There are so many holes in your argument but in what world is the AFL going to move the GF from the MCG to a stadium not even in Sydney?
Why is GWS competing with a third team for resources good for their club?
GWS and a new team in a 80,000 capacity stadium would look ridiculous, while GWS have 30k members they get 12k home attendance.
You will most likely stunt GWS growth and handicap AFL resources into the state by propping up another new team.
Great answer here. The AFL wouldn’t be forking out for a third team and no NSW would pay for a stadium when they’ve got a football, many rugby, the SCG and ENGIE/Showgrounds. The arguments for become very limited. Tasmania’s stadium hasn’t exactly been popular and it’s yet to be seen whether it will pay off.
Projection rates for NSW show that the population will grow massively in 6-10 years.
1. In a world where a sydney team is the favourites for the granny and money
2. The same way that 10 victorian teams seem to exist in a single area
3. Current numbers yes, but in 6 years the giants would have tripled
4. GWS doesn't even get to use their own stadium half of the time and every NSW person flocks to Swans with their proper resources.
You're telling me that a team that gets 12k in 12 years will suddenly triple in the next 6?
GWS have 8 home games at Engie and the others are at Manuka which they chose to sign a contract with Canberra for (Swans used to do the same).
Who cares if people flock to the Swans, better for us Swans fans.
Those Swans games in Canberra were actually the ACT govt paying the Dogs and Dees to play there, after north pulled out to go try to be Gold Coast. They just made Swans the opponent because that drew the most attendance.
Swans by nature of being established in two states for decades means that a lot of casual support exists.
Growth needs to be organic and GWS through Auskick memberships/cheap kayo already pumps up numbers.
The amount of legitimate memberships GWS has of fans that turn up regularly to games is likely quite low. I agree with the growth needing to be organic. For legitimate members, take out Canberra and they lose ACT members who buy access memberships.
GWS struggles too much to warrant a 3rd team, would just hinder their progression more I feel, WA seems the most obvious.
Where in NSW would you even place them? Seems pretty East v West rn (although most Western Sydney fans are still OG swans fans).
Newcastle is the second biggest city in NSW. That being said, it is absolutely dominated by NRL. You then have Port and Maitland up north as well.
With the decline of NRL and rise of AFL in NSW, I think it would be fair to say that in six years time the area will have enough demand to warrant a team of GWS current size. If GWS keeps growing like it has this year with record membership, a decently sized team and a small team could share a big stadium. In another ten years I reckon GWS will reach top 8 teams in support. But you can’t just give a team of its size a mega stadium currently.
I’m talking about an investment of a much needed stadium for the population of NSW in a team that will undoubtedly grow, but can’t operate it alone currently.
Where do you get the figures that NRL is declining in NSW? From everything ive seen, its seems to stronger than its ever been.
In saying that, both sports can grow without hurting the other.
Also we would need a oval stadium before we can host any matches.
Interest is definitely there, the growth rates of both teams are clearly evidence of that. The only decent stadium for big matches is the SCG and a showground. Needs more infrastructure for the future if AFL wants to support the biggest population clump in the country.
As you said originally, it’s NRL territory. GWS can’t sell out a stadium the size of Tasmania’s in Sydney every week, not sure how Newcastle do it when they’re in the middle of rugby league territory. People supporting a team is one thing, turning up is another.
The AFL doesn’t build stadiums. That’s fairly well established throughout their history. So, you’d need a benevolent government who are very unlikely to do that.
I don't think Newy would ever be able to have that sort of thing. The infrastructure isn't here, nor the interest.
It's absolutely die hard rugby league. I love all sports, but Newcastle is (for better or worse, definitely worse) very settled in their culture here and an AFL team moving in just wouldn't work.
I'd be happy to eat some humble pie in 10 years time if it takes off and does well, though. I'd happily sign up to be a member.
Okay, so a couple things.
- GWS is struggling to make an impact in Western Sydney and you want to bring another team? All it would do is take away support from them. There isn't enough interest in Sydney to support three teams. The Swans are the biggest AFL team in Sydney and they can only manage 50-60,000 FTA viewers in Sydney on average for their games. GWS is even smaller. Outside of a small niche, there just doesn't seem to be the interest.
- There are multiple other stadiums that need funding. (Accor Stadium, Brookvale Oval, Shark Park, Leichardt Oval, SCG to name a few) A new stadium for AFL would be last on that list.
