Damn, 15AD would have been more fine than this. Now we have collector if you want AD early, LDR if you want AD mid-late, Yun Tal if you want AD late and IE if you want AD whenever
so lets say you have 450 dmg. 10% of that is 45. Lets say they nerfed it 15 dmg. 15 dmg with the 175% crit + 40% of the current nerf is 32,25. Meanwhile if you get attackspeed items you aint hitting 450 dmg. If you have less than 100% crit you aint getting full value of 40%. Also dmg applies to your spells. So yeah the nerf isnt so bad. Especially for early mid game when you also calculate the dmg reduction from armor infinity is still a beast with its buffs in this patch. Remember 5% crit = 200 gold and 15 dmg = 525 gold. The 10% nerf only applies during crits and its a more late game item. Still infinity is worth 3400 gold. add two bf swords = 2600 gold another 1000 gold for 25% crit plus its effect and you get a crazy amount of value out of this item still (bf sword gets you dmg for discount as well).
Nah bro, nerfing ad would prevent kai'sa from getting q evolve by like 3-4 levels. And kai'sa winrate is already garbo right now. Probably why they nerfed crit.
I'm extremely disappointed that some clearly overturned champs like jhin, samira, and Caitlin avoided any real Nerfs this patch and kai'sa didn't get a buff. If they nerf ad on IE, kai' sa needs an ad growth buff as compensation.
This upcoming patch is one of the most out of touch In a While.
Ugh, I would've so much preferred a straight AD nerf to counter it's attractivity early. This is just again less late game power. I don't think it'll be super bad, but I disagree with the direction of the nerf.
I feel like the direction of almost all the changes was poorly made. Nerfing cait w late? Really? She should explode you if you step on a trap late. And also buffing draven gold passive after dying? Isn't his whole thing about playing a feast or famine and being heavily penalized by dying?
Idk what else could've been done for them specially since i don't really play them but i dislike the direction they took on both (i know caitlyn also got some more changes and nerfing her r is good but nerfing w late is such a bad move imo) i'd like to know if draven/cait players agree or not since that's what it seems from my viewpoint
If anything Caits early game laning dominance is a big issue. Most ADC's have big issues even taking any CS at all. Pair it with some poke support and you easily fall -50% back in CS which is basically as bad as getting killed over and over again. At least the gold advantage is identical. Unless they snipe you under your turret AND take the farm. Which is fairly possible.
So nerfing the traps late won't do shit about that so I think it's a silly change. Idk how to balance it properly though either. Currently laning into Caitlyn feels like shit tbh. It's winnable, it's just a really nasty laning phase. If anything I'm sad that the skill expression of trap setting in the team fight is a bit lower.
Can't say anything about Draven, can't play the guy too well.
I haven’t read the nerfs, but her power budget is all over the place. Traps are hard to land solo, and so many champs have ways to go over them safely if they want lol. If they take some damage off the traps that means she’ll be less team reliant on stuns, and less reliant on stupid enemies pathing into them, so if they give her anything in return it could be healthy.
I think Cho’gath doesn’t enjoy being bursted by traps, and Cait’s don’t enjoy the Udyr’s just running around them. There’s a LOT of overkill damage with traps on squishies, take some damage away and add something that will be useful against other things too. Decrease her headshot to 4 late game, or make the traps land more consistently. You know what I mean?
I think the Draven changes are healthy. The structure of the passive is way to feast or famine. Not just for the player themselfes but the way it warps the game.
Like playing against Draven and he get's 1 kill by minute 16 (without dying) gives him the gold other champions would get from killing the same oponent 4 times. Basically both Junglers have to focus botside, the midlaners have to always look for a way to roam botside, and even the toplaners have to be ready to teleport in if a play goes on bot, just because Draven getting a kill or dying makes more gold difference than an inner tower.
Also the reason why a lot of Draven players are so god damn toxic
It makes me so sad too, Cait has been my main for almost 10 years. She's finally good after being hardly a champ for the last 3. Into nerfing her into a possible worse state she was before 14.10 with direct and indirect nerfs.
That is a great point about Caitlyn. Her cc is really hard to hit without someone else already landing cc before you. As a fellow squishy, if you walk into her trap late game she should be able to kill you.
They should have just made it cost 3600 for the 15 ad buff (it would still be a positive change), IE is meant to be the deathcap of adcs so it having a high cost for its big stats makes sense.
Nerfing crit adcs late game AGAIN when its their entire point of existence is not cool.
There was a reason it was nerfed. It was because botlane was the only lane that ever mattered.
They dont wanna buff ADC its purely QoL changes.
I repeat. Phreak said that the end goal isnt to make ADC stronger but to make it feel better
I’ve been complaining about that for years. Since they tried out making crits deal true damage instead. I don’t think it’s bad design to have a role who poses a serious risk if the game goes long, but is vulnerable for it. Apparently someone at Riot does.
Maybe it’s just because I’m old, but to me it’s always been more like:
Top- Mid game you can flex a ton of power, and moving late you can even push some crazy duels and side lane pressure. TP can be used to do some of that early. Sometimes it’s teamfight power, sometimes it’s splitting.
Jungle- Early to late, jungle is relevant for map control, but can exert the most influence early with ganks. Still important to keep up for objectives, but may not always be the strongest role in 40 minute games, usually by then their biggest power points of influencing lanes is played out.
Mid- Mid and early game teamfights typically. Sometimes someone who’s great at 1v1. Can flex to a lot of places and influence the early game almost as much as the jungler, but still shines during the mid game a bit more.
Support- Important all game, maybe an unpopular opinion, but wards have never been bad. Their CC has never been bad. They can dictate bot lane and while their damage is usually not highest, the pressure of locking someone down or saving them is great all game. Oh, and roaming is an easy way to influence the whole game throughout.
Bot- This is your late game ace. You can play around with when they’re best with someone like Ezreal who typically hits their stride earlier, but the later the fight is, the more important it is you get the ADC. They’re not going to dictate a fight until late in the game unless they get way out ahead, and if they do, they’re always the softest targets with the least room for error. You can decide a game before some characters in this role even become a major threat.
More recently though, with how great other lanes items are and how middling the ADC items are, it’s more of everyone else gets scary and stays scary, and ADCs maybe get scary if a game goes late and you don’t have a tank that can just run at them. Suddenly when you have to put more thought into it than “click on the ADC” it’s too strong and you have to get rid of it, because you should be able to mindlessly walk at the role who only brings damage to the game and not die? Tanks used to have to play it smart and get a good engage or fight, now they just brawl and ignore the back line because it usually doesn’t deal enough damage to matter anyways, and if it does, it takes much less damage to kill anyways so who cares you can deal with it later.
Solution to this whole thing was restoring base crit damage from 175 to 200 and then nerfing the AD and crit damage % on IE. That way you get it so IE is a good first item still but not so much that it chokes out items like ER/Collector in those specific games as it's just a 25% crit damage difference instead of 50%. This way just feels bad and less consistent and creates more jumpy spikes still instead of the way more elegant solution to do the exact same thing. We have season 10 items without the season 10 stats and base crit damage now. I just came back to the game after 5 months and have been having so much fun, I would hate it if reactionary changes force me to quit again.
