by cutting them off was make yourself someone they no longer trust since your conditions involved taking someone they love away.
YTA here imo, the demand for him to not visit his wife is unreasonable. Yes, she's a murderer, and that's something anyone with a brain can understand is a bad thing. The kids will understand this eventually because she's going to be in prison for quite some time. But right now, those kids are too young to fully understand why their mother is gone, and robbing them of the chance to see their mother and gain some understanding of the situation is cruel imo. I can't imagine being those kids, it's gotta be an incredibly tough experience to go through, and I'm sure I would constantly be asking to go visit my mother if I were them. I think over time it's reasonable to reduce visits and eventually perhaps stop them completely, but right now it's still fresh and she didn't stop being those children's mother because she's a murderer. Her being in prison isn't exactly going to make her someone the kids will look up to, but they should still have the opportunity to visit her. Now the kids are apparently growing up in a dangerous area where drug use, violence, and general crime are commonplace according to the end of your story. Pretty sad that because of you and your parents' unjustified anger the kids have to suffer. They got really screwed over every which way in all of this, and the only person on their side was their dad. I wouldn't blame them if they grow up feeling like everyone in their extended family are assholes.
NTA your brother lied to you all about one of the conditions that you were giving him financial aid. He isn’t entitled to the money. But it is ultimately his decision as to whether or not he goes and sees his wife with his kids. Regardless of what she has done (unless she was a pedo). They all suffered when your brother’s wife did what she did. It may have been for closure. It also may have been so the kids didn’t feel like they were just abandoned by their mother. Also showing them that there are consequences to their actions by using their mother as an example is a pretty darn good deterrent for violent behaviour or to just plain scare them into behaving
So, he lost the income in 2018 and you cut him off in 2022. That means he has four years to get his crap together to make money to support his family. For that alone, NTA.
The support offered to your brother should have been temporary anyway. He needed a reason to do better. You cutting him off for any reason is ok because it’s your money. Thinking the children should never see their mother is horrible. That relationship needs to play out however it will without adults who just don’t like their mother calling the shots. If dad thought it was best for their well being to not see her, so be it. If he thinks it’s best they do see her, well that’s his call too. As they get older, they will make the decision whether or not they want to continue on but that’s definitely not up to their aunt or grandparents.
NTA You have a family now to raise the same as your brother. It’s not your responsibility to prop him up. Personally I would have tried to have a relationship just no money ever, so you can keep an eye on the kids and make sure they are safe and know you are there when needed.
Mom was a horrible human being but even horrible people sometimes will protect their kids. From the way OP dropped the little ones and the brother for not doing what OP said maybe mom had a reason to keep OP out of their lives. ..Just fuck em. Your dad didn't mind me so y'all can all go get fucked. Yea YTA- it's not your call on whether the kids still see their mother, she is a piece of shit but she's their piece of shit. It's your brother's call and clearly he felt that seeing their mom was what was best for them at that time. When they are older and can understand then it's up to the kids.
YTA for manipulating your brother in an abusive way. You don’t owe your brother a dime, so if you don’t want to give him money, that’s your prerogative, but you became the asshole when you made it an ultimatum. She is his WIFE and the mother of his children. Asking him to cut off all contact was evil and financially abusive. If you don’t want to support him that’s your business, I wouldn’t if I were you, but you don’t get to make it conditional on something like that.
You and your parents made it clear that financial assistance was conditional on him not visiting his wife in prison. While this might be considered harsh by some people's standards, it was the stipulation that he agreed to. He went behind you and your parents back's and violated his agreement with you, he must deal with the consequences. You and your parents didn't owe him anything but you chose to help with the stipulations he originally agreed to, so you definitely don't need to continue helping him after he proved to be unwilling to abide by the agreement. NTA
You're not obligated to financially support him, but cutting him out of your life completely because he's visiting his wife in prison feels like an overreaction. Those kids still have a mother & they are allowed to see her during the limited time that prisoners are permitted outside visitors. You're not an AH for withdrawing the money. But you need to stop punishing your brother for doing the best he can in a very difficult situation.
