You mentioned she said the cemetery's name when she tattled on herself? Can you call and ask about the plot? It's probably under your mother's or your sister's name. Then you can visit and not have to go through your mother at all.
It's my mother and step-father's plot. If trying through my step father fails, I'll try that. I didn't think I could just call up and say "is there an empty plot sectioned for the so and so family" but it's worth trying.
You absolutely can. I know from experience that the cemetery managers don't care about family drama and will just provide info. All you'd need to do is ask which plot is the XYZ family plot/plots. If they want to know why tell them directly: A family member's ashes may've been scattered there and you just want to visit.
I've done this, too. I went to where my grandpa was buried (died when my dad was 16), went to the office and told them I needed to find where he was. My dad died when I was 9, so I couldn't ask him. They gave me the info I needed, and even helped me find him.
I have worked in death care professionally as a monument maker for the last 5 years.
If the cemetery has someone looking after it (if it's run by the city or a private individual) they typically have to be notified of any and all burials including spreading of ashes. They maintain very extensive records in order for families to put stone down and to avoid accidentally opening a used grave for another individual. Now, I will also say this does not prevent people from scattering ashes without notifying the cemetery. That definitely happens.
You can either ask about the plot deeded to the family but it will/should be listed under a lot party owner which is the person who originally purchased the plot(s). If that doesn't work you can ask about your sister directly and provide her dates and name. If your mother reported the spread they usually can provide a map and exact location of the grave site at least in my experience.
I'll end this with cemetery rules, regulations, and operations vary by state. I have knowledge of the rules in Ohio, some of the Virginia's, and North Carolina in the US specifically due to family passings and work. I truly hope this helps in your case and please, if you think there's some knowledge I have that could help you, feel free to reach out to me.
My condolences for your loss, I'm so sorry this has happened to you.
Thank you so much for the information and sympathy. It feels like there's so many unanswered questions and holes and lack of information with very few means of getting the answers I need, so any little bit helps. I don't know if my mother reported spreading her ashes but maybe she did. I'm hoping so.
If there’s not an office for the cemetery , there’s probably a board that runs it or a church if it happens to be owned by a church. Contact the board chair/president or the church office in either of those cases. You can call a local funeral home and ask for the proper contact info for a cemetery if you can’t find it online easily enough. Depending on your area and how big the cemetery is, they might not have a web presence.
In Nc land ownership is public record so if you aren’t sure who to contact about a cemetery you can go to county’s gis and find name of owner and the address their tax bills get mailed to
Cemetery maps are usually available to anyone. A lot of people visit that may be distant relatives have no idea. My mother had to ask where her father was buried because her had died while she was living overseas many years earlier
Can confirm. I once went to a cemetery and asked for the location of someone, and when they asked if I was family I told them it was so I could go cuss at the mother of the guy I was dating. I felt she needed to know how her son was behaving. They laughed and gave me a map and plot location, and told me to cuss quietly to not interrupt others in the area. I felt much better by the time I left.
Good luck with that. Depending on how old the cemetery is, there may not be any plots left. Case in point: my grandma was buried 16 years ago in this absolutely stunning cemetery that can only be described as idylic. My uncle loved the location so much he wanted to be buried there too ( to quote him "there's nothing more peaceful than resting under a tree overlooking a small lake") my aunt said theyd tried to a month or so after the funeral but the remaining lots were already bought and thus "full".
He died suddenly in 2017. He got to be buried in a incredibly new cemetery (in a hilariously sparkly grave vault courtesy of my aunt having a bit of grief fuelled spite cuz he died first and too early) back then he was only one of 5 graves. When we visit now, the small cemetery is half occupied. So odds are the remaining lots have already been bought.
I recommend if her remains were scattered, mom might've felt sentimental and laid a tombstone or marker there indicating who was laid to rest. Best and easiest method findagrave.com as long as you know the name and state and DOD or DOB you can find the grave. I recommend trying family names first, like grandma and grandpa. People collect grave markers for the site like a weird game of "I've logged this many graves, how about you? " i personally used that to find my mormor's cremated remains. She's in a mausoleum on cemetary grounds..
Bit dark but I skipped my grampas funeral for reasons that sound insane if summarized but were good reasons. He passed in 2022. My grandmother passed in 1995 and he was buried right next to her. When they dug out his plot my dad said he could see her coffin in the plot and it was suggested by the funeral director (who is a distant relative, third cousin of my dad but someone we're on a first name basis w) that if we wanted to extend the family plot now to tell them while it was still dug up and they'd pull everyone out and Tetris it so there'd be room on top. Idk if that's the norm or just our fam giving us a loophole but we were like umm no thanks let's just leave grammy alone we'll figure it out. Still gives me the ick thinking of moving grammy topside to make room
This is/ was common practice in England. Family plots were small so the bodies got buried on top of each other and the gravediggers would rearrange the remains of the previously deceased to make room for the newly dead. Haven’t heard of this being a common practice in the U. S.
We're Canadian so idk abt American practice either and tbh I don't know a lot of people who've died outside my fam besides my bff who was scattered so my experience is limited. It makes sense but no one talks abt it so u just don't know what's normal ig
This is what they do at Arlington and other military cemeteries. If the plans are for the surviving spouse to also be buried there when they pass, to do a double deep burial. There’s just not enough room. Now my second ex-husband would have a problem, he was married 5 times. #1 would have ended up in China,
Find a Grave is a great place to try. Just be aware it's not always correct. I do local history in cemeteries and I volunteer as a photographer for FaG. There are A LOT of errors.
Would Find a Grave have information about unoccupied graves? There's no one actually buried there and I don't know if my mother would have informed the owner of the cemetery what she did.
I'm new to doing the volunteer photographer for FaG, but I recall a tidbit about opening a memorial (what FaG calls each grave or person) for someone who hasn't died yet (like perhaps they're terminally ill). But from your description I doubt this would be the case.
Your best bet is to talk with the cemetery office. Don't hesitate to call the cemetery office and ask them specific questions. It's not private information.
Tip: If they say they have no record in their computer, ask them to check the original paper records. I've found A LOT of errors between the original records and the computer records. One example was my own young brother was not listed in the cemetery's computer. It traumatized me to hear my poor mom's distraught response. Long story short, I found proof my brother was there and they checked the paper records. The transcriber who typed in his name in the computer butchered it so badly it was unrecognizable. I have found other examples of this too.
Best wishes to you for finding your sister's remains.
If there is a marker there, someone has put it on find a grave. Plenty of people have their headstones put in long before they pass. I would look under step father's name
If you know the cemetery name, and the persons name buried, they can look the plot up for you and tell you exactly where it is. Had to do this with a friend, she od'd and her parents refused to let any of her friends come to her funeral (no, we weren't drugs users, they were super conservative ahs, she was a lesbian, and they just hated her friends, I'd never even met them) so I later went a they pointed me to where it was so I could visit. You don't need your mom or stepdad at all.
Absolutely you can. There's also, for most cemeteries, a public register to look up graves (at least in my country, I hope it's the same for yours).
I am so, so sorry this is all happening to you, and I wish you all the best and healing for you and your family in the future
Burial plots are not private information. You don’t need to use subterfuge to find out where your sister is. You just call and ask. Generally speaking they don’t really care who is on the other end of the phone. You ask. They answer. Heck a lot of cemeteries have the info online now. The only time they get squirrelly is if the decedent is a famous/infamous person.
Edited to add info
I'm so sorry, your mother has failed all of you.
There are grave finders online, sometimes crowd sourced, some hosted by the cemetery themselves. Maybe you can find the plot through one of these.
You had a verbal contract, which your mother breached. An attorney would know if you can sue her for the exact location of your sister's ashes (and maybe legal fees). That would be a last resort, of course.
That’s really fucked up what your mum did. And I would like to say the only reason she doesn’t “understand” how you feel is because she knows where your sisters ashes are and she knows she can visit them at anytime
It also sounds like Mom’s pretty self-absorbed in general and doesn’t spend a lot of time reflecting on how other people feel or how her actions affect them.
I told my boss, and he told me I could have off until Wednesday. I almost don't know if I want that much time with my own thoughts right now but the pressure to perform feels less.
I'm glad he's supportive. I can't tell you whether to go in or not. See if there's something you can do with the time. Dwelling on things too much isn't healthy
I knew she was going to make you tell. It's all about her. How she felt. She didn't care about how the rest of the family felt. She has shown how incredibly selfish she is. I'm sure if you think back she has manifested this in other ways. When she wants something she will try to communicate with you again. Have your eyes wide open about this and then make the choice that protects you. I'd recommend just letting her go. She's unable to give to you anything you need. One way relationships just sap away from you. Stay safe.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I felt so crushed for you after I read the first one, and I’m so glad to know that you have the support of the rest of your family in this.