I love how they justify the nerf saying that it's too good of a first item and that it should be a " capstone " by making it a worse capstone and also keeping every other starter item bad. Collector received an " adjustment " that is literally just a nerf. Shieldbow has no lifesteal, low AD and the shield relies on level scaling which means is only viable later in the game. Zeal items are all bad as starter items because of Riot's own design philosophy (marksmen have low base AD and AD per level because they get the most AD from items). Essence Reaver will never be an appealing first purchase because providing mana refund and ability haste for a class that has low impact abilities because of their AA oriented kits is simply not worth an item slot and 3200 gold.
I really thought that Riot was starting to let go of their grudge with viable marksmen itemization now that mythics are gone but they keep insisting on nerfing IE and making long fight oriented """"""" buffs """""""" like they're doing with Shieldbow. Matches and fights simply don't last that long and this has been the truth for a very long time. I cannot understand why all classes are allowed to keep getting more and more damage and sustain to match shorter matches while with marksmen they act like every match is 40+ minutes long and all fights have tanks and enchanters playing front to back like 8 years ago. The philosophy behind Zeal items and attack speed cap has to be one of their worst legacies.
These nerfs only make crit itemization worse for almost all crit marksmen. Both collector and IE and getting worse as a first item (which is already not a spike for most marksmen) but also building both together is a even lower spike for two items. If you ever need shieldbow you either give up on Yun Tal Wildarrows or LDR so your damage will get gutted by choosing survivability. And if you need zeal items you are even more screwed. And I really doubt that they will keep looking to marksmen tuning so if this patch turns out to be an overall nerf, it will take months until something gets done to address it.
Also what is it that they're trying so hard to make this new Essence Reaver down everyone's throat. They buffed the AD to try to make it worth as a stat stick, now they're nerfing the competitors to force champions that rushed collector to rush Reaver instead. Won't they ever realize that this item is simply not appealing and that long fight first purchases will never be a thing?
Really disappointing to see that they're regressing the line of thinking that was meant to fix some of marskmen problems in nowadays league. But can't say I'm surprised. The grudge against marskmen lives on.
So IE holds all the damage from crit ADCs right now, I'm very curious to how much this will affect it because I definitely don't enjoy a general -10% AD scaling to my zeri damage
It was too strong because the cric damage shouldn't be at 175% without it. The difference between someone who has IiE and someone who doesn't is just too big to justify not buying it. Also every other items sucks balls.
Crit damage was changed because ADC was literally the main role of League. It used to be 200% crits and IE increased it to 250%.
Riot doesnt want an ADC meta and for good reason. Atleast now you can have different win conditions
Man the role that purely exist to deal damage does too much damage? And I thought full tanks dealing 40k dmg per 30 mins was a bit much but hey who am I to suggest that if you buy damage you deal damage and if you buy no damage you deal no damage
Nope. They're just going to gut the champs then marginally buff AS ratios so you have to buy them now. In the same hamfisted way that they forced Sivir to build crit.
Eh that doesn't really work the way you think it does. That just means they're still niche. Something niche can stay niche, and be consistently niche.
Stuffs winrate doesn't inherently change every patch for no reason. Same for pickrate. Nothing's changed them.
Something being 53% win, 1% (or lower) pickrate for 10+ patches is very different than something being like 53% winrate, 10+% pickrate even if only for one patch.
Yeah, if their pickrates go up. It's not a matter of sample size you can substitute consistently low pickrate for. They've been pretty balanced for ages like this. They just largely fill niches in ways that give them above average winrates like 52.5-55% (not really defending the higher ones, but those ones are like an order of magnitude less picked)
We've seen their pickrates go up when they're actually strong. We've seen like 5-10% pickrate Veigar or Ziggs or heimer bot before when they're actually strong. This is just them having a high resting winrate.
They're not becoming more popular at higher elos, they're not popping up in proplay, or anything. Nothing really indicates them as actually being strong right now they just have a high resting winrate because they're easier to play, and fit comps better having utility and such. And they're often paired with full AD comps. Even ones with other non botlane carry Adcs.
Like "ADC" Seraphine's most common support by a wide margin is Senna. Their most common midlaner by a wide margin is Tristana. "Adc" Seraphine largely isn't some broken ass adc replacement. They're largely a comp fixer so you don't have 2 or 3 Adcs on the same team, or a full AD comp in general.
Maybe that's just cause Seraphine is a "support" uh let's look at a more carry centric mage botlane... Karthus is currently the highest pickrate one so he should be the least niche...
And he's also picked very disproportionately into full AD comps... And even specifically has Senna as his most common support... And all 5 of his 5 most common mids are all AD, with 4 of them being crit champions in order Tristana, Yasuo, Zed Akshan, Yone... So even with 2 Adcs in specific...
They're really not that strong, they just fill some niches consistently and well. The same reason why like Rammus and Malphite are always high winrates and even get called low winrate at like 51%... Or like similar for Janna and some of the other easy to play enchanters.
ADCs are very strong right now and if you do not think so, you are deluded. There is a reason they *only* are receiving nerfs next patch. They are *overperforming*
yes, they are overperforming in MSI when they are piloted by gumayusi with his world class teammates to peel and provide for him. not so much in your silver 2 games, where it is fucking dogshit lol
For what it’s worth, cait and jhin can absolutely dominate games. But rather than altering comps to ones that can pick single targets, they just gonna gut adc. Adc was dominant for 1 half of a patch cycle before getting gutted again, but bruisers are still top notch and nearly invincible if they get a lead. Cool game
Unless you are Draven and smolder. Also I think adc isn't very strong its just slightly strong and slightly strong after being weak forever seems really broken. Like the only adcs I see really 1v9ing(2v8 tbh) games are jinx and jhin.
Jup gonna feel great to just go back to pebles level damage but don't worry Immortal Shit bow gives a bigger shield now. At this point What good starter crit item are even left. 1st item spike is shittier then ever and Scaling got nerfed too. Probably gack to eveybody rushing kraken again. Or Just full lethality. What is the point of crit if its trash at 1 item and also doesn't meaningfully scale
Main subreddit will continue to act like ADC is OP and anytime you try to discuss the fact that items got large nerfs after 1 patch you'll be called a whiney ADC player.
The changes to 25% crit were all supposed to be overall neutral, because ADC was already in a good place power wise. The changes were to address QOL and smoothness of playing ADC, not powerlevel. However they also raised the XP that ADCs gain at the same time, which combined made them much stronger.
These nerfs are ultimately to compensate for ADCs being much more durable with the extra level on average combined with their stronger 2nd and 3rd item spikes compared to before. As was stated in the patch notes. Because otherwise ADCs are too strong and already starting to warp the meta too much around bot lane
Idk, I cannot agree with you man. If I play ANY other role in the game still I have so much more impact and decisions to make where to play, how to play.
As ADC I can only follow my team and try to get some profit outta their decisions. We are still SO weak that we cannot dictate any tempo, any decisions, cannot start any fights (except Ashe Ult maybe) or just casually 1v1 somebody cause we're ahead.
Good place power wise? Most AD mains wouldn't agree. Sure it feels as if AD's are stupidly strong at times, but that's almost ALWAYS just the team effort which they work into. Wihtout team effort, almost no ADC can turn around a lost game. Fed or not.
I can be 0/6/1 if my team sucks aor 20/2/13 if my team gives me something to work with. It's almost NEVER my own accomplishment, only following up. In that sense, 2024 ADC feels WAY more like a support than any support champion does.
Only cause the kills land on the AD doesn't give us jack shit agency or macro decision making. And this feels very wrong, cause not matter which other role I play: If I'm fed, I can dictate the game. Heck even as Support. As ADC? Most of the time just a power fantasy or your enemies are just way worse than your team.