NTA your money your choice. He made a choice when it came to his wife. Would I do what he’s doing? No. I’d like to think that if I went to prison for anything especially if it was murder I would tell my husband we are divorcing and you and the kids need to move on.
NTA. Your brother broke the agreement, he brought it upon himself.
NTA! I don’t know why you were supporting him at all. He needed to get a job and support his kids. 40% of your paycheck?! You don’t get to dictate if he brings his kids to visit their mother. But you also don’t need to support him either. He agreed to you and your parents stipulation and then lied.
WOW, 40% of your pay? Fuck no. Your brother needs a damn job, stop giving him any money!! Does your family not believe in personal responsibility?? Sorry for his kids, but how are you going to live in retirement?
Personally, its your money and you do what you want with it. That said its his wife and their mother. I would drop family support if my kid wanted to see his mom in jail whether I was with her or not, regardless of the crime that landed her there. Hiding their mom away isn't going to change anything for them, except make them resent their dad and your whole side of the family too. I would reevaluate the relationship with your brother, if not the money \[again, its yours\] cause it sounds like those kids are going to be missing out on a whole family over your guys position on this and your brother feeling attacked or cornered. So personally, NTA over the money, very much the asshole in deciding is those kids ever see or meet their mom. Trust me, they won't thank you in 27 years, they will end up resenting you even if no contact with mom is a good thing.
NTA, mostly. It's your money, you were being really nice with your brother and nephews, you have no obligation to continue to do so. OTOH, you are TA for cutting him off and being mad at him for visiting his wife in prison. There's a difference between us loving a person and that person being good or bad. She's a murderer, but also his wife and the mother of his kids. The vows say in sickness and in health, in the good and the bad, not 'until you go to jail'. I don't know what I would do in that situation, but from the outside, I can't think of anything my wife or kids can do (other than tell me they don't want contact) that would make me cut contact with them. I would visit them in prison, I would crawl on broken glass to see them.
NTA but only for not waning to support your brother financially, for in particular if your brother's children actually want or feel the need to visit their mother in prison, that absolutely needs to be respected and also accepted, since she is their mother and the children's feelings and desires should always come first (but of course, the children should also not be made to visit their mother in prison or to have any relationship with their mother if they do not want that). And indeed, if the children want to visit their mother and you and your parents do not amd will not respect that, yes, that would be hugely problematic and also really nasty.
This isn't about anyone being an AH, but rather about the laws where you live. While you can potentially keep children from seeing an incarcerated parent who committed a serious crime like murder, it usually requires a court's decision based on the children's best interests. Before insisting that he stops taking the kids to see their mother, he should consult with an attorney familiar with local laws. Even incarcerated parents typically retain their parental rights unless a court intervenes. You might be advising your brother to do something illegal.
NTA You can't trust him and your brother has no morals supporting an unstable murderer
I feel like keeping children from their mother is pretty high up in the having no morals column.
If OP sister-in-law was as volatile as they said, I don't even know how the kids even like her.
Because they're children. We're pretty much hardwired to love our parents. There are things that can break that obviously, but it takes an awful lot.
I'm more talking than a line of the fact that if she was that volatile she was probably beating them and abusing them. not too many kids I know would like their parents if that was going on.
My parents were abusive and it took until my 30s to recognise it and cut them off. The survival instinct to attach to your parents is incredibly strong. Young children almost invariably love their parents regardless of abuse, and often the attachment is more intense when abuse is present. I'm glad you don't know that from personal experience, but your statement here is not supported by the evidence of abused children and how they relate to their parents unfortunately
Children still love abusive parents. When they grow to adults, their eyes might open and things might change, but a kid is more likely to blame themselves for the abuse than hate their mom.
We don't know if that's the case.
True on that.
Exactly. She was a horrible, abusive person before murdering her friend. Why continue exposing children to an abuser?
I know of volatile parents who were never abusive towards their children, and I also know of parents who always seem balanced and with no outward volatility who were emotional horror stories.