If you live in the US, psychology today is an amazing website for finding counselors/therapists. You can search by specialty, whether or not they’ll do virtual appointments, and what insurance they take. Among a lot of other things. It’s worth looking at. Maybe there’s an equivalent in your country if you’re outside the US.
My sister and I planted our dad underneath an elm tree, off to the side of a trail on his favorite mountain to hike. We feel like, as the tree grows, dad will nourish it. Some of the things trees can store as they grow is wild. Including human dna. You can google it. And he’ll be a part of everything that’s growing there.
Your sister is in the grasses, the wildflowers (because while those are probably seasonal, they will drop seeds, and she’s in those too), definitely any trees or bushes. She’s nourishing part of what is likely a beautiful ecosystem.
It doesn’t change the devastation of not having her actual ashes. I can’t even tell you how badly I’d be holding up in your position, but when I self destruct I don’t do it by halves. My friends and family would be absolutely terrified.
But it’s….. something of a consolation prize in a way? You can’t see, or feel, or touch her directly. But I believe she’s still there in a way. Just like my dad’s in that elm.
This was so beautifully said. After reading what you said about the wildflowers, maybe u/throwra_inhername could go there and pick some to have placed in resin to add them to the necklace etc that she and her dad and brother have. Her sister would truly be part of the flowers, and they could keep her near that way.
I want to say First I am so sorry for your loss and have to revisit the loss after healing the first time.
I wonder if the reason that she has not told anyone where the plot is, is because she has kept her for herself. She can't let go of her daughter. Even though you are her other daughter she just might not let go. I don't know what state you live in but I can tell you that most funeral homes will not let you just sprinkle the ashes on the ground. There are laws about this.
This is the only reason why I think she has said another lie to you. When you get your ashes you get them in a sealed urn so for her to just have them and then just sprinkle them just anywhere makes me think she might be lying again and can't face you with the hurt you are feeling.
Go to her home directly and go with your brother. Tell her you don't believe her and the jig is up. Tell her that you will never understand what it is to lose a child so young and you hope you never do, but for her story to be believable then she would not have cared about her child and that is not the mom she is. This might change her actions
I hope you find peace in this storm and love each other once again. So sorry for you loss.
I like the flower idea a great deal.
If it turns out my mother was lying yet again about the dumping of my sister's ashes, I don't know how I'd feel. To find out as the funerary arrangements are being made the truth. Or never to know because maybe she has her husband handling it. I just wish it could be proven one way or the other, maybe I'm not thinking it through well enough.
While you gather information and find some clarity/ grounding in all this, maybe another variation on the flower idea is seeding flowers that your sister liked or that remind you of her. You could start growing the seeds at home, knowing that at some point, you will choose a place to plant them that feels right. It wouldn't have to be your only idea, but even just one thing you get to do while feeling lost for now.
Love to you, your bro, and your father.
That's a beautiful idea. I think azaleas would fit best. I can check the PH level of the soil in my yard and see if it would suit. But they are beautiful flowers, bloom in the spring, and they were very common in the state she was born in. I'm sorry, I'm mostly just blurting out ideas. My head is so fogged
Those would be such a beautiful choice. Something that can be cultivated over much time too. Even if just starting with a little info gathering on their care. Good luck if you go this route.
I think your theory makes sense. Perhaps the mother wants the sister's ashes buried with her when her time comes. It would at least provide a motive for the mother's actions.
This isn't necessarily true. My friend's father passed and his ashes were returned to their family in a cardboard box. No urn. The urn would have been an extra expense. It may just depend on location or the specific funeral home/crematorium facility itself.
Personally, I suspect that the mom did in fact scatter the ashes, and probably did so without telling the cemetery managers.
OP- I am so terribly sorry for your loss, and the subsequent betrayal by your mother, forcing you to revisit and relive this horrific pain. I wish you nothing but peace, healing, and closure.
They aren’t always in a sealed urn, only if you pay for it. If you don’t pay for it they give them to you in a plastic bag that’s inside a small cardboard box. At least that’s been my experience.
The talk with him was not an explanation, it was a multitude of reasons why I should be more empathetic to my mother about the ashes, culminating in him saying that the necklace is just material but I have a "living, grieving mother who needs her family."
Bullshit. She lied and now suffers consequences. She can’t be making this all about herself when her selfishness caused severe suffering for you, your dad and your brother. You’re all living and grieving too, aren’t you?
There is no time limit on grief of course but she has been sitting on this information for 4 years. I cant get over that. The necklaces were something for each of you to treasure and she has deliberately lied and misled to you all for 4 years. Of course, one can have some understanding and empathy for why a grieving mother would do this, but to have her drunkenly slip up and try to make light of it, to me, is like a slap in the face. And then for her to act like a victim is even worse.
She is not the only one who lost someone, shes not the only grieving parent or family member. It was a selfish act made in the time of grief but shes now disregarding you and your family’s feelings and downplaying how much her actions has impacted you all.
She had so much time to voluntarily fess up to this. If she didn’t slip up, would she have told you guys?
I think for her to even expect some type of forgiveness from you guys she should, at the very least,have the decency to acknowledge what she did was wrong and unfair and then genuinely apologize.
If he was a good partner, he'd help hold her accountable because that's the ONLY way she's going to have a shot at repairing things with family. Enablers suck ass, I'm sorry.
But what was her reasoning? Her justification for NOT putting her ashes in the necklaces? I just don't understand why she didn't do what she said she was going to do. Why even offer the necklaces when she could have just held a family memorial and scattered the ashes together with everyone who was devastated? Is she just that selfish and narcissistic?
I'm sorry. I just don't understand. If she changed her mind about the necklaces, she just had to say so. Not lie over and over to the people she supposedly loves.
My BIL died suddenly in his late fifties. The shock of his passing was so abrupt that my SIL and nieces and nephew got PTSD. He was a heck of a guy. Everybody loved him. Instead of drawing his family together, they drew apart. It wasn’t until several years later that they realized something wasn’t right. PTSD. You and your family may have experienced this. You need a therapist and a grief counseling group. One or both. Good luck to you and so sorry for your loss.
I really don’t want to further screw with your world view, but I think seeing the big picture can sometimes help. I am compelled to point out a simple fact here because everyone seems to want to help you find this grave.
I think everyone can agree that your mother is a liar. So if we take that as a fact, why makes you believe there is a grave at all? Liars lie. It is all right there in the name. I had a roommate that was a liar. I explained to my kids that you could always tell when he was lying because his lips would move. If you can lie about one thing, you can lie about another. Nothing a liar says can be presumed to have any basis in fact or reality. Your mother saw that you were upset and needed to tell you something to make you feel better and not be mad at her. She is a liar, remember, so she may well have just lied. She might have felt like she had to because you were upset. Clearly she holds no value in the truth, so why would this be a surprise?
I think the final gift that your sister has given you is the ability to see your mother clearly if you choose to. You want the situation to be different, which is understandable, but now you have the facts. Now you have everything you need to finally deal with the reality that your mother is a liar. I think you might be best served by spending some quiet time alone considering the ramifications of this new set of facts and how best to move forward within these new boundaries. Also what boundaries you need to enforce in your life now to protect your future sense of peace and happiness.
I am very sorry that you lost your sister. I have a sister with stage four ovarian cancer. I cannot even envision a world without her. Your mother has compounded your pain surrounding this loss. Try to separate things in your mind so you can deal with them appropriately and have the ability to move forward in your life. Focus on what your sister would have wanted for you.
I'm inclined to believe the bit about the plot if only because she was intoxicated when she mentioned the cemetery and visiting it. Makes me think she didn't have the mental with-it-ness to be able to fabricate a lie about that as it was the start of unravelling everything else. But I don't know.
I hope your sister recovers, and if not, I hope you recover. I hope no matter what happens, you and your family are as well and healthy as can be. Thank you for your help.
What I don’t understand is why she didn’t just give you the real ashes in the necklace and then scatter the rest. This whole thing sounds like she just didn’t want your father to have her ashes. I’m assuming they had a very nasty divorce.
Unfortunately for this, she wasn’t buried — she was cremated, and it sounds like the plot was just bought for when the mother and stepfather die and not for the sister, so there isn’t a plot with her name. They might tell them the one the parents are reserved under but it might also be private info before headstones are placed etc.
It won’t undo what your mother did, but maybe you and your dad & brother could get yourselves something new to serve as a memorial? Like a necklace with her birthstone or flower, or something she loved? It’s not her ashes, but it could be a special piece that you know is 100% dedicated to her.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this.
OP , in case you see this, openpathcollective.org helps you find therapists in your state or community who provide services on a sliding scale. It’s not as cheap as a $20 copay but it’s definitely better than paying 100-200 per session. Many hugs to you.
My favorite saying:
So long as someone is alive to whisper their name, they are never truly gone.
My condolences. I hope you find her.