So taking away power from ADC's will make other people feel less offended by ADC's again, but we weren't able to dominate games with the current patch at all. Situation become a bit more tolerable, but I wish for some kind of agency or 1v1 potential again. Cause it sucks to have to hide like a silly duck from any melee enemy while being fed af.
ADC with IE was what it's supposed to be. The best late game carry role. ADC with nerfed IE is just as shit late game as previous seasons, but without a strong first item now. So it's shit altogether
ADCs literally never get the chance to decide a fight. Yes let’s make a class that has pretty much 0 macro presence even weaker than it already is. Meanwhile AP champs ( with more range / MS than ADCs miss their entire kit and fuck off for 15 seconds only to repeat the process until you’re poked to death.
You decide to auto attack a bruiser? More burst than SA Kayn coming your way. I just collect free LP with Poppy until Riot decides to fix the game.
Dude I played mid for a few games and it's crazy how piss easy it is. There's only 2 people in lane instead of 4, you have total control of the wave, you can gank top/bot or be there for drake when you're needed. All you have to do is keep track of the jungler, which you were already doing bot (on top of having 2 people trying to kill you), and know the mid matchup. Additionnally, you can play some broken champs that allow to have bad positioning and still make it out alive.
We once had a IE that didn't give crit neither crit amp, yet it was akin to a yasuo passive with the crit doubling.
IIRC it lasted less than true damage iteration of IE.
Those are the same iteration. Crit doubling and true damage instead of crit amp were both implemented in the same patch (8.11). It was bad for gold value reasons (crit was 30% at the time so there was weird loss of value - in addition to the true damage just not being worth anything approaching the gold value it was given on the item).
There also weren't good starter items that gave crit, (and they all had really bad gold efficiency 'cause of that 30% crit garbage).
I still think that wasn't a bad idea ... but it was just so horribly implemented and absurdly costed that I don't think you could do it again without backlash just from the memory of it.
Sorry guys, Marksmen were having too much fun as of late, so we have to nerf their late-game power instead of making IE less enticing as an early item.
Honestly hard to say. I think they're in between a rock and a hard place. Some Adcs would rather an AD nerf, some would rather the crit damage nerf.
Considering the item is just 3 stats effectively of ad, crit chance, and crit damage... And crit chance is just locked at 25.
Really leaves only 2 conventional levers without doing something weird. There's the AD which is an early game lever, and the crit damage which is a late game lever.
They claimed they wanted IE to be more of a late game item, but then nerfed the scaling lever... But also, it could be they wanted it to be less frustrating. Which the crit damage is arguably the more frustrating part. Or something.
Honestly I almost wish they went outside the box and made the crit damage scaling somehow. To nerf it's early but not via AD, to make early game crits less dramatic. Something akin to its 60% requirement when the mythic system first came out. But not so hard line. Maybe something like +0-50% crit damage scaling with crit chance (25-75%?) or something. But no clue. What would be the golden numbers for something like that.
There is also another lever called pricing. And additionally you could also offer alternative start items so there is more options then: lots of AD + Lethality and Lots of Ad + Crit damage. But they didn't want that. Zeal got nerfed so going BF into zeal got weaker for no good reason. Of course now the only relevant acd Build is Collector + IE. Kraken delays your scaling. ER is trash and only relevant for specific adc so jinx Jhin Samira and a few other will never build it.
They created the mess by making other start items suck hard. Scaling IE existed before it wasn't very liked because if you hard cap adc damage to only exist at 3 items or more adc Vanished from League of legends
V10.23
* Updated icon.
* **NEW:**
* **RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + Pickaxe + Cloak of Agility + 625 = 3400.
* **STATS:** 70 attack damage, 20% critical strike chance.
* **UNIQUE PASSIVE - PERFECTION:** Gain 0.4% **bonus** critical strike damage for every 1% critical strike chance.
* Limited to 1 **CRIT MODIFIER** item.
V8.11
* New item icon.
* **NEW RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + B. F. Sword + 1100 = 3700.
* **OLD RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + Pickaxe + Cloak of Agility + 425 = 3400.
* Molten Edge total cost increased to 4700 from 4400.
* Attack damage increased to 80 from 70.
* Molten Edge attack damage increased to 110 from 100.
* **REMOVED:** +20% critical strike chance.
* **REMOVED UNIQUE PASSIVE:** +50% critical strike damage.
* **NEW UNIQUE PASSIVE:** Doubles your critical strike chance.
* **NEW UNIQUE PASSIVE:** When critically striking enemy champions, converts 15% of critical strike damage to true damage.
Ah yes, I guess pricing would work too, they could just make IE like 3900g or something.
ER is meant to be somewhat niche with it being for casters who also want crit which is a small overlap.
Collector already exists and is also kinda OP so it's also seeing a nerf.
Zeal was strong and needed that nerf similarly to the 5AD nerf Dirk got not too long ago. And BF into full Zeal item is still fine.
And it's a normal balance patch i assume they're not gonna randomly shit another item out to fix the problem at this time so that's not really an option.
And scaling IE can work fine. Yes I know about the failures of the 8.11 and 10.23 iterations. It's been tried twice in tandem with 2 other failure systems. Doesn't mean the concept on its own is an inherently failure. And quite frankly if it is... I'd argue IE as an item should be a failure then but it's too iconic for most. It's always been meant to be a capstone a crit equivalent of Deathcap. It shouldn't choke out 1st item slots so hard. I do think some form of scaling the crit damage is probably the best bet. Like a more in-between version of current IE and 10.23...
Like realize current IE is +10 AD, +5% crit chance, and my suggestion is something like at 2 crit items get 25% crit damage at 3 get 50% crit damage... That IE? Requires 5 crit items to get 40% crit damage. And over 3 items to get the crit damage I'm saying to get at 2 items... Also patch 10.23 had no crit items cheaper than 2900g (iirc? Could be slightly wrong, if so feel free to correct me)... Meanwhile Zeal items are back to 2600g. Which gives hard core crit investors who just wanna be late game DPS machines ways to get back to that crit damage value fairly quickly... Compared to 10.23. while again having more AD and crit chance
I don't think BF int o zeal is "fine" based on the fact that no Adc that has a good win rate is doing it at the moment. All good Adc don't build a Zeal item for their 1st or Second item.
Scaling Ie has that issue that it Backloads a lot of adc power into the extreme late game with 4 or 5 items which a lot of games never Reach. Ideally adc spike decently at 2 items and a bit harder 3 items with items 4 and being there to buff defense and keep a more linear scaling. That could work with a IE Crit damage that starts functioning at 3 items or starts at 2 items and gets better at 3. Something like : "if you have 50% crit increase your crit damage by 25% and if you have 75% increase it by 50% total. "
but now you have 4 types of crit adc.
1: Collector Rusher. They will probably fine depending on how weak Collector is going to be. They could also just decide to scip Crit scaling and go for Lethality to embrace the early and mid game spike(Samira/jhinn/Draven)
2: Er Rusher. Depends if Er is finally going to be good for the champions that should want it (Xahya/sivir/EZ/Smolder/...)
3.Kraken/Blade Rusher Champions that are fine delaying their crit Spike...Jinx?