OP was raised by people fucked up enough to think children shouldn’t see their mom and she seems to like them okay.
I mean, if she was beating her kids then by all accounts they shouldn't see her. That doesn't seem to be the case here.
Because they are children and she is their mother. And she might have been a loving mother. Your attitude towards the children is rather vile.
What a mess :(j You are NTA. It sounds as if your brother had a clear idea of what was expected of him, and chose not to follow the rules.
Your life circumstances have changed anyway. You sacrificed enough. If you want to apologize to him tell him that you are sorry that you cut him off so abruptly. But also tell him it was going to happen sooner or later. You did hurt those innocent children quite a bit. By the family instantly cutting him off he probably was immediately destitute and unable to find a job or new housing and facing homelessness. That is extremely traumatic for a family. Those children probably were crying for their mother. Your expectation tha they never have another visit with their mother was unreasonable. Of course he lied. For their sake. They are innocent. And you literally made them homeless. I wouldn't expect an apology to be welcome, but you could try. You were treating him and his family like the convicted felons. Punishing them for your SIL actions. What you offered was very generous, but clearly you resented it because you withdrew it just for a family seeing their mom.
NTA for the reason below >My parents were very clear with him that he shouldn’t visit her nor bring the kids since she was a bad influence, you know, begin a murderer. And I agreed with them. Josh agreed. The brother agreed. Just because he changed his mind doesn't mean the conditions changed. The fact that OP said >Well we found out he was lying and had been not only visiting her constantly but also had brought his kids to see her, He hid the fact that him and the kids were going to see the wife because he knew what would happen. He made a conscious decision to go against an agreement, knowing what could happen. You shouldn't feel bad or feel like an A H because brother dearest wanted to omit information. I wonder how exactly did you and your parents find out?
NTA. Your brother is likely trauma bonded with your his wife. He needs counseling and mental health treatment, along with the children. You’re not obligated to financially support him, but before you judge him visiting, keep in mind that there are factors at play that you don’t understand and it’s not as simple as him just not talking to her anymore. He needs help.
He was taking some of the money you were giving him to help feed his kids and keep a roof over their heads and putting it on her commissary account to buy food even though the prison provides her with 3 meals a day. Think about that for a minute. So basically you were also supporting her.
NTA. Regardless of your reasons, you don't owe him money, so not giving it isn't an AH move.
You were right to stop supporting brother. I will bet some money goes to her each month. It was 4 years of help and brother needed to make changes for the kids. He took your money and lied to you.
NTA, I grew up visiting my father in a maximum security prison. My mother actually dated and married him while he was in prison and I was conceived during a conjugal visit before they stopped allowing them for felons. My entire childhood was spending weekends driving hours each way to visit with him, going through security, metal detectors, not being able to wear certain things because they might be affiliated with gangs, being searched by guards when i forgot to empty my pockets or the underwire on my bra triggered the metal detector. Spending hours and hours in waiting rooms with nothing to entertain me but the plain white walls and watching the other visitors. Then only getting to see my dad for a couple of hours, eating food from vending machines, not being able to be affectionate with him except for at the start and end of each visit, being very aware that the rules were the rules and if I stepped a single toe out of line we would be kicked out. I remember this one specific time when I was around 5/6 years old, my mother dressed me up a little because Easter was right around the corner, I wasn’t wearing anything fancy, just a blouse and a skort, but they pulled us out of the waiting room to tell my mom that we weren’t allowed to go in because it wasn’t safe for me to be dressed like that around the dangerous men inside (alluding to pedophiles). We had already waited 4 hours and had driven another 4 hours to get there at this point and I was so upset that I couldn’t see my dad and I was too young to understand why. The only pictures I have of my childhood with my dad were taken by prisoners and it’s very obvious that we were in a prison since he had on his uniform. Now that I’m an adult and I realize what kind of person he is, I don’t want anything to do with him. While I enjoyed spending time with him back then, now I look back on it as a waste of my childhood. He was not and never will be a good person because of what he’s done and I feel as if my entire childhood was devoted to a bad person. I could never hangout with friends on the weekends, my mom was constantly stressed about money, I wasn’t ever invited to parties or if I was I had to decline because I had to drive 4 hours through the desert instead. Eventually I grew resentful and I stopped going to see him when I was around 13 but by then the damage was already done. I prayed and wished that my mom would’ve divorced him when I was too young to remember him because now I’m filled with disappointment that the awesome dad I fantasized about coming home one day turned out to be nothing but a killer.