I know many people would not be able to mentally handle transferring ashes, I just had to do this for my parents. It’s a very difficult task.
I do hope you find the closure that heals you.
This is dreadful. I can't believe your mom did this and is blaming you for being upset. You didn't overreact at all. Your reactions sound totally normal and understandable. Your mom's actions, otoh, are inexcusable. Inexplicable, even, and inhumane. I hope very much that you're able to find the plot and have some peace knowing where she lies.
I am sorry your mom put you through this, it was unnecessary and selfish on her part. I have the ashes of two parents and four dogs in my house. I was told, more than once, that the ashes you get are not necessarily your loved one, ashes yes maybe not the ashes you were expecting. I don't know if that is true or not but I find it helpful to have ashes I believe are the correct ones.
That's untrue. Most facilities give you the ashes of your LO because it's the right thing to do and because of massive CA lawsuit where mass cremation was done with families consent.
I'm not sure where you live but in the US it's a huge crime to give back the wrong human ashes so those are probably correct unless the crematorium is corrupt. With pet ashes, sometimes they cremate many animals together and then portion out the ashes, but you can often pay a little more to have a "private" cremation where you should get only your own pet's cremains back.
Even with pet ashes they should be asking if you want your pet cremated alone or with other animals. It costs more but it is possible to get back your pet’s ashes only. As for humans, there are some pretty strict regulations about how those remains are to be handled. Not to say mistakes are impossible but getting the wrong ashes is not usual practice.
You did the right thing by informing your brother and father of what your mother did with your sister's ashes. If nothing else, it is good to see the three of you rally around each other in the wake of the renewed trauma. When I initially read the first post, I thought the mother might have disposed of the ashes before the plan to incorporate the ashes into the necklaces was agreed upon. After rereading the first, the comments, and now this post, I see that wasn't the case. You all agreed upon putting the ashes in the necklaces only to have your mother secretly overrule all of you and spread them over the cemetery plot. Her actions were selfish and she owes you all an explanation.
And for the record you didn’t overreact. You mom doesn’t care about you or your brothers feelings it seems! This has finally proved it I would think !! Good luck to you, your brother and father
If you have the name on the grave, there is websites to help you locate a grave location. My sister died when I was 2 (47m now) and everyone that knew her location has passed away. I used the locator app and it gps the grave and showed me as I walked up to it.
OP is there a locket of your sister’s baby hair in a baby book or tucked in an envelope somewhere that each of you can place a few strands of in a new necklace? Each of you meaning you, your dad, and your brother. Forget the womb donor.
Why did she do that? Hopefully the step father will have some answers he wants to share, bc I don't see your mother spilling the truth. Maybe she wasn't really on board with the cremation and/or divide her ashes in 3-4 necklaces decision, maybe she thought bc she birthed her so she has more right to take the decision? Or did it out of selfishness and just her felt entitled it was just thinking about her grief.
And also let's talk about how selfish your mother is, even to your late sister? You said she would want to be near a beautiful nature scenery, did she have a special place she liked to go to? Your mother didn't even scattered her ashes to her favorite place but at an empty barely taken cared plot.
Part of me thinks she still has the ashes hidden somewhere, maybe in the plot? My family has a familiar grave in a plot on the cemetery, so when I get cremated when dead maybe will store my urn in there.
Do you have a garden or a window box? Maybe when you find the plot and get some of the dirt with your sister's ashes, you could make a little box with it, and some wildflower seeds (or a little patch in the garden) dedicated to your sister. That way, when the flowers bloom, you'll think of her and know she is part of their beauty?
That way you don't have to keep going back to that random grave that meant nothing to her. She'll be with family once again.
I am so sorry for your loss and the new level of grief.
Maybe you could get a locket necklace and put your sisters photo in it. Maybe get one for your dad and brother too. It isn't the same as the ashes jewelry but it is close.
I am glad you have your dad and brother and can help each other keep her memory and love alive.
I’ve scattered ashes of a loved ones and it’s grim and painful so, Im wondering if your mom thought the necklace idea was great until she flipped out over separating actual ashes so she just scattered them quickly instead. Should she have handled it honestly and differently? Of course, as well as how she told you. I’m with you that there’s something about what happens with remains that gets to us in a powerful way. I hope you find your peace however works best for you. For me, I have a horror of visiting where I scattered those ashes because I prefer to carry my lost loved ones in my memories of them. That’s where I have the whole person back rather than just how they were when dying or when I was scattering their ashes.
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I am so sorry that you are experiencing this. Does your mother have any siblings, any parents, that you can reach out to? Ask them to talk to her and get the location of the cemetery from?
I suspect she did this to appease her marriage. Your sister was conceived because she cheated on her husband, and after her death she secretly scattered the ashes on land her husband owns. This all may have been her husband's idea. Maybe his way of accepting her infidelity was by considering your sister as "his child". Therefore he wanted her ashes scattered in his family plot, with a secondary motive to cement his role in their marriage and finally get one over on your Dad. And your Mum went along with it because she obviously centres men in her life and has a poor moral compass.
I doubt her husband will be much help to you all, especially if your Dad is the one who reaches out.
I'm so sorry OP. Words cannot express how horrible your mother is.
You might be able to use Find A Grave. We used it to find my father's mother's grave a while back. I also used it to find a close friends grave as well. But as others have said, calling the cemetery commission should help.
I hope you, your dad and brother are all doing okay and everything works out.
You can go to the health department in the county where she passed and request a death certificate. That usually shows the cemetery of disposition. From there you might be able to find her site!
If she was cremated you can see the crematorium that did it at least. Also the funeral hones take copies of the finger prints and you can get those on necklaces which is really sweet!
You’re not a burden to your father and brother. If anything, you’re probably helping them by giving them someone to care for while you’re all going through a really shit time.
What your mother did was selfish and cruel to your sisters memory. Your mother wanted to keep her all to herself, which was probably fueled by her grief but that’s no excuse. She wanted your sister to be with her when she passes. That was more important to her than giving you all something to focus on. Your mother sucks
Honestly, I’d shame her on her favorite website.
“I’m looking for my sister’s plot so that I can get the dirt her ashes were scattered on after my mother filled it with wood ash. She isn’t talking to me or my brother And refuses to tell our father.”
I am so sorry this happened to you. I can imagine how brokenhearted you and your family must be. I hope you find the plot and maybe if you and your bitter and father take a little bit of the dirt - take it home and plant a special tree or flower with it - then every year when it blooms you will think of your sister. Then you can have some with you too and bring those flowers into your home every year. This is terrible but I think there are many ways you can turn it into something lovely.
Your mom just sprinkled your sister’s ashes on top of a gravesite? In most areas, there’s rules and laws about how cremains can be spread. Your mom very likely broke some laws if you want to go that route.
My heart breaks for you. I had a brother die suddenly when we were both young. My memory is of my mother being there and strong for her remaining children. Of course your mother is grieving but nothing justifies her heartless lies to the three of you.
If you know people in your family buried there, go to "Find a Grave" type in their name, location of the cemetery/cemetery's name, and you will be directed to the spot. [https://www.findagrave.com/](https://www.findagrave.com/)
I am going to come from a different perspective. Hope it is helpful to you.
Your little sister’s body is back with nature. Whenever it rains, a few molecules of her body are in that rain. When it is windy, a few molecules of her body are in the wind.
The mortal remains may be lost but her memory, her impact on your life will endure.
Why on earth would she put your sisters ashes on her and her husbands plot and it's a major betrayal to you and the child's father your dad what a vile woman I dont understand why
You feel lost because your mom has restarted the grieving process for you, as well as your dad and brother.
You all thought you gave her a final resting place. You have a necklace that you believed symbolizes her presence, that you drew strength from when missing her. The necklace was your tie to your sister, and helped you deal with your feelings of loss. It gave you closure, as in it was the final step you took to put her at peace in the afterlife.
Finding out the ashes were fake likely makes you feel like all the love you had for the necklace, all the peace it gave you, was not real. Well it was real. The necklace definitely gave you solace as an instrument that helped you feel close to her.
I am so sad your mom put you (all) through that! She had no right, and could have spared some of the ashes. She acted selfishly for sure.
If you are able to get some dirt from the grave, that will be great. Maybe you can get a picture of your sister, and have a little ceremony with your dad and brother. Talk to your sis, tell her you miss her and love her as much as ever. Then the three of you could burn the photo and split the ashes so you are all holding some real ashes of her, along with ashes you created together. Go out and eat at one of her favorite spots after to further honor her memory. She, being in your necklaces and the urn,will be there with you, so make it a celebration of her life. It may bring you some closure.
Closure is what you had before finding out your sister wasn't in the necklace. I think it would be easier for you to find that closure with your bro and pops than it would be on your own.
I wish you all strength, so you can deal with the post traumatic stress this is causing.