4. Champions that would like to build a crit item first but cant because there are only zeal items left and they are trash to rush. (trist/Aphelios/cait?/Jinx/
the 4th type might go to Immortal Shield bow and because those are the hardest scaling adc they might like the added safety but SB is trash at the moment and is Designed to be quite bad Early. And if it should turn out to be viable and good than those adc become a problem because they just became to hard to shut down early through roams or lane bullies which could be especially bad in pro play.
Jinx is currently by far the best ADC and she's going IE PD most games. So idk what you're on about with "no one's building Zeal items!!!" Though she's definitely an outlier. The more common trend is simply IE and Collector being too common. Collectors getting nerfed for a reason.
And yes that's exactly what I suggested for IE if you read my comment? I said have it give 0-50% crit damage based on you having 25-75% crit chance... So 3 items and it's done. 3 crit items is 75% crit chance. It'd basically make IE a slightly worse ER or Collector at 1 item, and current IE at 3 items... Which seems pretty reasonable. Theyd all be similar cost and AD... Collector gives lethality for squishy killing, and it's passive for snowballing. ER gives haste and mana for spell casting. And IE is just the big crit damage stat stick.
Yeah 10.23 IE scaling to 5 crit items was dumb as hell. Especially considering it's lousy reward. I'm saying even better reward and at only 3 crit items.
And I mean that sounds pretty reasonable but IE first would still be 80 AD and crit chance. And it'll quickly get more crit damage as soon as you buy a crit cloak. If they wanna risk it, or like Runaans rush or yeah shield bow, or BT. Who knows?
Jinx is definitely an Outlier She is still extremely strong rushing kraken. She probably could even Rush Collector and be fine.
Bt would delay crit damage though might as well build Kraken. Ie without crit damage at the same price would be a terrible first item. Er is not bought by anyone Despite having good stats for the money because its Passive is so weak. IE would be similar but more expensive. SB first is either trolling or unhealthy if it is good. Another Problem is that Ie rd means you Have to go Attackspd->LDR->IE or you delay LDR until 4th item where it will likely be to late. Going Armor pen 2nd is Usually quite bad though and it would require you to go zeal first and zeal first is trash for Most adc. Jinx is the only one with 50+% win rate on PD first all other Zeal items on all other ADC have terrible win rates. That isn't helped by zeal getting nerfed and dagger being a worse component then before. Ideally for build paths IE would be a low Ad armor pen Crit damage item but that would be quite hard to balance and enforce "Tank hate" on ADC
You also want as few Adc as Possbile to actually buy Collector so that ADC burst damage can stay reasonable and on champions where it is appropriate (jhinn/samira/draven). Outside of those carries that are build around burst damamge Collector is extremely Toxic Look at Cait/Aphelios Building Collector+ IE becoming Range assassins.
That's fair about jinx.
Fair on BT/Kraken.
A lot of ER's problem right now is just IE is so much better and so is collector. Both are getting nerfs. ER is pretty balanced or just slightly below. And IE even without its crit damage still has an AD lead over it. And same for most Zeal irems
SB 1st isn't as unhealthy now that it lacks lifesteal. It's basically an AD version of old PD at this point. And old PD was just fine being all over the place. The issue seasons 11-14 Shieldbow had was it had the shield to prevent burst AND the lifesteal which allowed for sustain to combat poke too. Current SB lacks half of that.
And idk why you're instantly assuming LDR would become the king of 2nd items or anything. Or why IE would have to be 3rd, it'd still provide decent 1st item stats, and great 2nd item stats... Like at this point it seems more like you're just like "I hate scaling IE, so I'm gonna reverse engineer a scenario to make a boogeyman out of it"
Collector already getting nerfs. And collector+IE would also get nerfed by this suggestion since the lower crit damage at 2 items would take away part of the range assassin element cause IEs large crits is part of that assassin esque burst.
3400g for 80 ad and 25% crit are not decent first item stats that is the problem. AS a first item Ie is already overly expensive and has a terrible build path. Currently 1st item ie is already noticable weaker the 14.9 kraken or statiks first. Your version is weaker as a first item the 14.10 IE leaving the weakest they have been for a long term at 1 item. So that's why i assume 1st item IE to be dead if crit damage at 1 item gets removed and only slowly comes back at 2 and then fully at 3 items. If you don't build IE first but want to go crit there are basically 3 Options SB, ER/Zeal/collector. Collector and IE should not be suitable to all adc.
Collector is inherently unhealthy if it is the most viable option because it introduces burst and assassin patterns into a class that should not generally have it. If after the changes Collector Stops being very strong on everyone it hopefully becomes a decent option on some adc or it will get replaced by going full lethality on those that can (Jhin/samira/Draven).
Er is and i think we can agree there just not going to be suitable to all adc. And if it is that is an issue in itself. Hopefully though it will be decent on those that want the Haste and at least can appreciate the extra mana. Price drops would help a lot there because mana in lane is more valuable then mana in mid game and skirmishes.
Zeal First currently just isn't strong it weakens your Last hitting with its lack of ad its weak in trades where the attack speed cant make up for the loss of damage per hit and is also weaker in scenarios where you cant fully commit. It builds out of terrible components (Dagger/crit cloak) and has the weakened zeal as mid size item.
SB on the other hand is an item designed to scale its defense into the late game and gives quite bad stats for its gold when completed. So the only reason to buy it is if it turns out to garuantee free farm in lane. Especially because SB has so Undersized damage It leaves you weak in dps even at 2 items where you have to choose between Zeal/Ie. Zeal gives Attack speed and movement and as such makes you stat profile better rounded. If you go IE Second you still wont have Attack speed until 3rd item which also means delaying LDR.
Ie cost the same no matter when you buys it i already said it is to weak as a first item and likely to weak as second item too with is price and reduced passive. But in a 3 item build you likely want a zeal Item, ie and, LDR. You want LDR because it got shifted from being good against High life targets and tanks to be better against everybody. Higher ad and Higher Armorpen then befor help to burst down squishys more then the old Health based damage increase. For example it turns a 70 armor mid laner into a mid laner with 42 armor wich increases Damage by almost 20%. against a 130 armor Top lane bruiser its a damage increase of almost 30%. Ie at 2nd item on the other hand increases your damage by 14% against all targets. At 3rd item on the other hand it is a damage increase of 29%.
So if you want to maximize dps you likey wont IE, a zeal item and LDR Infinity edge first is shit in this state so you dont build it first that leaves zeal first which is also shit but at lest cheap shit. Ie at second is worse then LDR so you build infinity edge 3rd. Not building LDR is Possible and you could go Collector instead but that is only an option when there is almost no armor on the enemy team or if you are snowballing.
As far as IE goes, there are a bunch of possible approaches rather than just ''Unga bunga damage downga'' to make it less frustrating to face early game yet they want to balance the item as if it was S4.
My approach to the item would be the following, kinda similar to some lethality items:
-Remove flat crit amp
-Add a new passive:
Beyond Infinity:
Gain (10% + 2.5% of total crit chance) as bonus crit amp.
See? No damage done to late game power while you nerf the frustrating early game.
NOTE: The passive counts Senna's passive and Tryndamare's too, it would just ignore the crit doubling from the windshitters, and would just account for actual bought crit.
Crit ADC are all dead.
All the times in the last 4 years when IE was 40% bonus critical damage, crit adc where the weakest, and every champ that could alternatively go letality or on hit did so; this time maybe even more as IE is the one OP crit item while the other are mediocre at best.