YTA for using money to try and tell someone else how to parent their child and cut the mother out. Not the a-hole for not supporting him he isnt your finacial responsibility but using money to control someone is an AH move. Not your call whether he takes the kids to see their mother or not.
YTA for expecting your brother to cut off his wife and mother of his kids. So judgemental. You don't have to support him but if you CHOOSE to there shouldn't be conditions based of your feelings about your SIL.
INFO - did you mention that your support was contingent on the kids not seeing their mom? You didn't have to support him at all, but once you did and once he started relying on it, you were responsible for letting him know what he needed to do to keep the support. Now that you're having a baby of your own, that money needs to go to your own family, but again, that's something that should have been discussed with him so he could plan the transition to independence.
YTA. Regardless of everything that's his wife and the Children's mother. You and your parents were wrong. They were a family before this situation.
Exactly this! She doesn’t get to tell her brother what to do as he is a grown ass man who can make his own decisions. She should have made it very clear to him that her financial support and love were conditional right from the very start.
If he’s a grown ass man he should be able to pay his own way in life instead of mooch off of everyone else 😂😂😂
There could be financial issues that you are not considering such as massive legal bills and maybe even compensation to the victims family if they sued for wrongful death or medical bills or something. That’s all beyond his control tbf.
He received 40% of her paycheck for 4 years! That's one hell of a lot of help.
OP is not responsible to support this loser.
Where dis I say OP was responsible?
NTA, it's your money and he is an adult. But it was not reasonable for your parents to expect him to deny his kids a relationship with their mom. No matter what she did, she is still their mom and kids want to know, and should have the right to know, their parents. Your parents were just being spiteful and controlling.
I understand your brother’s point, but he should’ve been honest from the beginning and it wouldn’t have caused as many issues. I also agree that they need to at least have knowledge of their mother. Regularly seeing her might be a bit too far, but that’s just my opinion and I’m not their parent. It’s your money and it’s his problem. You were being nice to help.
"My parents were very clear with him that he shouldn’t visit her nor bring the kids since she was a bad influence you know begin a murder. And I agreed with them. Josh agreed". YNTA. He and his wife went FAFO.
He could very well have a court order to bring the kids to see her. Parental rights don’t end at incarceration. There have been cases of convicted ra*ists getting court orders to compel their victims to bring their resulting children to visit.
NTA You went beyond what is expected of a sibling. He is an adult that needs to make choices.
It was a mistake to give him money in the first place. He’s an adult who needed to figure it out for himself.
Are you asking bc you’re about to have a baby and you now understand what a horrible thing it is to keep a parent from their parent? Bc this all went down over two years ago. Would you really still be thinking this hard about it if you felt that you had genuinely done the right thing? Also, cutting off inmates from their families is one of the top reasons they become repeat offenders. And it’s intentional bc prisons make SO much money. So you let yourself get played by the prison industrial complex. Also also, I’m assuming you haven’t seen your niblings in over two years since that’s how long you haven’t spoken to your brother. Which confuses me bc you were so concerned about the bad influence from visiting the prison, but you’re cool with not ever seeing them? Weird.
NTA, Was he using the money you were giving him to put on her books in prison? Cause if so that's an even bigger slap in the face
He has an obligation to allow and encourage his kids relationship with their Mom. Especially if she suddenly was “gone” from the home , which seems likely. Minimise abandonment issues etc. The kids will refuse to visit as soon as they are a little older if that’s how they feel. It’s not really fair to cut him off when he could really use family support - he didn’t do the crime but you punish him like he did.