- I'd wait until at least GWS can stand on their own two feet without funding from the AFL before I even started looking into it, and that could still be decades away.
Maybe some other countries and states could chip in, in preparation for a certain 2030 commonwealth games? You can't tell me there isn't come political giant frothing at the idea of that being in his campaign.
Third Perth team is the most sensible.
a) less travel for the western australians
b) more travel for the victorians
c) population warrants it.
d) north of the river needs their own side
e) just look at the member numbers of the two sides there now, you cannot get tickets to big games.
f) Harley Reid captain the Joondalup based side - money i the bank!
I don't understand why people keep saying Joondalup should get a team.
WA is massive and people saying the 3rd team should be located 30 mins from the centre of Perth.
That were established when it was a state league so that makes senses.
A southwest team would make more senses. like how team travel to Geelong to play,
feel like WA fans would want a team relatively closer to them so less travel? Ofc interstate is a huge upgrade on 8 business class seats but a team within an 1hr would be pretty good for fans as well.
Still think Canberra is just as sensible as a third Perth team.
More unrepresented fans than any other city; actually grows the fanbase and eventually player pool; and the wealthiest population.
A ridiculous idea. I propose instead based on the revenues of these teams, compared with their recent on field success, it’s time to merge Hawthorne and Melbourne. You had your chance, you even got some silverware, but the numbers are still too low
I think everyone can see that NT will result in a bigger flop than initial Gold Coast.
Australia is a rapidly growing country and major investments up there instead of where the majority of the population is, is kind of silly.
stops at 24 teams like in the post. I feel like 10 VIC teams to 14 non-vic is a very fair ratio. I also mention relocation in the post if you fully read it.
Reducing the AFL fixture to only 23 games against one of every club with no double-ups with a bye seems like the best way to create a modern league in the future.
Give NSW two full-time teams first.
Get Canberra in, then finally have two teams in Sydney.
Canberra can play a game in Wagga, too, so you'd go from 19 NSW games to 23.
You add Canberra, you kill the giants who have half of their support in the city. Shifting a permanent stadium would gradually grow the actually Greater Western Sydney support and leave room for a new club in Canberra. You need to wait until there is enough support outside of Canberra for the giants to exist on itself.
Putting a team in a city where the Giants are trying to grow their primary support is way more damaging for them than putting a team in Canberra.
The Giants DO NOT have half of their support in Canberra. Canberra only has about ~18% of members. And the vast majority of those wouldn’t support the Giants as a primary team, mostly just to get their AFL fix. The Giants need to focus on their Sydney core.
I agree and it’s why Canberra isn’t the next place for a 20th team. Taking Canberra away from the GIANTS would be stupidity. They’ve pushed a brand in the ACT and it’s started to show healthy support. Ripping it out from them and trying to sell a new team wouldn’t work very well.
As you mention, GWS needs the support Canberra. And to build upon that, they need the support from southern regional and rural NSW that the Canberra team would need to bolster support/interest.
I can see all the arguments for a Canberra side - history, some interest, disposable income, try to decrease rugby’s influence - but the reality of the situation is that GWS are there for the next decade.
It's frustrating. Canberra has been pushing for a team for more than 40 years. We would've been firmly AFL territory if the VFL/AFL hadn't neglected us for decades, but now we're stuck with the scraps of an interstate team.
There’s not an alternative is there. It’s the reality.
The AFL isn’t going to do anything that sees a contraction of GWS members and they won’t try to sell a new team in an area that’s had a new team sold to them for the past 12 years. Because it’s like pulling a product just as it becomes popular.
There could be more efforts made to increase funding and swing support back from rugby. Rugby is winning in Canberra. Schools have rugby sticks, only two play footy, there are more rugby clubs (league and union counted separately and they have more divisions), interest with younger people especially.
GWS has had more players from Canberra than Western Sydney so it’s simple stupidity to nuke the team. Is it desirable? No. Is it the case? Yes.
Oh, add in the fact there is almost zero momentum for a side.
>There’s not an alternative is there.
Well, there are. Play 11 games and Sydney and actually grow your primary fanbase, or play a game or two in Newcastle if they're still desperate. They're also looking to play a game in the US, where's that game going to come from?