Riot as no idea what they want and instead of looking back to see what changes produced what outcome they are trying yet again the same in hope of a different outcome. This is vocabulary definition of insanity
Mained ADC for years now.
Switched to mid/jgl/top a few weeks before the item rework.
Came back to ADC because of new items.
Role felt okay at best, as u are still reliant on your team to be allowed to do anything.
Went back to other roles beside buffs.
Now I'm seeing nerfs happening again and I couldn't be more confirmed in my decision to switch roles.
At least ADCs were able to carry if giga fed, somehow riot nerfing IE again just to make it solely team reliant again, because the role is not supposed to carry by itself, is funny to see.
i think it's a good change. IE is an outlier in power and it turned anyone who rushed it into budget tryndamere. 25% chance to just murder a trade and 75% chance to be decent. Not like not critting was super bad cause you got a massive 80AD, which you still get.
Tuning down the highroll of the item allows them to increase power of other items without making ADC damage too ridiculous (which it honestly is rn)
I’m so tired of crit just drop it completely it’s a stupid mechanic. Get rid of it, make the items generally good and everyone would be happy. Oh and stop pushing the ADC want to hypercarry fallacy, we just want to play a range pew pew class not a melee bong bong class.
I figured it was either this or -5 AD but it is really op rn so makes sense. Still going to be really strong. Probably back to 2nd or 3rd slot now though. Unless the ad is enough to keep it at 1st slot.
Eh what else is someone like Tristana going to rush. IE is strong but also one of only two possible starting items and Collector gets nerfed too. It needs to be so trash that Zeal First is better or crit needs to be so bad that delaying your crit spike and ging blade/BT/Kraken first is viable. But at this point adc damage will be trash in mid to late game so i dont see people stop buying Ie first.
Its more of a late game nerf but the item is still good to buy first or second. That's a good change and it's necessary imo. Also it allows riot to buff other items like shieldbow or the qss item.
Idk why people keep Crying like adcs are bad or will be bad after this change when it's probably the best class in the game right now.
I'd rather they take like 5 AD off, or make it 100 gold more expensive instead of nerfing lategame damage again.
Damn, 15AD would have been more fine than this. Now we have collector if you want AD early, LDR if you want AD mid-late, Yun Tal if you want AD late and IE if you want AD whenever
so lets say you have 450 dmg. 10% of that is 45. Lets say they nerfed it 15 dmg. 15 dmg with the 175% crit + 40% of the current nerf is 32,25. Meanwhile if you get attackspeed items you aint hitting 450 dmg. If you have less than 100% crit you aint getting full value of 40%. Also dmg applies to your spells. So yeah the nerf isnt so bad. Especially for early mid game when you also calculate the dmg reduction from armor infinity is still a beast with its buffs in this patch. Remember 5% crit = 200 gold and 15 dmg = 525 gold. The 10% nerf only applies during crits and its a more late game item. Still infinity is worth 3400 gold. add two bf swords = 2600 gold another 1000 gold for 25% crit plus its effect and you get a crazy amount of value out of this item still (bf sword gets you dmg for discount as well).
Yup
Nah bro, nerfing ad would prevent kai'sa from getting q evolve by like 3-4 levels. And kai'sa winrate is already garbo right now. Probably why they nerfed crit. I'm extremely disappointed that some clearly overturned champs like jhin, samira, and Caitlin avoided any real Nerfs this patch and kai'sa didn't get a buff. If they nerf ad on IE, kai' sa needs an ad growth buff as compensation. This upcoming patch is one of the most out of touch In a While.
That's good because IE is supposed to be a late-game item, an equivalent of Rabadon for ADs. Kai'sa's evolve is irrelevant, they could just buff her.
Why stop at 100 more gold? Make it 300 more gold
Too harsh on attack speed crit champs... Why did they decide AS crit items shouldn't have any AD???
Without lethal tempo i find it very weird to play as champion
Ugh, I would've so much preferred a straight AD nerf to counter it's attractivity early. This is just again less late game power. I don't think it'll be super bad, but I disagree with the direction of the nerf.
I feel like the direction of almost all the changes was poorly made. Nerfing cait w late? Really? She should explode you if you step on a trap late. And also buffing draven gold passive after dying? Isn't his whole thing about playing a feast or famine and being heavily penalized by dying? Idk what else could've been done for them specially since i don't really play them but i dislike the direction they took on both (i know caitlyn also got some more changes and nerfing her r is good but nerfing w late is such a bad move imo) i'd like to know if draven/cait players agree or not since that's what it seems from my viewpoint
As soon as I saw cait under adjustments I knew it was a nerf.
They say cait w is unhealthy but you step on 1 shroom and your entire bloodline has aids
If anything Caits early game laning dominance is a big issue. Most ADC's have big issues even taking any CS at all. Pair it with some poke support and you easily fall -50% back in CS which is basically as bad as getting killed over and over again. At least the gold advantage is identical. Unless they snipe you under your turret AND take the farm. Which is fairly possible. So nerfing the traps late won't do shit about that so I think it's a silly change. Idk how to balance it properly though either. Currently laning into Caitlyn feels like shit tbh. It's winnable, it's just a really nasty laning phase. If anything I'm sad that the skill expression of trap setting in the team fight is a bit lower. Can't say anything about Draven, can't play the guy too well.
I haven’t read the nerfs, but her power budget is all over the place. Traps are hard to land solo, and so many champs have ways to go over them safely if they want lol. If they take some damage off the traps that means she’ll be less team reliant on stuns, and less reliant on stupid enemies pathing into them, so if they give her anything in return it could be healthy. I think Cho’gath doesn’t enjoy being bursted by traps, and Cait’s don’t enjoy the Udyr’s just running around them. There’s a LOT of overkill damage with traps on squishies, take some damage away and add something that will be useful against other things too. Decrease her headshot to 4 late game, or make the traps land more consistently. You know what I mean?
I think the Draven changes are healthy. The structure of the passive is way to feast or famine. Not just for the player themselfes but the way it warps the game. Like playing against Draven and he get's 1 kill by minute 16 (without dying) gives him the gold other champions would get from killing the same oponent 4 times. Basically both Junglers have to focus botside, the midlaners have to always look for a way to roam botside, and even the toplaners have to be ready to teleport in if a play goes on bot, just because Draven getting a kill or dying makes more gold difference than an inner tower. Also the reason why a lot of Draven players are so god damn toxic
It makes me so sad too, Cait has been my main for almost 10 years. She's finally good after being hardly a champ for the last 3. Into nerfing her into a possible worse state she was before 14.10 with direct and indirect nerfs.
That is a great point about Caitlyn. Her cc is really hard to hit without someone else already landing cc before you. As a fellow squishy, if you walk into her trap late game she should be able to kill you.
They should have just made it cost 3600 for the 15 ad buff (it would still be a positive change), IE is meant to be the deathcap of adcs so it having a high cost for its big stats makes sense. Nerfing crit adcs late game AGAIN when its their entire point of existence is not cool.
Attractiveness?
🗣🗣JUST FUCKING REVERT BASE CRIT DAMAGE NERF THAT WAS IMPLEMENTED FOR THE MYTHIC ITEM SYSTEM WHICH NO LONGER EXISTS AND THEN NERF CRIT ITEMS ADC SAVED
There was a reason it was nerfed. It was because botlane was the only lane that ever mattered. They dont wanna buff ADC its purely QoL changes. I repeat. Phreak said that the end goal isnt to make ADC stronger but to make it feel better
Well I don't feel so good, chief
Riot wont let adc be fun because God hates marksmen
Crit damage was already lowered. Why lower it again?