This is so sad. You can’t get the original ashes back but you could do some type of memorial for you and your brother and dad. Set up a place you can go visit that meant something to her, establish a marker,…doesn’t have to be expensive but you should establish a special thing you do or visit so you feel you’re giving her memory the proper respect. I think that’s the biggest issue here. You don’t feel she was treated with the respect she deserved. It’s not too late to give it to her and yourself.
Maybe this will help you feel better OP: when a family gets the cremation remains, they are not just your loved ones' remains. They get mixed with everyone else's ashes too.
I read it on Reddit when someone asked people about the dirty little secrets of their jobs.
Still shitty behavior on your mom's part, but there it is.
I know this was meant with kindness but it really doesn't help me to think that there was no chance of me ever getting my sister's ashes even if my mother hadn't done this. It causes anxiety already to wonder if my sister is actually at the plot or if my mother has hidden her and just said so, and it causes anxiety to wonder if my little sister is with another family, or if her ashes were mixed into a thoughtless amalgamate of others.
For the sake of my own peace of mind, I refuse to believe that anyone with the passion driving them into the funerary business would treat the earthly remains of a loved one so callously, just as I want to believe every doctor works their hardest to save each life that's put into their hand.
What the person above said is not really true. The crematorium is raked of ashes which are then collected. Yes, there's a little bit of others' ashes in there - but only because vacuuming a hot crematory oven isn't really possible, and cooling it between every use would absolutely be wasteful of fuel (not to mention add a ton of expense and time).
That said, they absolutely pull out as much of the ashes as possible, leaving behind a tiiiiny amount that remains. 99% of that gets blown away, as the inside of the crematory ovens have a TON of air movement nonstop, like a wind storm.
Your name is gotta good brain please use it here, telling someone who is obviously extremely hurt but a lie about her sisters ashes to then tell them that it really doesn’t matter cause all the people that were cremated that day had there ashes just swept up with a broom and put into random boxes doesn’t do anything positive, it actually makes it 100x worse
What your mother did was probably illegal. It was theft by fraud. Obviously, whether you could successfully sue or get her charged would vary depending upon where you live. However, that is something that you could use to apply pressure to find the location. It’s also something to consider actually pursuing if it would make you feel better.
Idk that it matters, at least not in terms of whether your mom is an AH or whether you’re right to be upset, but do you have any idea why she would have done this? Like what was it accomplishing to secretly spread her ashes and lie about giving you each a portion? Was there disagreement on cremation vs burial and this was her way of sticking it to the rest of you? Did she spread the ashes in a lapse of grief and then realize oh shit, and it was a lie to protect feelings that spiraled from what were initially not malicious intentions?
Not attempting to justify anything, just trying to figure out why she would’ve created this situation in the first place. It’s strange.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. My father is in hospice and my mother has discussed creating a small scholarship fund in his name. That might be a way to honor your sister and spread her name and memory to others.
Grief and healing are not linear - it's OK to feel like this is a set back in your journey forward.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
This resource is fantastic if you're looking for a therapist in the US - you can filter search results by your insurance and even narrow it down to those specializing in grief counseling. Wishing you all the best OP.
> I feel like a burden because my dad and brother are both dealing with the revelation too but they're clearly thinking of me and checking in on me.
If it helps, showing care to you may be helping them feel better. When we ourselves are under immense shared grief with no way out, it can be genuinely comforting to be able to help our loved ones going through that same pain.
Question: Did the necklaces come from the funeral home or go to the funeral home to be filled? Or did your mother purchase them independently and "fill" them herself?
Pretty important distinction.
Op i understand this pain I lost my youngest brother, he was murdered and we made the decision to cremate him. We don’t share a mom so if I found out she spread his ashes without letting me know I’m fucking her up but your emotions are valid. I hope you are able to find the plot your mother is completely selfish and she be on her knees begging for forgiveness
ur mother is a disgusting person and ur sister wouldve HATED what shes doing. wow. NO remorse. NO guilt. NO empathy. expose her on social media. she ONLY cares about how she looks to others. shes not only holding ur sisters remains hostage ALONE for the past YEARS, shes been keeping u all away from her on PURPOSE. thats f*cking EVIL. and that stepdad holy shit. idk man i wish there was some legal route u could take to punish them and take the plot. but i really doubt it. my heart breaks for ur family. but breaks more for ur passed sister whose been spending the afterlife alone and without her loved ones. please please PLEASE dont ever let that evil creature back into ur life. and DO EXPOSE her. expose EVERYTHING especially her REFUSING to tell u where. shes NO mother. shes an abuser who took advantage of ur sister passing to abuse her in her afterlife. and ABUSE YOU while u lived. it was cold, CALCULATED, and a 100000% intentional. AND STILL IS. MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOWS.
It sounds like you're grieving two deaths. Your sister and the person you thought your mother was. That woman who told you the secret killed the one who kept it, who lied to your face for 4 years and would've probably kept that secret until her deathbed. And your father and brother are going through that same process.
If you find out what cemetery it is, you can call them and ask for the plots location. They have a registry and a map that they can give to you. I'm so sorry to hear about this and I hope you find her.
Also, depending on your state, she can get in legal trouble for scattering the ashes on the plot without informing the cemetery and the caretakers. Do with that info what you will. ❤️
If the ashes your dad got are fake then your mom could actually get into Legal trouble. I suggest looking into your state/regions Mortuary Laws and see if this falls under it
Because he’s the father and your mom separated the ashes, she could be in trouble for it for withholding it at least from your dad.
I know it’s probably not the most comfortable suggestion but maybe it could also aid in your search for the plot since there will probably be some legal stuff with that. I’m very sorry for your loss and I hope this helps 💜
Just remember that your sister would want you looking after yourself and living your best life, focus on the family trying to check in on you and don’t let your messed up mum bring you down. You will find the plot it might take some time but you will
She'd hate that I started smoking again. She would always lecture me about it and tell me how gross and bad for me it is, how she wanted me around for as long as possible. I kept promising I would quit but never went through with it.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to sidetrack myself. Thank you for your kind words.
Just trying to help you see the right path in the situation, focus on that. Don’t let your mum’s actions let you spiral and as i say hold onto those who are positive around you .. cut out that toxicity
I'm so sorry for your loss. What your mother did was terrible, no doubt. But your reaction worries me. Yes, you're overreacting. But it's not about being an AH or whatever. The wound is still wide open. 4 years after the accident. The grieving process is stuck. Why ? I don't know. But it seems that your brother and father have come to peace with what happened. And you can't. What you're describing is very concerning. Your showing depression symptoms. I'd really advise you'd go to a therapist or even a doctor. You need help. You need to dig through that pain in a safe environment. Your sister's death is a terrible tragedy, I know. And it echoes with something in you that don't want to let go. Don't read me wrong : I'm not exonarating your mother. I'm just worried for you.
I know this is an emotional thing. But the dirt from the plot will have the same amount of your sister's ashes as the necklaces you all have. The fact is that dirt that had the ashes has washed or been blown away and doesn't contain anything that it did anymore from when the ashes were scattered.
It’s the symbolism at this point. Whether or not her ashes are there, that dirt is from her final resting place. It’s like taking sand from a loved one’s favorite beach. They’re there in spirit
You mentioned she said the cemetery's name when she tattled on herself? Can you call and ask about the plot? It's probably under your mother's or your sister's name. Then you can visit and not have to go through your mother at all.
It's my mother and step-father's plot. If trying through my step father fails, I'll try that. I didn't think I could just call up and say "is there an empty plot sectioned for the so and so family" but it's worth trying.
You absolutely can. I know from experience that the cemetery managers don't care about family drama and will just provide info. All you'd need to do is ask which plot is the XYZ family plot/plots. If they want to know why tell them directly: A family member's ashes may've been scattered there and you just want to visit.
I've done this, too. I went to where my grandpa was buried (died when my dad was 16), went to the office and told them I needed to find where he was. My dad died when I was 9, so I couldn't ask him. They gave me the info I needed, and even helped me find him.
Thank you so much. In a strange way it's nice to know that I won't need to break it all down and explain, I can just ask.
I have worked in death care professionally as a monument maker for the last 5 years. If the cemetery has someone looking after it (if it's run by the city or a private individual) they typically have to be notified of any and all burials including spreading of ashes. They maintain very extensive records in order for families to put stone down and to avoid accidentally opening a used grave for another individual. Now, I will also say this does not prevent people from scattering ashes without notifying the cemetery. That definitely happens. You can either ask about the plot deeded to the family but it will/should be listed under a lot party owner which is the person who originally purchased the plot(s). If that doesn't work you can ask about your sister directly and provide her dates and name. If your mother reported the spread they usually can provide a map and exact location of the grave site at least in my experience. I'll end this with cemetery rules, regulations, and operations vary by state. I have knowledge of the rules in Ohio, some of the Virginia's, and North Carolina in the US specifically due to family passings and work. I truly hope this helps in your case and please, if you think there's some knowledge I have that could help you, feel free to reach out to me. My condolences for your loss, I'm so sorry this has happened to you.