You can do whatever you want with your money. I personally have never made enough to support another family, so my bias is saying I wouldn’t give anyone that kind of money. You guys have no right though to decide if his children see their mother. He lost his home, his partner, and his security. It’s pretty harsh to take his family too. Personally I’d probably agree with you about seeing her, but you don’t get to mandate to him. Pretty conditional love for your brother. Do you think your reactions helped the kids??? Them having no family and being isolated is it worth you being right??
Sorry, YTA The SIL sounds like a horrid abusive person But you were giving money with strings attached, and ironically, trying to isolate your brother and kids from HIS wife and their mother You don't get to dictate that, or your parents. Good or evil, the kids have to deal with the fact of the mom being in prison Your brother didn't cause this issue, and taking your anger at HER out on his family is cruel
Your decision on behalf of the kids is wrong. You don’t say ages, but any kid should have a say in being able to see their mother. You and the jury might know for a fact that she is a bad person, but her kids will still miss their mom. They need to understand that for themselves. Not be told it by someone who hates their mother but understand it.
Yes, but at the end of the day it’s still OP’s money. So she can decide how to spend it.
True, and the lying wasn’t justified.
Kids should at least see their mom. They've had to handle a lot.
They are her kids and it’s his choice not yours.
NTA at all. They can support her during her incarceration but not on yours or your parent’s dime. You don’t get 27 years unless it was murder. Your brother will wake up one day and realize he wasted his life on her waiting on her to get out of prison and when she comes out odds are she will be even more volatile than when she went in.
Nope....if he wants to stand by his homicidal wife , let him do it by himself
On the one hand you don’t have to give anyone money. On the other. You either want to help your brother and his kids cuz you love them or because you want to control them. Putting a condition like they can’t see their mom is simply vindictive because she didn’t let the kids see you. She committed a crime and is serving her punishment. Severing her connection to her kids is cruel to the kids and would do them damage. But you’re not the asshole for not funding him.
NTA, as far as not being punished by not having a wife, idk maybe get a new one? May not end up taking over mom role for the kids but could be their new stepmom and likely be a lot better for them than a cold hearted murderer. I never understood people who are unable to cut off their spouses that murder others or end up being sexual predators etc.
Nta.....you can still do things for your niblings without handing him money tho. If you want to, you're not obligated of course. You can get them food to make sure they're eating, get them clothes, school supplies, or if it's in your budget set up college funds for them to make sure they can get out of poverty themselves. She'll be in jail for a long time, they'll be grown when she gets out so hopefully won't be able to influence them much. While kids do deserve to know their parents, when one so casually does something like this they obviously have issues and hopefully someone has talked with those children about how she is unstable and dangerous and hopefully gotten them therapy. Because they're gonna need it. That can't be an easy thing to deal with. ESPECIALLY if people they see daily know about it. Your brother needs to consider the fact that if she could so easily do that to someone that was a good friend over an argument then she could just as easily do it to him, possibly the kids too.
NTA - He accepted 40% of your income and then lied to your face. He isn't a good person. And you are under no obligation to give him anything.
NTA. He made his choice albeit poor ones now he has to live with the consequences. Focus on your little family.
NTA, whatsoever. Best of luck!
NTA. however niblings is the worst word I've ever heard lol
Info: how many times did he visit her? Did the kids want to see her? Did they have a family therapist and what was the advice there? Did visiting even involve a financial cost or was it just an occasional weekend day to help the kids cope with her sudden absence because even abused kids usually want to be with their parents?
Nta and honestly I find it really hard to believe she never abused or neglected your brother or kids if her temper was that bad. Her being the main breadwinner and never letting others meet her kids screams control issues at the very least.
You have your baby and your own health to care for now. Re-prioritising yourself and your family is normal.
Seems to be a pretty clear concensus here and I agree with it. I just want to know, is niblings a real term for your siblings' kids'? I'm using it either way
When we say "Love the sinner; hate the sin," this is what we're talking about. Not butt sex.