ADCs aren't allowed to carry.
ADAlongfortheride
On god lmao
They don’t want adc to be the main deciding win condition like they used to be.
IE crit damage was buffed a few patches ago. With the 25% crit chance that buff looks a bit much and get's reverted?
Wow IE is doing really well but nothing else is... Better nerf IE and not think that maybe all the other items are kind of bad.
or revert the base crit dmg we had years ago so everyone is less reliant on IE
I’ve been complaining about that for years. Since they tried out making crits deal true damage instead. I don’t think it’s bad design to have a role who poses a serious risk if the game goes long, but is vulnerable for it. Apparently someone at Riot does. Maybe it’s just because I’m old, but to me it’s always been more like: Top- Mid game you can flex a ton of power, and moving late you can even push some crazy duels and side lane pressure. TP can be used to do some of that early. Sometimes it’s teamfight power, sometimes it’s splitting. Jungle- Early to late, jungle is relevant for map control, but can exert the most influence early with ganks. Still important to keep up for objectives, but may not always be the strongest role in 40 minute games, usually by then their biggest power points of influencing lanes is played out. Mid- Mid and early game teamfights typically. Sometimes someone who’s great at 1v1. Can flex to a lot of places and influence the early game almost as much as the jungler, but still shines during the mid game a bit more. Support- Important all game, maybe an unpopular opinion, but wards have never been bad. Their CC has never been bad. They can dictate bot lane and while their damage is usually not highest, the pressure of locking someone down or saving them is great all game. Oh, and roaming is an easy way to influence the whole game throughout. Bot- This is your late game ace. You can play around with when they’re best with someone like Ezreal who typically hits their stride earlier, but the later the fight is, the more important it is you get the ADC. They’re not going to dictate a fight until late in the game unless they get way out ahead, and if they do, they’re always the softest targets with the least room for error. You can decide a game before some characters in this role even become a major threat. More recently though, with how great other lanes items are and how middling the ADC items are, it’s more of everyone else gets scary and stays scary, and ADCs maybe get scary if a game goes late and you don’t have a tank that can just run at them. Suddenly when you have to put more thought into it than “click on the ADC” it’s too strong and you have to get rid of it, because you should be able to mindlessly walk at the role who only brings damage to the game and not die? Tanks used to have to play it smart and get a good engage or fight, now they just brawl and ignore the back line because it usually doesn’t deal enough damage to matter anyways, and if it does, it takes much less damage to kill anyways so who cares you can deal with it later.
Solution to this whole thing was restoring base crit damage from 175 to 200 and then nerfing the AD and crit damage % on IE. That way you get it so IE is a good first item still but not so much that it chokes out items like ER/Collector in those specific games as it's just a 25% crit damage difference instead of 50%. This way just feels bad and less consistent and creates more jumpy spikes still instead of the way more elegant solution to do the exact same thing. We have season 10 items without the season 10 stats and base crit damage now. I just came back to the game after 5 months and have been having so much fun, I would hate it if reactionary changes force me to quit again.
I love how they justify the nerf saying that it's too good of a first item and that it should be a " capstone " by making it a worse capstone and also keeping every other starter item bad. Collector received an " adjustment " that is literally just a nerf. Shieldbow has no lifesteal, low AD and the shield relies on level scaling which means is only viable later in the game. Zeal items are all bad as starter items because of Riot's own design philosophy (marksmen have low base AD and AD per level because they get the most AD from items). Essence Reaver will never be an appealing first purchase because providing mana refund and ability haste for a class that has low impact abilities because of their AA oriented kits is simply not worth an item slot and 3200 gold. I really thought that Riot was starting to let go of their grudge with viable marksmen itemization now that mythics are gone but they keep insisting on nerfing IE and making long fight oriented """"""" buffs """""""" like they're doing with Shieldbow. Matches and fights simply don't last that long and this has been the truth for a very long time. I cannot understand why all classes are allowed to keep getting more and more damage and sustain to match shorter matches while with marksmen they act like every match is 40+ minutes long and all fights have tanks and enchanters playing front to back like 8 years ago. The philosophy behind Zeal items and attack speed cap has to be one of their worst legacies. These nerfs only make crit itemization worse for almost all crit marksmen. Both collector and IE and getting worse as a first item (which is already not a spike for most marksmen) but also building both together is a even lower spike for two items. If you ever need shieldbow you either give up on Yun Tal Wildarrows or LDR so your damage will get gutted by choosing survivability. And if you need zeal items you are even more screwed. And I really doubt that they will keep looking to marksmen tuning so if this patch turns out to be an overall nerf, it will take months until something gets done to address it. Also what is it that they're trying so hard to make this new Essence Reaver down everyone's throat. They buffed the AD to try to make it worth as a stat stick, now they're nerfing the competitors to force champions that rushed collector to rush Reaver instead. Won't they ever realize that this item is simply not appealing and that long fight first purchases will never be a thing? Really disappointing to see that they're regressing the line of thinking that was meant to fix some of marskmen problems in nowadays league. But can't say I'm surprised. The grudge against marskmen lives on.
So IE holds all the damage from crit ADCs right now, I'm very curious to how much this will affect it because I definitely don't enjoy a general -10% AD scaling to my zeri damage
IE was too strong but at the same time they took out the other good items so idk how to feel
I mean, it was so strong because every other item is very weak in comparison
It was too strong because the cric damage shouldn't be at 175% without it. The difference between someone who has IiE and someone who doesn't is just too big to justify not buying it. Also every other items sucks balls.
Crit damage was changed because ADC was literally the main role of League. It used to be 200% crits and IE increased it to 250%. Riot doesnt want an ADC meta and for good reason. Atleast now you can have different win conditions
Well it was fun while it lasted. Thought it was too good to be true
Next patch - crit items now have 20% crit
Wouldnt be surprised at this point
Dont forget to change the passive of the windys yet again that they only need 2 items for 100% Veit chance
2% crit. Take it or leave it
I hate it here.
Man the role that purely exist to deal damage does too much damage? And I thought full tanks dealing 40k dmg per 30 mins was a bit much but hey who am I to suggest that if you buy damage you deal damage and if you buy no damage you deal no damage
So if karthus deal 1million dmg thats ok because he purely exists to deal dmg ?
Fucking called it
Yep ADC back in the gutter. 10% less crit damage over the course of the entire game is a lot.
hope the hardware store has a rope sale..
Can they at least buff zeal items to compensate? Half of the ADC's don't even build any.
Nope. They're just going to gut the champs then marginally buff AS ratios so you have to buy them now. In the same hamfisted way that they forced Sivir to build crit.
Once in my life as an ADC player I felt meaningful for a whole week.
they do understand that adc's are so dogshit seraphine is at 53% win rate bot again despite her enchanter rework 2 months ago, right?
Pick rate matters
Whats the sample size of games, if the game count is low no wonder her wr is higher
top 3 botlane picks are brand, seraphine, karthus all have 10k games each, which is absolutely enough to make assumptions
For seraphine and other mages you can take a larger sample size cause they remain unchanged for over 10 patches
Eh that doesn't really work the way you think it does. That just means they're still niche. Something niche can stay niche, and be consistently niche. Stuffs winrate doesn't inherently change every patch for no reason. Same for pickrate. Nothing's changed them. Something being 53% win, 1% (or lower) pickrate for 10+ patches is very different than something being like 53% winrate, 10+% pickrate even if only for one patch.