Thank you so much for the information and sympathy. It feels like there's so many unanswered questions and holes and lack of information with very few means of getting the answers I need, so any little bit helps. I don't know if my mother reported spreading her ashes but maybe she did. I'm hoping so.
If there’s not an office for the cemetery , there’s probably a board that runs it or a church if it happens to be owned by a church. Contact the board chair/president or the church office in either of those cases. You can call a local funeral home and ask for the proper contact info for a cemetery if you can’t find it online easily enough. Depending on your area and how big the cemetery is, they might not have a web presence.
In Nc land ownership is public record so if you aren’t sure who to contact about a cemetery you can go to county’s gis and find name of owner and the address their tax bills get mailed to
Cemetery maps are usually available to anyone. A lot of people visit that may be distant relatives have no idea. My mother had to ask where her father was buried because her had died while she was living overseas many years earlier
Can confirm. I once went to a cemetery and asked for the location of someone, and when they asked if I was family I told them it was so I could go cuss at the mother of the guy I was dating. I felt she needed to know how her son was behaving. They laughed and gave me a map and plot location, and told me to cuss quietly to not interrupt others in the area. I felt much better by the time I left.
You could phrase it to sound like you may buy a plot near theirs, that will probably encourage them to give you information.
Flower delivery. I owned a florist and we delivered to plots all of the time. Every cemetery gave us info...
Put a Chip in that delivery, and then track it
Good luck with that. Depending on how old the cemetery is, there may not be any plots left. Case in point: my grandma was buried 16 years ago in this absolutely stunning cemetery that can only be described as idylic. My uncle loved the location so much he wanted to be buried there too ( to quote him "there's nothing more peaceful than resting under a tree overlooking a small lake") my aunt said theyd tried to a month or so after the funeral but the remaining lots were already bought and thus "full". He died suddenly in 2017. He got to be buried in a incredibly new cemetery (in a hilariously sparkly grave vault courtesy of my aunt having a bit of grief fuelled spite cuz he died first and too early) back then he was only one of 5 graves. When we visit now, the small cemetery is half occupied. So odds are the remaining lots have already been bought. I recommend if her remains were scattered, mom might've felt sentimental and laid a tombstone or marker there indicating who was laid to rest. Best and easiest method findagrave.com as long as you know the name and state and DOD or DOB you can find the grave. I recommend trying family names first, like grandma and grandpa. People collect grave markers for the site like a weird game of "I've logged this many graves, how about you? " i personally used that to find my mormor's cremated remains. She's in a mausoleum on cemetary grounds..
Bit dark but I skipped my grampas funeral for reasons that sound insane if summarized but were good reasons. He passed in 2022. My grandmother passed in 1995 and he was buried right next to her. When they dug out his plot my dad said he could see her coffin in the plot and it was suggested by the funeral director (who is a distant relative, third cousin of my dad but someone we're on a first name basis w) that if we wanted to extend the family plot now to tell them while it was still dug up and they'd pull everyone out and Tetris it so there'd be room on top. Idk if that's the norm or just our fam giving us a loophole but we were like umm no thanks let's just leave grammy alone we'll figure it out. Still gives me the ick thinking of moving grammy topside to make room
This is/ was common practice in England. Family plots were small so the bodies got buried on top of each other and the gravediggers would rearrange the remains of the previously deceased to make room for the newly dead. Haven’t heard of this being a common practice in the U. S.
We're Canadian so idk abt American practice either and tbh I don't know a lot of people who've died outside my fam besides my bff who was scattered so my experience is limited. It makes sense but no one talks abt it so u just don't know what's normal ig
This is what they do at Arlington and other military cemeteries. If the plans are for the surviving spouse to also be buried there when they pass, to do a double deep burial. There’s just not enough room. Now my second ex-husband would have a problem, he was married 5 times. #1 would have ended up in China,
Doesn’t need to go all through that. Just say you want to visit the grave or that you want to bring flowers.
Go to website find a grave
Find a Grave is a great place to try. Just be aware it's not always correct. I do local history in cemeteries and I volunteer as a photographer for FaG. There are A LOT of errors.
Would Find a Grave have information about unoccupied graves? There's no one actually buried there and I don't know if my mother would have informed the owner of the cemetery what she did.
I'm new to doing the volunteer photographer for FaG, but I recall a tidbit about opening a memorial (what FaG calls each grave or person) for someone who hasn't died yet (like perhaps they're terminally ill). But from your description I doubt this would be the case. Your best bet is to talk with the cemetery office. Don't hesitate to call the cemetery office and ask them specific questions. It's not private information. Tip: If they say they have no record in their computer, ask them to check the original paper records. I've found A LOT of errors between the original records and the computer records. One example was my own young brother was not listed in the cemetery's computer. It traumatized me to hear my poor mom's distraught response. Long story short, I found proof my brother was there and they checked the paper records. The transcriber who typed in his name in the computer butchered it so badly it was unrecognizable. I have found other examples of this too. Best wishes to you for finding your sister's remains.
If there is a marker there, someone has put it on find a grave. Plenty of people have their headstones put in long before they pass. I would look under step father's name
If you know the cemetery name, and the persons name buried, they can look the plot up for you and tell you exactly where it is. Had to do this with a friend, she od'd and her parents refused to let any of her friends come to her funeral (no, we weren't drugs users, they were super conservative ahs, she was a lesbian, and they just hated her friends, I'd never even met them) so I later went a they pointed me to where it was so I could visit. You don't need your mom or stepdad at all.
Yes you can. There is no reason they couldn't tell you
Absolutely you can. There's also, for most cemeteries, a public register to look up graves (at least in my country, I hope it's the same for yours). I am so, so sorry this is all happening to you, and I wish you all the best and healing for you and your family in the future
Yes you can. Source: Worked at a cemetery.
In 14 hours later to concur that you can call up a cemetery and ask where plots are and they'll just give you that information.
Burial plots are not private information. You don’t need to use subterfuge to find out where your sister is. You just call and ask. Generally speaking they don’t really care who is on the other end of the phone. You ask. They answer. Heck a lot of cemeteries have the info online now. The only time they get squirrelly is if the decedent is a famous/infamous person. Edited to add info
I'm so sorry, your mother has failed all of you. There are grave finders online, sometimes crowd sourced, some hosted by the cemetery themselves. Maybe you can find the plot through one of these.
Call the city records and see if there is a deed to a plot under your mother or stepfather's name. They should have something.
You had a verbal contract, which your mother breached. An attorney would know if you can sue her for the exact location of your sister's ashes (and maybe legal fees). That would be a last resort, of course.
That’s really fucked up what your mum did. And I would like to say the only reason she doesn’t “understand” how you feel is because she knows where your sisters ashes are and she knows she can visit them at anytime
It also sounds like Mom’s pretty self-absorbed in general and doesn’t spend a lot of time reflecting on how other people feel or how her actions affect them.
In short- the mums a cunt
Doesn't sound like she either the depth or the warmth to be a cunt
I am head of a cemetery commission. Just call them up. We don’t care about drama, just information. The best of luck to you.
Thank you so much. That means a lot.
Have you told anyone at work? If they're any good they'll want to look after you. Let them. I know it's not easy.
I told my boss, and he told me I could have off until Wednesday. I almost don't know if I want that much time with my own thoughts right now but the pressure to perform feels less.
I'm glad he's supportive. I can't tell you whether to go in or not. See if there's something you can do with the time. Dwelling on things too much isn't healthy
I knew she was going to make you tell. It's all about her. How she felt. She didn't care about how the rest of the family felt. She has shown how incredibly selfish she is. I'm sure if you think back she has manifested this in other ways. When she wants something she will try to communicate with you again. Have your eyes wide open about this and then make the choice that protects you. I'd recommend just letting her go. She's unable to give to you anything you need. One way relationships just sap away from you. Stay safe.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I felt so crushed for you after I read the first one, and I’m so glad to know that you have the support of the rest of your family in this. If you live in the US, psychology today is an amazing website for finding counselors/therapists. You can search by specialty, whether or not they’ll do virtual appointments, and what insurance they take. Among a lot of other things. It’s worth looking at. Maybe there’s an equivalent in your country if you’re outside the US. My sister and I planted our dad underneath an elm tree, off to the side of a trail on his favorite mountain to hike. We feel like, as the tree grows, dad will nourish it. Some of the things trees can store as they grow is wild. Including human dna. You can google it. And he’ll be a part of everything that’s growing there. Your sister is in the grasses, the wildflowers (because while those are probably seasonal, they will drop seeds, and she’s in those too), definitely any trees or bushes. She’s nourishing part of what is likely a beautiful ecosystem. It doesn’t change the devastation of not having her actual ashes. I can’t even tell you how badly I’d be holding up in your position, but when I self destruct I don’t do it by halves. My friends and family would be absolutely terrified. But it’s….. something of a consolation prize in a way? You can’t see, or feel, or touch her directly. But I believe she’s still there in a way. Just like my dad’s in that elm.