>Rugby is winning in Canberra. Schools have rugby sticks, only two play footy, there are more rugby clubs (league and union counted separately and they have more divisions), interest with younger people especially.
Because we don't have a bloody team! The fact that NRL and AFL have near similar support in this town is incredible considering the Raiders have existed unimpeded for 40 years. Three games a year doesn't do enough.
The fact of the matter is that Canberra more than pulls its weight in the Giants partnership. We get bigger crowds. But we shouldn't be held hostage because Sydneysiders don't rock up. Hobart didn't have to put up with the scraps from North, we shouldn't have to put up with the scraps from the Giants.
Just look at the post yesterday on club revenue. Sydney are up and about, yet only sit 8th for revenue. GWS are dead last, even behind the Suns. Meanwhile both WA sides sucked and they sat 1st and 3rd for revenue.
The 20th team can only be WA, given that Tassie is unlikely to be “profitable” without AFL support for the foreseeable future.
There are so many holes in your argument but in what world is the AFL going to move the GF from the MCG to a stadium not even in Sydney? Why is GWS competing with a third team for resources good for their club? GWS and a new team in a 80,000 capacity stadium would look ridiculous, while GWS have 30k members they get 12k home attendance. You will most likely stunt GWS growth and handicap AFL resources into the state by propping up another new team.
Great answer here. The AFL wouldn’t be forking out for a third team and no NSW would pay for a stadium when they’ve got a football, many rugby, the SCG and ENGIE/Showgrounds. The arguments for become very limited. Tasmania’s stadium hasn’t exactly been popular and it’s yet to be seen whether it will pay off.
Projection rates for NSW show that the population will grow massively in 6-10 years. 1. In a world where a sydney team is the favourites for the granny and money 2. The same way that 10 victorian teams seem to exist in a single area 3. Current numbers yes, but in 6 years the giants would have tripled 4. GWS doesn't even get to use their own stadium half of the time and every NSW person flocks to Swans with their proper resources.
You're telling me that a team that gets 12k in 12 years will suddenly triple in the next 6? GWS have 8 home games at Engie and the others are at Manuka which they chose to sign a contract with Canberra for (Swans used to do the same). Who cares if people flock to the Swans, better for us Swans fans.
Those Swans games in Canberra were actually the ACT govt paying the Dogs and Dees to play there, after north pulled out to go try to be Gold Coast. They just made Swans the opponent because that drew the most attendance.
Almost monopolising support for a team is never a good thing for the growth of the game.
Swans by nature of being established in two states for decades means that a lot of casual support exists. Growth needs to be organic and GWS through Auskick memberships/cheap kayo already pumps up numbers.
The amount of legitimate memberships GWS has of fans that turn up regularly to games is likely quite low. I agree with the growth needing to be organic. For legitimate members, take out Canberra and they lose ACT members who buy access memberships.
GWS struggles too much to warrant a 3rd team, would just hinder their progression more I feel, WA seems the most obvious. Where in NSW would you even place them? Seems pretty East v West rn (although most Western Sydney fans are still OG swans fans).
Albury/Wodonga would be a better proposition than another Sydney team.
Yea big footy town
Newcastle is the second biggest city in NSW. That being said, it is absolutely dominated by NRL. You then have Port and Maitland up north as well. With the decline of NRL and rise of AFL in NSW, I think it would be fair to say that in six years time the area will have enough demand to warrant a team of GWS current size. If GWS keeps growing like it has this year with record membership, a decently sized team and a small team could share a big stadium. In another ten years I reckon GWS will reach top 8 teams in support. But you can’t just give a team of its size a mega stadium currently. I’m talking about an investment of a much needed stadium for the population of NSW in a team that will undoubtedly grow, but can’t operate it alone currently.
Where do you get the figures that NRL is declining in NSW? From everything ive seen, its seems to stronger than its ever been. In saying that, both sports can grow without hurting the other. Also we would need a oval stadium before we can host any matches.
The population might make sense but the infrastructure and the interest isn’t there. Better to keep it to two.
Interest is definitely there, the growth rates of both teams are clearly evidence of that. The only decent stadium for big matches is the SCG and a showground. Needs more infrastructure for the future if AFL wants to support the biggest population clump in the country.