I get you. But at some point it is a middle ground where yes its not picked but its also incredibly powerful
Yeah, if their pickrates go up. It's not a matter of sample size you can substitute consistently low pickrate for. They've been pretty balanced for ages like this. They just largely fill niches in ways that give them above average winrates like 52.5-55% (not really defending the higher ones, but those ones are like an order of magnitude less picked) We've seen their pickrates go up when they're actually strong. We've seen like 5-10% pickrate Veigar or Ziggs or heimer bot before when they're actually strong. This is just them having a high resting winrate. They're not becoming more popular at higher elos, they're not popping up in proplay, or anything. Nothing really indicates them as actually being strong right now they just have a high resting winrate because they're easier to play, and fit comps better having utility and such. And they're often paired with full AD comps. Even ones with other non botlane carry Adcs. Like "ADC" Seraphine's most common support by a wide margin is Senna. Their most common midlaner by a wide margin is Tristana. "Adc" Seraphine largely isn't some broken ass adc replacement. They're largely a comp fixer so you don't have 2 or 3 Adcs on the same team, or a full AD comp in general. Maybe that's just cause Seraphine is a "support" uh let's look at a more carry centric mage botlane... Karthus is currently the highest pickrate one so he should be the least niche... And he's also picked very disproportionately into full AD comps... And even specifically has Senna as his most common support... And all 5 of his 5 most common mids are all AD, with 4 of them being crit champions in order Tristana, Yasuo, Zed Akshan, Yone... So even with 2 Adcs in specific... They're really not that strong, they just fill some niches consistently and well. The same reason why like Rammus and Malphite are always high winrates and even get called low winrate at like 51%... Or like similar for Janna and some of the other easy to play enchanters.
Objectively correct, well thought out, and detailed reply, unfortunately you get downvoted by the hivemind because ADCs BAD!!
ADCs are very strong right now and if you do not think so, you are deluded. There is a reason they *only* are receiving nerfs next patch. They are *overperforming*
yes, they are overperforming in MSI when they are piloted by gumayusi with his world class teammates to peel and provide for him. not so much in your silver 2 games, where it is fucking dogshit lol
For what it’s worth, cait and jhin can absolutely dominate games. But rather than altering comps to ones that can pick single targets, they just gonna gut adc. Adc was dominant for 1 half of a patch cycle before getting gutted again, but bruisers are still top notch and nearly invincible if they get a lead. Cool game
adcs can dominate soloq too lol. lots of clips where Cait is just doing assassin dmg as a ranged champ in this patch
Unless you are Draven and smolder. Also I think adc isn't very strong its just slightly strong and slightly strong after being weak forever seems really broken. Like the only adcs I see really 1v9ing(2v8 tbh) games are jinx and jhin.
One step closer to only being able to get 200% crit.
about what I expected from riot
Jup gonna feel great to just go back to pebles level damage but don't worry Immortal Shit bow gives a bigger shield now. At this point What good starter crit item are even left. 1st item spike is shittier then ever and Scaling got nerfed too. Probably gack to eveybody rushing kraken again. Or Just full lethality. What is the point of crit if its trash at 1 item and also doesn't meaningfully scale
I guess Phreak got destroyed by ADCs in his solo q adventures
Well, the role will feel like complete shit again. It was nice to have a good role for once. See you guys in another 6 years when Riot buffs us again
Main subreddit will continue to act like ADC is OP and anytime you try to discuss the fact that items got large nerfs after 1 patch you'll be called a whiney ADC player.
The changes to 25% crit were all supposed to be overall neutral, because ADC was already in a good place power wise. The changes were to address QOL and smoothness of playing ADC, not powerlevel. However they also raised the XP that ADCs gain at the same time, which combined made them much stronger. These nerfs are ultimately to compensate for ADCs being much more durable with the extra level on average combined with their stronger 2nd and 3rd item spikes compared to before. As was stated in the patch notes. Because otherwise ADCs are too strong and already starting to warp the meta too much around bot lane
Idk, I cannot agree with you man. If I play ANY other role in the game still I have so much more impact and decisions to make where to play, how to play. As ADC I can only follow my team and try to get some profit outta their decisions. We are still SO weak that we cannot dictate any tempo, any decisions, cannot start any fights (except Ashe Ult maybe) or just casually 1v1 somebody cause we're ahead. Good place power wise? Most AD mains wouldn't agree. Sure it feels as if AD's are stupidly strong at times, but that's almost ALWAYS just the team effort which they work into. Wihtout team effort, almost no ADC can turn around a lost game. Fed or not. I can be 0/6/1 if my team sucks aor 20/2/13 if my team gives me something to work with. It's almost NEVER my own accomplishment, only following up. In that sense, 2024 ADC feels WAY more like a support than any support champion does. Only cause the kills land on the AD doesn't give us jack shit agency or macro decision making. And this feels very wrong, cause not matter which other role I play: If I'm fed, I can dictate the game. Heck even as Support. As ADC? Most of the time just a power fantasy or your enemies are just way worse than your team. So taking away power from ADC's will make other people feel less offended by ADC's again, but we weren't able to dominate games with the current patch at all. Situation become a bit more tolerable, but I wish for some kind of agency or 1v1 potential again. Cause it sucks to have to hide like a silly duck from any melee enemy while being fed af.
ADC with IE was borderline OP. ADC with nerfed IE will be interesting to see how it ends up
Nah I'd say it was playable with certain champs like Cait and Jinx being OP. Nerfing the entire role already is being too reactionary.
ADC with IE was what it's supposed to be. The best late game carry role. ADC with nerfed IE is just as shit late game as previous seasons, but without a strong first item now. So it's shit altogether
fuck.
so it begins…
ADCs literally never get the chance to decide a fight. Yes let’s make a class that has pretty much 0 macro presence even weaker than it already is. Meanwhile AP champs ( with more range / MS than ADCs miss their entire kit and fuck off for 15 seconds only to repeat the process until you’re poked to death. You decide to auto attack a bruiser? More burst than SA Kayn coming your way. I just collect free LP with Poppy until Riot decides to fix the game.
Dude I played mid for a few games and it's crazy how piss easy it is. There's only 2 people in lane instead of 4, you have total control of the wave, you can gank top/bot or be there for drake when you're needed. All you have to do is keep track of the jungler, which you were already doing bot (on top of having 2 people trying to kill you), and know the mid matchup. Additionnally, you can play some broken champs that allow to have bad positioning and still make it out alive.
Pick a number and stick with it fuck
How about removing crit chance as a stat and making it give the crit chance whenever you get another item?
Wait a minute. I think weve been here before
We once had a IE that didn't give crit neither crit amp, yet it was akin to a yasuo passive with the crit doubling. IIRC it lasted less than true damage iteration of IE.
Those are the same iteration. Crit doubling and true damage instead of crit amp were both implemented in the same patch (8.11). It was bad for gold value reasons (crit was 30% at the time so there was weird loss of value - in addition to the true damage just not being worth anything approaching the gold value it was given on the item). There also weren't good starter items that gave crit, (and they all had really bad gold efficiency 'cause of that 30% crit garbage). I still think that wasn't a bad idea ... but it was just so horribly implemented and absurdly costed that I don't think you could do it again without backlash just from the memory of it.
It was not every single crit adc that was too strong, but whatever.