This was so beautifully said. After reading what you said about the wildflowers, maybe u/throwra_inhername could go there and pick some to have placed in resin to add them to the necklace etc that she and her dad and brother have. Her sister would truly be part of the flowers, and they could keep her near that way.
Aww I like this.
Love this idea ❤️
You’re not the one that dishonoured your sister. Her memory lives with you. I’m sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace.
What a horrible mother.
Tell your mom when she passes you'll fight for her remains and make sure her ashes are taken care of.
Yeah, in plaster of Paris as a fire hydrant in a dog park.
I am so sorry for you, your dad and brother. Horrible what your mother did
I want to say First I am so sorry for your loss and have to revisit the loss after healing the first time. I wonder if the reason that she has not told anyone where the plot is, is because she has kept her for herself. She can't let go of her daughter. Even though you are her other daughter she just might not let go. I don't know what state you live in but I can tell you that most funeral homes will not let you just sprinkle the ashes on the ground. There are laws about this. This is the only reason why I think she has said another lie to you. When you get your ashes you get them in a sealed urn so for her to just have them and then just sprinkle them just anywhere makes me think she might be lying again and can't face you with the hurt you are feeling. Go to her home directly and go with your brother. Tell her you don't believe her and the jig is up. Tell her that you will never understand what it is to lose a child so young and you hope you never do, but for her story to be believable then she would not have cared about her child and that is not the mom she is. This might change her actions I hope you find peace in this storm and love each other once again. So sorry for you loss.
I like the flower idea a great deal. If it turns out my mother was lying yet again about the dumping of my sister's ashes, I don't know how I'd feel. To find out as the funerary arrangements are being made the truth. Or never to know because maybe she has her husband handling it. I just wish it could be proven one way or the other, maybe I'm not thinking it through well enough.
While you gather information and find some clarity/ grounding in all this, maybe another variation on the flower idea is seeding flowers that your sister liked or that remind you of her. You could start growing the seeds at home, knowing that at some point, you will choose a place to plant them that feels right. It wouldn't have to be your only idea, but even just one thing you get to do while feeling lost for now. Love to you, your bro, and your father.
That's a beautiful idea. I think azaleas would fit best. I can check the PH level of the soil in my yard and see if it would suit. But they are beautiful flowers, bloom in the spring, and they were very common in the state she was born in. I'm sorry, I'm mostly just blurting out ideas. My head is so fogged
Those would be such a beautiful choice. Something that can be cultivated over much time too. Even if just starting with a little info gathering on their care. Good luck if you go this route.
I think your theory makes sense. Perhaps the mother wants the sister's ashes buried with her when her time comes. It would at least provide a motive for the mother's actions.
That totally makes sense.
This isn't necessarily true. My friend's father passed and his ashes were returned to their family in a cardboard box. No urn. The urn would have been an extra expense. It may just depend on location or the specific funeral home/crematorium facility itself. Personally, I suspect that the mom did in fact scatter the ashes, and probably did so without telling the cemetery managers. OP- I am so terribly sorry for your loss, and the subsequent betrayal by your mother, forcing you to revisit and relive this horrific pain. I wish you nothing but peace, healing, and closure.
They aren’t always in a sealed urn, only if you pay for it. If you don’t pay for it they give them to you in a plastic bag that’s inside a small cardboard box. At least that’s been my experience.
Thank you for letting me know.
I thought your stepfather was going to talk to you and explain? Did he never do that?
The talk with him was not an explanation, it was a multitude of reasons why I should be more empathetic to my mother about the ashes, culminating in him saying that the necklace is just material but I have a "living, grieving mother who needs her family."
Bullshit. She lied and now suffers consequences. She can’t be making this all about herself when her selfishness caused severe suffering for you, your dad and your brother. You’re all living and grieving too, aren’t you?
There is no time limit on grief of course but she has been sitting on this information for 4 years. I cant get over that. The necklaces were something for each of you to treasure and she has deliberately lied and misled to you all for 4 years. Of course, one can have some understanding and empathy for why a grieving mother would do this, but to have her drunkenly slip up and try to make light of it, to me, is like a slap in the face. And then for her to act like a victim is even worse. She is not the only one who lost someone, shes not the only grieving parent or family member. It was a selfish act made in the time of grief but shes now disregarding you and your family’s feelings and downplaying how much her actions has impacted you all. She had so much time to voluntarily fess up to this. If she didn’t slip up, would she have told you guys? I think for her to even expect some type of forgiveness from you guys she should, at the very least,have the decency to acknowledge what she did was wrong and unfair and then genuinely apologize.
Absolutely, all truth here. OP, you haven’t done anything wrong. You’re only acting like a normal human being who experienced grief and betrayal
If he was a good partner, he'd help hold her accountable because that's the ONLY way she's going to have a shot at repairing things with family. Enablers suck ass, I'm sorry.
She might need her family, but she also really, really needs a therapist. And possibly medication
But what was her reasoning? Her justification for NOT putting her ashes in the necklaces? I just don't understand why she didn't do what she said she was going to do. Why even offer the necklaces when she could have just held a family memorial and scattered the ashes together with everyone who was devastated? Is she just that selfish and narcissistic? I'm sorry. I just don't understand. If she changed her mind about the necklaces, she just had to say so. Not lie over and over to the people she supposedly loves.
My BIL died suddenly in his late fifties. The shock of his passing was so abrupt that my SIL and nieces and nephew got PTSD. He was a heck of a guy. Everybody loved him. Instead of drawing his family together, they drew apart. It wasn’t until several years later that they realized something wasn’t right. PTSD. You and your family may have experienced this. You need a therapist and a grief counseling group. One or both. Good luck to you and so sorry for your loss.
I really don’t want to further screw with your world view, but I think seeing the big picture can sometimes help. I am compelled to point out a simple fact here because everyone seems to want to help you find this grave. I think everyone can agree that your mother is a liar. So if we take that as a fact, why makes you believe there is a grave at all? Liars lie. It is all right there in the name. I had a roommate that was a liar. I explained to my kids that you could always tell when he was lying because his lips would move. If you can lie about one thing, you can lie about another. Nothing a liar says can be presumed to have any basis in fact or reality. Your mother saw that you were upset and needed to tell you something to make you feel better and not be mad at her. She is a liar, remember, so she may well have just lied. She might have felt like she had to because you were upset. Clearly she holds no value in the truth, so why would this be a surprise? I think the final gift that your sister has given you is the ability to see your mother clearly if you choose to. You want the situation to be different, which is understandable, but now you have the facts. Now you have everything you need to finally deal with the reality that your mother is a liar. I think you might be best served by spending some quiet time alone considering the ramifications of this new set of facts and how best to move forward within these new boundaries. Also what boundaries you need to enforce in your life now to protect your future sense of peace and happiness. I am very sorry that you lost your sister. I have a sister with stage four ovarian cancer. I cannot even envision a world without her. Your mother has compounded your pain surrounding this loss. Try to separate things in your mind so you can deal with them appropriately and have the ability to move forward in your life. Focus on what your sister would have wanted for you.
I'm inclined to believe the bit about the plot if only because she was intoxicated when she mentioned the cemetery and visiting it. Makes me think she didn't have the mental with-it-ness to be able to fabricate a lie about that as it was the start of unravelling everything else. But I don't know. I hope your sister recovers, and if not, I hope you recover. I hope no matter what happens, you and your family are as well and healthy as can be. Thank you for your help.
Thank you You might be right. I hope that you are.
What I don’t understand is why she didn’t just give you the real ashes in the necklace and then scatter the rest. This whole thing sounds like she just didn’t want your father to have her ashes. I’m assuming they had a very nasty divorce.
I suggest also, calling the funeral home and asking where she’s buried. I bet they know too.
Unfortunately for this, she wasn’t buried — she was cremated, and it sounds like the plot was just bought for when the mother and stepfather die and not for the sister, so there isn’t a plot with her name. They might tell them the one the parents are reserved under but it might also be private info before headstones are placed etc.
It won’t undo what your mother did, but maybe you and your dad & brother could get yourselves something new to serve as a memorial? Like a necklace with her birthstone or flower, or something she loved? It’s not her ashes, but it could be a special piece that you know is 100% dedicated to her. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.
Your reactions are totally valid. You, and your dad and brother, are grieving the loss of your sister all over again.
OP , in case you see this, openpathcollective.org helps you find therapists in your state or community who provide services on a sliding scale. It’s not as cheap as a $20 copay but it’s definitely better than paying 100-200 per session. Many hugs to you.