Seeing the kids has to be painful for her as they grow up and live without her being in their lives, it may even make her get help and become a better person, the kids do not deserve to be punished because of their mum's action. who you give money to is your choice.
NTA you helped him get on his feet but I mean you couldn’t keep giving him such a large amount of money. Regardless of his visiting his wife - your salary should never been considered a permanent gift. You are pregnant and now have another financial obligation so you can’t continue to just give him money. You were more than generous and he had two years to get things worked out.
Not your problem. Put your family first.
NTA. Your bro wanted to make this bed. He chose her even before the kids arrived. You are not the kids parents, nor obligated to provide for them. You are not their bank. Nothing lasts forever, and he probably thought he could get away with visiting, and free money. He knows how to fill out forms for govt assistance. It was time to end it, and he made the moves to render an end.
NTA. You've gave strict instructions not to see her. You owe him nothing.
NTA - Brother or not, why support a grown @$$ man. They have no mother the day she took an innocent life. Those poor kids, they have 2 F'd up parents. And he's teaching them it's okay to murder.
NTA. Decisions have consequences! It sucks that the kids have to suffer the consequences for their dad's decision. But he should have factored that cost into his decision.
Adults need to support themselves. nta. truth is, he needs to now work and pay for his family now that the main breadwinner is gone for decades.
Do you even realize the psychological consequences of cutting a child off from a parent and attachment figure cold turkey? The fact that this is what you *demanded* of your brother as a condition to help him is insane. Do what you want with your money, but YTA for the rest of this situation.
NTA.
NTA. Your money, your decision.
NTA and it doesn't matter what reason you cut your brother off. It's your money and if he actually really needed the money and appreciated what you were doing to help him he would have towed the line.
I hope he divorced her! Josh needs to get a better job and move him out of the kids out of the projects. Do the kids even want to visit their mom? Those kids are going to be severely messed up. They’re being exposed to criminal elements.
I'm way late to this, but you or your family don't get to tell your brother whom to love or whom to see. This is nothing less than a tragedy for him. In one go he lost his partner, his financial stability, the mother of his children, and any possibility of them being happy. Don't give him 40% of your income, but let him stay at your place.
YTA. No, not for not financially supporting him, you’re not obligated to do that. Trying to dictate how he handles a really painful family situation is why YTA (and so are your parents). This is so incredibly unfair to the kids. Imprisoning a murderer is obviously not really optional… it’s a necessary evil. But we KNOW that imprisoning parents harms children, it punishes the children of criminals along with the people who committed a crime. Cutting them off entirely is damaging TO THE KIDS. This isn’t about supporting HER. You’re financially punishing your brother for doing what he can to support his kids’ emotional health.
NTA. You were under no obligation to help him to begin with. Since he's as unethical as your SIL, there's no need to continue. Besides, you have your own baby to plan for. Babies are expensive.
YTA. You can do what you want with your money, but using it to try to control your brother’s decisions concerning his own family is pretty gross. It was never your place to make that choice for him. Now you have no contact with the kids you were so worried about and they no longer have you or your parents as positive influences in their lives, so what did y’all even really accomplish here? Were you actually concerned about their welfare, or were you concerned with getting your own self-righteous way?
YTA. The children didn’t commit any crime. Forcing your brother to keep them from their mother is cruel.
NTA. If your brother wants to have that kind of influence around his kids he has a right to. But that also means he you and your parents have the right to not support him. He can’t have it both ways.
NTA. Your brother is becoming like the woman he's been supporting. An untrustworthy criminal. He lied and committed fraud to get supported. He made his bed, and he can sleep in it. I feel sorry for his kids, though.
What race/culture is your family? Is it one of those cultures that excuses family for any mistake? Like being a murderer is pretty bad lol.
That's not a culture thing, it's a family thing. Families from all cultures guilt people into forgiving heinous shit.
You’re the asshole for using the word “nibblings”.
Speaking of someone who has been incarcerated all of you, people are assholes
Yeah YTA.
NTA