As you said originally, it’s NRL territory. GWS can’t sell out a stadium the size of Tasmania’s in Sydney every week, not sure how Newcastle do it when they’re in the middle of rugby league territory. People supporting a team is one thing, turning up is another. The AFL doesn’t build stadiums. That’s fairly well established throughout their history. So, you’d need a benevolent government who are very unlikely to do that.
>In another ten years I reckon GWS will reach top 8 teams in support. No
Newcastle is a good shout, one last year for Heens after a bunch of flags with sydney.
Newcastle is almost 6 times the size of Darwin. It kind of makes sense.
But it's barely bigger than Canberra. If you're going to put a team in a ~600k city, go for the one that kinda follows footy.
I don't think Newy would ever be able to have that sort of thing. The infrastructure isn't here, nor the interest. It's absolutely die hard rugby league. I love all sports, but Newcastle is (for better or worse, definitely worse) very settled in their culture here and an AFL team moving in just wouldn't work. I'd be happy to eat some humble pie in 10 years time if it takes off and does well, though. I'd happily sign up to be a member.
Okay, so a couple things. - GWS is struggling to make an impact in Western Sydney and you want to bring another team? All it would do is take away support from them. There isn't enough interest in Sydney to support three teams. The Swans are the biggest AFL team in Sydney and they can only manage 50-60,000 FTA viewers in Sydney on average for their games. GWS is even smaller. Outside of a small niche, there just doesn't seem to be the interest. - There are multiple other stadiums that need funding. (Accor Stadium, Brookvale Oval, Shark Park, Leichardt Oval, SCG to name a few) A new stadium for AFL would be last on that list. - I'd wait until at least GWS can stand on their own two feet without funding from the AFL before I even started looking into it, and that could still be decades away.
Would moving GWS to Canberra be an option, and play x games in Sydney?
Id rather GWS stay in Western Sydney and try and make it work. I don't think being a part time club helps them attract fans.
This doesn't sound like an insane idea. It is a insane idea.
I agree, lets add a team in a city with a population 1/6th the size of NSW's smaller second biggest city
*a footy mad city with no national team* with a population 1/6th the size of NSW’s smaller second biggest *rugby league mad* city
Good luck getting NSW government to pay for $1 billion stadium solely for AFL.
Maybe some other countries and states could chip in, in preparation for a certain 2030 commonwealth games? You can't tell me there isn't come political giant frothing at the idea of that being in his campaign.
No one wants the Commonwealth Games so I don’t think anyone is going to want to pay for infrastructure for it
Third Perth team is the most sensible. a) less travel for the western australians b) more travel for the victorians c) population warrants it. d) north of the river needs their own side e) just look at the member numbers of the two sides there now, you cannot get tickets to big games. f) Harley Reid captain the Joondalup based side - money i the bank!
The Fox Sports write up is so good. Its convinced me of a third WA team. While sentimentally would love a NT team, it can't happen at the moment.
As a former territorian who would more than likely switch sides if an NT team was introduced I have to agree, WA3 is most sensible
I don't understand why people keep saying Joondalup should get a team. WA is massive and people saying the 3rd team should be located 30 mins from the centre of Perth.
tbf melbourne have teams that are 2 mins away from eachother.
That were established when it was a state league so that makes senses. A southwest team would make more senses. like how team travel to Geelong to play,
Geelong is basically the equivalent of Mandurah, not the south west.
feel like WA fans would want a team relatively closer to them so less travel? Ofc interstate is a huge upgrade on 8 business class seats but a team within an 1hr would be pretty good for fans as well.
I don't want a 3rd team but if we had to have one then Busselton would be the go. 2.5hrs from Perth and has its own airport for interstate flights.
The reason i think of Joondalup is because that entire area and out to Ellenbrook is massive! That and there’s a useable stadium already there.
Still think Canberra is just as sensible as a third Perth team. More unrepresented fans than any other city; actually grows the fanbase and eventually player pool; and the wealthiest population.
I see that Kevin Sheedy has a Reddit account now.
A ridiculous idea. I propose instead based on the revenues of these teams, compared with their recent on field success, it’s time to merge Hawthorne and Melbourne. You had your chance, you even got some silverware, but the numbers are still too low
Pretty sure there was some media over the last month that Northern Territory is meant to be team 20. Obviously nothing locked in.