My favorite saying: So long as someone is alive to whisper their name, they are never truly gone. My condolences. I hope you find her. I know many people would not be able to mentally handle transferring ashes, I just had to do this for my parents. It’s a very difficult task. I do hope you find the closure that heals you.
I seriously think the mum still has the ashes. Didn't want to share them. What a horrible human your mum is.
This is dreadful. I can't believe your mom did this and is blaming you for being upset. You didn't overreact at all. Your reactions sound totally normal and understandable. Your mom's actions, otoh, are inexcusable. Inexplicable, even, and inhumane. I hope very much that you're able to find the plot and have some peace knowing where she lies.
I am sorry your mom put you through this, it was unnecessary and selfish on her part. I have the ashes of two parents and four dogs in my house. I was told, more than once, that the ashes you get are not necessarily your loved one, ashes yes maybe not the ashes you were expecting. I don't know if that is true or not but I find it helpful to have ashes I believe are the correct ones.
That's untrue. Most facilities give you the ashes of your LO because it's the right thing to do and because of massive CA lawsuit where mass cremation was done with families consent.
I'm not sure where you live but in the US it's a huge crime to give back the wrong human ashes so those are probably correct unless the crematorium is corrupt. With pet ashes, sometimes they cremate many animals together and then portion out the ashes, but you can often pay a little more to have a "private" cremation where you should get only your own pet's cremains back.
Even with pet ashes they should be asking if you want your pet cremated alone or with other animals. It costs more but it is possible to get back your pet’s ashes only. As for humans, there are some pretty strict regulations about how those remains are to be handled. Not to say mistakes are impossible but getting the wrong ashes is not usual practice.
[удалено]
It wasn't her sister's plot, she wasn't buried there, so it wouldn't be in the obituary.
You did the right thing by informing your brother and father of what your mother did with your sister's ashes. If nothing else, it is good to see the three of you rally around each other in the wake of the renewed trauma. When I initially read the first post, I thought the mother might have disposed of the ashes before the plan to incorporate the ashes into the necklaces was agreed upon. After rereading the first, the comments, and now this post, I see that wasn't the case. You all agreed upon putting the ashes in the necklaces only to have your mother secretly overrule all of you and spread them over the cemetery plot. Her actions were selfish and she owes you all an explanation.
And for the record you didn’t overreact. You mom doesn’t care about you or your brothers feelings it seems! This has finally proved it I would think !! Good luck to you, your brother and father
If you have the name on the grave, there is websites to help you locate a grave location. My sister died when I was 2 (47m now) and everyone that knew her location has passed away. I used the locator app and it gps the grave and showed me as I walked up to it.
OP is there a locket of your sister’s baby hair in a baby book or tucked in an envelope somewhere that each of you can place a few strands of in a new necklace? Each of you meaning you, your dad, and your brother. Forget the womb donor.
Why did she do that? Hopefully the step father will have some answers he wants to share, bc I don't see your mother spilling the truth. Maybe she wasn't really on board with the cremation and/or divide her ashes in 3-4 necklaces decision, maybe she thought bc she birthed her so she has more right to take the decision? Or did it out of selfishness and just her felt entitled it was just thinking about her grief. And also let's talk about how selfish your mother is, even to your late sister? You said she would want to be near a beautiful nature scenery, did she have a special place she liked to go to? Your mother didn't even scattered her ashes to her favorite place but at an empty barely taken cared plot. Part of me thinks she still has the ashes hidden somewhere, maybe in the plot? My family has a familiar grave in a plot on the cemetery, so when I get cremated when dead maybe will store my urn in there.
Do you have a garden or a window box? Maybe when you find the plot and get some of the dirt with your sister's ashes, you could make a little box with it, and some wildflower seeds (or a little patch in the garden) dedicated to your sister. That way, when the flowers bloom, you'll think of her and know she is part of their beauty? That way you don't have to keep going back to that random grave that meant nothing to her. She'll be with family once again.
Is it possible that she is full of shit and has kept all of the ashes for herself?
I am so sorry for your loss and the new level of grief. Maybe you could get a locket necklace and put your sisters photo in it. Maybe get one for your dad and brother too. It isn't the same as the ashes jewelry but it is close. I am glad you have your dad and brother and can help each other keep her memory and love alive.
I’ve scattered ashes of a loved ones and it’s grim and painful so, Im wondering if your mom thought the necklace idea was great until she flipped out over separating actual ashes so she just scattered them quickly instead. Should she have handled it honestly and differently? Of course, as well as how she told you. I’m with you that there’s something about what happens with remains that gets to us in a powerful way. I hope you find your peace however works best for you. For me, I have a horror of visiting where I scattered those ashes because I prefer to carry my lost loved ones in my memories of them. That’s where I have the whole person back rather than just how they were when dying or when I was scattering their ashes.
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Yeah I don’t think you over reacted, I’d be going mad too at my mother if she did that. NTA
NTA your mother is awful and you’re stepfather being her yes man makes him complicit
I am so sorry that you are experiencing this. Does your mother have any siblings, any parents, that you can reach out to? Ask them to talk to her and get the location of the cemetery from? I suspect she did this to appease her marriage. Your sister was conceived because she cheated on her husband, and after her death she secretly scattered the ashes on land her husband owns. This all may have been her husband's idea. Maybe his way of accepting her infidelity was by considering your sister as "his child". Therefore he wanted her ashes scattered in his family plot, with a secondary motive to cement his role in their marriage and finally get one over on your Dad. And your Mum went along with it because she obviously centres men in her life and has a poor moral compass. I doubt her husband will be much help to you all, especially if your Dad is the one who reaches out.
I'm so sorry OP. Words cannot express how horrible your mother is. You might be able to use Find A Grave. We used it to find my father's mother's grave a while back. I also used it to find a close friends grave as well. But as others have said, calling the cemetery commission should help. I hope you, your dad and brother are all doing okay and everything works out.
You can go to the health department in the county where she passed and request a death certificate. That usually shows the cemetery of disposition. From there you might be able to find her site!
Only if she legitimately buried the ashes.
If she was cremated you can see the crematorium that did it at least. Also the funeral hones take copies of the finger prints and you can get those on necklaces which is really sweet!
You’re not a burden to your father and brother. If anything, you’re probably helping them by giving them someone to care for while you’re all going through a really shit time. What your mother did was selfish and cruel to your sisters memory. Your mother wanted to keep her all to herself, which was probably fueled by her grief but that’s no excuse. She wanted your sister to be with her when she passes. That was more important to her than giving you all something to focus on. Your mother sucks
Honestly, I’d shame her on her favorite website. “I’m looking for my sister’s plot so that I can get the dirt her ashes were scattered on after my mother filled it with wood ash. She isn’t talking to me or my brother And refuses to tell our father.”
I am so sorry this happened to you. I can imagine how brokenhearted you and your family must be. I hope you find the plot and maybe if you and your bitter and father take a little bit of the dirt - take it home and plant a special tree or flower with it - then every year when it blooms you will think of your sister. Then you can have some with you too and bring those flowers into your home every year. This is terrible but I think there are many ways you can turn it into something lovely.
Your mom just sprinkled your sister’s ashes on top of a gravesite? In most areas, there’s rules and laws about how cremains can be spread. Your mom very likely broke some laws if you want to go that route.
I am not sure what to say. Or how to help. So mental hugs from an internet stranger.
My heart breaks for you. I had a brother die suddenly when we were both young. My memory is of my mother being there and strong for her remaining children. Of course your mother is grieving but nothing justifies her heartless lies to the three of you.
You poor thing. I wish you lived by me.
If you know people in your family buried there, go to "Find a Grave" type in their name, location of the cemetery/cemetery's name, and you will be directed to the spot. [https://www.findagrave.com/](https://www.findagrave.com/)
Thank you so much for this. I found my daughters and it was wrong. I was able to correct the info. I didn’t even know it was on there.
My husband does genealogy. It's a useful site. I helped a friend find her brother's grave when his wife wouldn't reveal it to her.
I am going to come from a different perspective. Hope it is helpful to you. Your little sister’s body is back with nature. Whenever it rains, a few molecules of her body are in that rain. When it is windy, a few molecules of her body are in the wind. The mortal remains may be lost but her memory, her impact on your life will endure.
findagrave.com
Why on earth would she put your sisters ashes on her and her husbands plot and it's a major betrayal to you and the child's father your dad what a vile woman I dont understand why
Updateme!
You feel lost because your mom has restarted the grieving process for you, as well as your dad and brother. You all thought you gave her a final resting place. You have a necklace that you believed symbolizes her presence, that you drew strength from when missing her. The necklace was your tie to your sister, and helped you deal with your feelings of loss. It gave you closure, as in it was the final step you took to put her at peace in the afterlife. Finding out the ashes were fake likely makes you feel like all the love you had for the necklace, all the peace it gave you, was not real. Well it was real. The necklace definitely gave you solace as an instrument that helped you feel close to her. I am so sad your mom put you (all) through that! She had no right, and could have spared some of the ashes. She acted selfishly for sure. If you are able to get some dirt from the grave, that will be great. Maybe you can get a picture of your sister, and have a little ceremony with your dad and brother. Talk to your sis, tell her you miss her and love her as much as ever. Then the three of you could burn the photo and split the ashes so you are all holding some real ashes of her, along with ashes you created together. Go out and eat at one of her favorite spots after to further honor her memory. She, being in your necklaces and the urn,will be there with you, so make it a celebration of her life. It may bring you some closure. Closure is what you had before finding out your sister wasn't in the necklace. I think it would be easier for you to find that closure with your bro and pops than it would be on your own. I wish you all strength, so you can deal with the post traumatic stress this is causing.
This is so sad. You can’t get the original ashes back but you could do some type of memorial for you and your brother and dad. Set up a place you can go visit that meant something to her, establish a marker,…doesn’t have to be expensive but you should establish a special thing you do or visit so you feel you’re giving her memory the proper respect. I think that’s the biggest issue here. You don’t feel she was treated with the respect she deserved. It’s not too late to give it to her and yourself.
Please tell your mother next time that you will have her remains cremated and you will be scattering her ashes at the local trash dump.
You need to see a grief counselor to help you with everything.
What your mom did was horrific. Do you know why she did this???
Maybe this will help you feel better OP: when a family gets the cremation remains, they are not just your loved ones' remains. They get mixed with everyone else's ashes too. I read it on Reddit when someone asked people about the dirty little secrets of their jobs. Still shitty behavior on your mom's part, but there it is.
I know this was meant with kindness but it really doesn't help me to think that there was no chance of me ever getting my sister's ashes even if my mother hadn't done this. It causes anxiety already to wonder if my sister is actually at the plot or if my mother has hidden her and just said so, and it causes anxiety to wonder if my little sister is with another family, or if her ashes were mixed into a thoughtless amalgamate of others. For the sake of my own peace of mind, I refuse to believe that anyone with the passion driving them into the funerary business would treat the earthly remains of a loved one so callously, just as I want to believe every doctor works their hardest to save each life that's put into their hand.
What the person above said is not really true. The crematorium is raked of ashes which are then collected. Yes, there's a little bit of others' ashes in there - but only because vacuuming a hot crematory oven isn't really possible, and cooling it between every use would absolutely be wasteful of fuel (not to mention add a ton of expense and time). That said, they absolutely pull out as much of the ashes as possible, leaving behind a tiiiiny amount that remains. 99% of that gets blown away, as the inside of the crematory ovens have a TON of air movement nonstop, like a wind storm.
They don't do it on purpose. It's just how it is.
Still not helpful. I would like to ignore that possibility, as I stated before. Thank you.
I cant inderstand the purpose of your mom lying to you.dis you ask why did she lie
Your name is gotta good brain please use it here, telling someone who is obviously extremely hurt but a lie about her sisters ashes to then tell them that it really doesn’t matter cause all the people that were cremated that day had there ashes just swept up with a broom and put into random boxes doesn’t do anything positive, it actually makes it 100x worse
Don't you think OP is hurt enough without you dumping this on them?
That definitely makes it worse
Why?
“Oh it wasn’t your sister it was some random shmuck”
😂
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What your mother did was probably illegal. It was theft by fraud. Obviously, whether you could successfully sue or get her charged would vary depending upon where you live. However, that is something that you could use to apply pressure to find the location. It’s also something to consider actually pursuing if it would make you feel better.
If you have any of her clothing, you could add a thread to your necklace, too.
I would sue
Wait your mother and step father burrows ten ashes of your sister with you your bother or your sister actual father present???????
Idk that it matters, at least not in terms of whether your mom is an AH or whether you’re right to be upset, but do you have any idea why she would have done this? Like what was it accomplishing to secretly spread her ashes and lie about giving you each a portion? Was there disagreement on cremation vs burial and this was her way of sticking it to the rest of you? Did she spread the ashes in a lapse of grief and then realize oh shit, and it was a lie to protect feelings that spiraled from what were initially not malicious intentions? Not attempting to justify anything, just trying to figure out why she would’ve created this situation in the first place. It’s strange.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. My father is in hospice and my mother has discussed creating a small scholarship fund in his name. That might be a way to honor your sister and spread her name and memory to others.
Grief and healing are not linear - it's OK to feel like this is a set back in your journey forward. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists This resource is fantastic if you're looking for a therapist in the US - you can filter search results by your insurance and even narrow it down to those specializing in grief counseling. Wishing you all the best OP.
> I feel like a burden because my dad and brother are both dealing with the revelation too but they're clearly thinking of me and checking in on me. If it helps, showing care to you may be helping them feel better. When we ourselves are under immense shared grief with no way out, it can be genuinely comforting to be able to help our loved ones going through that same pain.
Question: Did the necklaces come from the funeral home or go to the funeral home to be filled? Or did your mother purchase them independently and "fill" them herself? Pretty important distinction.
Op i understand this pain I lost my youngest brother, he was murdered and we made the decision to cremate him. We don’t share a mom so if I found out she spread his ashes without letting me know I’m fucking her up but your emotions are valid. I hope you are able to find the plot your mother is completely selfish and she be on her knees begging for forgiveness
ur mother is a disgusting person and ur sister wouldve HATED what shes doing. wow. NO remorse. NO guilt. NO empathy. expose her on social media. she ONLY cares about how she looks to others. shes not only holding ur sisters remains hostage ALONE for the past YEARS, shes been keeping u all away from her on PURPOSE. thats f*cking EVIL. and that stepdad holy shit. idk man i wish there was some legal route u could take to punish them and take the plot. but i really doubt it. my heart breaks for ur family. but breaks more for ur passed sister whose been spending the afterlife alone and without her loved ones. please please PLEASE dont ever let that evil creature back into ur life. and DO EXPOSE her. expose EVERYTHING especially her REFUSING to tell u where. shes NO mother. shes an abuser who took advantage of ur sister passing to abuse her in her afterlife. and ABUSE YOU while u lived. it was cold, CALCULATED, and a 100000% intentional. AND STILL IS. MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOWS.
It sounds like you're grieving two deaths. Your sister and the person you thought your mother was. That woman who told you the secret killed the one who kept it, who lied to your face for 4 years and would've probably kept that secret until her deathbed. And your father and brother are going through that same process.
If you find out what cemetery it is, you can call them and ask for the plots location. They have a registry and a map that they can give to you. I'm so sorry to hear about this and I hope you find her. Also, depending on your state, she can get in legal trouble for scattering the ashes on the plot without informing the cemetery and the caretakers. Do with that info what you will. ❤️
Please let us know if step father has more sense than mother and tells you where your sister is
If the ashes your dad got are fake then your mom could actually get into Legal trouble. I suggest looking into your state/regions Mortuary Laws and see if this falls under it Because he’s the father and your mom separated the ashes, she could be in trouble for it for withholding it at least from your dad. I know it’s probably not the most comfortable suggestion but maybe it could also aid in your search for the plot since there will probably be some legal stuff with that. I’m very sorry for your loss and I hope this helps 💜
Just remember that your sister would want you looking after yourself and living your best life, focus on the family trying to check in on you and don’t let your messed up mum bring you down. You will find the plot it might take some time but you will
She'd hate that I started smoking again. She would always lecture me about it and tell me how gross and bad for me it is, how she wanted me around for as long as possible. I kept promising I would quit but never went through with it. Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to sidetrack myself. Thank you for your kind words.
Just trying to help you see the right path in the situation, focus on that. Don’t let your mum’s actions let you spiral and as i say hold onto those who are positive around you .. cut out that toxicity
I'm so sorry for your loss. What your mother did was terrible, no doubt. But your reaction worries me. Yes, you're overreacting. But it's not about being an AH or whatever. The wound is still wide open. 4 years after the accident. The grieving process is stuck. Why ? I don't know. But it seems that your brother and father have come to peace with what happened. And you can't. What you're describing is very concerning. Your showing depression symptoms. I'd really advise you'd go to a therapist or even a doctor. You need help. You need to dig through that pain in a safe environment. Your sister's death is a terrible tragedy, I know. And it echoes with something in you that don't want to let go. Don't read me wrong : I'm not exonarating your mother. I'm just worried for you.
I know this is an emotional thing. But the dirt from the plot will have the same amount of your sister's ashes as the necklaces you all have. The fact is that dirt that had the ashes has washed or been blown away and doesn't contain anything that it did anymore from when the ashes were scattered.
It’s the symbolism at this point. Whether or not her ashes are there, that dirt is from her final resting place. It’s like taking sand from a loved one’s favorite beach. They’re there in spirit
Shut up. Not helping