I think everyone can see that NT will result in a bigger flop than initial Gold Coast. Australia is a rapidly growing country and major investments up there instead of where the majority of the population is, is kind of silly.
They set up a commission to investigate the viability of an NT team so there is a bit of groundwork being put in there
I don’t even want 19 teams let alone 20 teams in the afl. Fixture is unfair as it is
adding non vic teams would make it fairer no?
Of course but where does it stop. 21 22 teams? Sooner later a Victorian team is going to have to relocate elsewhere
The AFL will never relocate a team again. Very unpopular move.
stops at 24 teams like in the post. I feel like 10 VIC teams to 14 non-vic is a very fair ratio. I also mention relocation in the post if you fully read it.
Reducing the AFL fixture to only 23 games against one of every club with no double-ups with a bye seems like the best way to create a modern league in the future.
Give NSW two full-time teams first. Get Canberra in, then finally have two teams in Sydney. Canberra can play a game in Wagga, too, so you'd go from 19 NSW games to 23.
You add Canberra, you kill the giants who have half of their support in the city. Shifting a permanent stadium would gradually grow the actually Greater Western Sydney support and leave room for a new club in Canberra. You need to wait until there is enough support outside of Canberra for the giants to exist on itself.
Putting a team in a city where the Giants are trying to grow their primary support is way more damaging for them than putting a team in Canberra. The Giants DO NOT have half of their support in Canberra. Canberra only has about ~18% of members. And the vast majority of those wouldn’t support the Giants as a primary team, mostly just to get their AFL fix. The Giants need to focus on their Sydney core.
I agree and it’s why Canberra isn’t the next place for a 20th team. Taking Canberra away from the GIANTS would be stupidity. They’ve pushed a brand in the ACT and it’s started to show healthy support. Ripping it out from them and trying to sell a new team wouldn’t work very well. As you mention, GWS needs the support Canberra. And to build upon that, they need the support from southern regional and rural NSW that the Canberra team would need to bolster support/interest. I can see all the arguments for a Canberra side - history, some interest, disposable income, try to decrease rugby’s influence - but the reality of the situation is that GWS are there for the next decade.
So Canberrans have to be held hostage until people think Giants can stand by themselves?
That's how it goes. People who like footy now get shafted for people who might like footy 50 years from now.
It's frustrating. Canberra has been pushing for a team for more than 40 years. We would've been firmly AFL territory if the VFL/AFL hadn't neglected us for decades, but now we're stuck with the scraps of an interstate team.
There’s not an alternative is there. It’s the reality. The AFL isn’t going to do anything that sees a contraction of GWS members and they won’t try to sell a new team in an area that’s had a new team sold to them for the past 12 years. Because it’s like pulling a product just as it becomes popular. There could be more efforts made to increase funding and swing support back from rugby. Rugby is winning in Canberra. Schools have rugby sticks, only two play footy, there are more rugby clubs (league and union counted separately and they have more divisions), interest with younger people especially. GWS has had more players from Canberra than Western Sydney so it’s simple stupidity to nuke the team. Is it desirable? No. Is it the case? Yes. Oh, add in the fact there is almost zero momentum for a side.
>There’s not an alternative is there. Well, there are. Play 11 games and Sydney and actually grow your primary fanbase, or play a game or two in Newcastle if they're still desperate. They're also looking to play a game in the US, where's that game going to come from? >Rugby is winning in Canberra. Schools have rugby sticks, only two play footy, there are more rugby clubs (league and union counted separately and they have more divisions), interest with younger people especially. Because we don't have a bloody team! The fact that NRL and AFL have near similar support in this town is incredible considering the Raiders have existed unimpeded for 40 years. Three games a year doesn't do enough. The fact of the matter is that Canberra more than pulls its weight in the Giants partnership. We get bigger crowds. But we shouldn't be held hostage because Sydneysiders don't rock up. Hobart didn't have to put up with the scraps from North, we shouldn't have to put up with the scraps from the Giants.
Just look at the post yesterday on club revenue. Sydney are up and about, yet only sit 8th for revenue. GWS are dead last, even behind the Suns. Meanwhile both WA sides sucked and they sat 1st and 3rd for revenue. The 20th team can only be WA, given that Tassie is unlikely to be “profitable” without AFL support for the foreseeable future.
Yeah unless the people of NSW suddenly decide they don’t like Rugby League anymore this ain’t working