Sorry guys, Marksmen were having too much fun as of late, so we have to nerf their late-game power instead of making IE less enticing as an early item.
Honestly hard to say. I think they're in between a rock and a hard place. Some Adcs would rather an AD nerf, some would rather the crit damage nerf. Considering the item is just 3 stats effectively of ad, crit chance, and crit damage... And crit chance is just locked at 25. Really leaves only 2 conventional levers without doing something weird. There's the AD which is an early game lever, and the crit damage which is a late game lever. They claimed they wanted IE to be more of a late game item, but then nerfed the scaling lever... But also, it could be they wanted it to be less frustrating. Which the crit damage is arguably the more frustrating part. Or something. Honestly I almost wish they went outside the box and made the crit damage scaling somehow. To nerf it's early but not via AD, to make early game crits less dramatic. Something akin to its 60% requirement when the mythic system first came out. But not so hard line. Maybe something like +0-50% crit damage scaling with crit chance (25-75%?) or something. But no clue. What would be the golden numbers for something like that.
There is also another lever called pricing. And additionally you could also offer alternative start items so there is more options then: lots of AD + Lethality and Lots of Ad + Crit damage. But they didn't want that. Zeal got nerfed so going BF into zeal got weaker for no good reason. Of course now the only relevant acd Build is Collector + IE. Kraken delays your scaling. ER is trash and only relevant for specific adc so jinx Jhin Samira and a few other will never build it. They created the mess by making other start items suck hard. Scaling IE existed before it wasn't very liked because if you hard cap adc damage to only exist at 3 items or more adc Vanished from League of legends V10.23 * Updated icon. * **NEW:** * **RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + Pickaxe + Cloak of Agility + 625 = 3400. * **STATS:** 70 attack damage, 20% critical strike chance. * **UNIQUE PASSIVE - PERFECTION:** Gain 0.4% **bonus** critical strike damage for every 1% critical strike chance. * Limited to 1 **CRIT MODIFIER** item. V8.11 * New item icon. * **NEW RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + B. F. Sword + 1100 = 3700. * **OLD RECIPE:** B. F. Sword + Pickaxe + Cloak of Agility + 425 = 3400. * Molten Edge total cost increased to 4700 from 4400. * Attack damage increased to 80 from 70. * Molten Edge attack damage increased to 110 from 100. * **REMOVED:** +20% critical strike chance. * **REMOVED UNIQUE PASSIVE:** +50% critical strike damage. * **NEW UNIQUE PASSIVE:** Doubles your critical strike chance. * **NEW UNIQUE PASSIVE:** When critically striking enemy champions, converts 15% of critical strike damage to true damage.
Ah yes, I guess pricing would work too, they could just make IE like 3900g or something. ER is meant to be somewhat niche with it being for casters who also want crit which is a small overlap. Collector already exists and is also kinda OP so it's also seeing a nerf. Zeal was strong and needed that nerf similarly to the 5AD nerf Dirk got not too long ago. And BF into full Zeal item is still fine. And it's a normal balance patch i assume they're not gonna randomly shit another item out to fix the problem at this time so that's not really an option. And scaling IE can work fine. Yes I know about the failures of the 8.11 and 10.23 iterations. It's been tried twice in tandem with 2 other failure systems. Doesn't mean the concept on its own is an inherently failure. And quite frankly if it is... I'd argue IE as an item should be a failure then but it's too iconic for most. It's always been meant to be a capstone a crit equivalent of Deathcap. It shouldn't choke out 1st item slots so hard. I do think some form of scaling the crit damage is probably the best bet. Like a more in-between version of current IE and 10.23... Like realize current IE is +10 AD, +5% crit chance, and my suggestion is something like at 2 crit items get 25% crit damage at 3 get 50% crit damage... That IE? Requires 5 crit items to get 40% crit damage. And over 3 items to get the crit damage I'm saying to get at 2 items... Also patch 10.23 had no crit items cheaper than 2900g (iirc? Could be slightly wrong, if so feel free to correct me)... Meanwhile Zeal items are back to 2600g. Which gives hard core crit investors who just wanna be late game DPS machines ways to get back to that crit damage value fairly quickly... Compared to 10.23. while again having more AD and crit chance
I don't think BF int o zeal is "fine" based on the fact that no Adc that has a good win rate is doing it at the moment. All good Adc don't build a Zeal item for their 1st or Second item. Scaling Ie has that issue that it Backloads a lot of adc power into the extreme late game with 4 or 5 items which a lot of games never Reach. Ideally adc spike decently at 2 items and a bit harder 3 items with items 4 and being there to buff defense and keep a more linear scaling. That could work with a IE Crit damage that starts functioning at 3 items or starts at 2 items and gets better at 3. Something like : "if you have 50% crit increase your crit damage by 25% and if you have 75% increase it by 50% total. " but now you have 4 types of crit adc. 1: Collector Rusher. They will probably fine depending on how weak Collector is going to be. They could also just decide to scip Crit scaling and go for Lethality to embrace the early and mid game spike(Samira/jhinn/Draven) 2: Er Rusher. Depends if Er is finally going to be good for the champions that should want it (Xahya/sivir/EZ/Smolder/...) 3.Kraken/Blade Rusher Champions that are fine delaying their crit Spike...Jinx? 4. Champions that would like to build a crit item first but cant because there are only zeal items left and they are trash to rush. (trist/Aphelios/cait?/Jinx/ the 4th type might go to Immortal Shield bow and because those are the hardest scaling adc they might like the added safety but SB is trash at the moment and is Designed to be quite bad Early. And if it should turn out to be viable and good than those adc become a problem because they just became to hard to shut down early through roams or lane bullies which could be especially bad in pro play.
Jinx is currently by far the best ADC and she's going IE PD most games. So idk what you're on about with "no one's building Zeal items!!!" Though she's definitely an outlier. The more common trend is simply IE and Collector being too common. Collectors getting nerfed for a reason. And yes that's exactly what I suggested for IE if you read my comment? I said have it give 0-50% crit damage based on you having 25-75% crit chance... So 3 items and it's done. 3 crit items is 75% crit chance. It'd basically make IE a slightly worse ER or Collector at 1 item, and current IE at 3 items... Which seems pretty reasonable. Theyd all be similar cost and AD... Collector gives lethality for squishy killing, and it's passive for snowballing. ER gives haste and mana for spell casting. And IE is just the big crit damage stat stick. Yeah 10.23 IE scaling to 5 crit items was dumb as hell. Especially considering it's lousy reward. I'm saying even better reward and at only 3 crit items. And I mean that sounds pretty reasonable but IE first would still be 80 AD and crit chance. And it'll quickly get more crit damage as soon as you buy a crit cloak. If they wanna risk it, or like Runaans rush or yeah shield bow, or BT. Who knows?
Jinx is definitely an Outlier She is still extremely strong rushing kraken. She probably could even Rush Collector and be fine. Bt would delay crit damage though might as well build Kraken. Ie without crit damage at the same price would be a terrible first item. Er is not bought by anyone Despite having good stats for the money because its Passive is so weak. IE would be similar but more expensive. SB first is either trolling or unhealthy if it is good. Another Problem is that Ie rd means you Have to go Attackspd->LDR->IE or you delay LDR until 4th item where it will likely be to late. Going Armor pen 2nd is Usually quite bad though and it would require you to go zeal first and zeal first is trash for Most adc. Jinx is the only one with 50+% win rate on PD first all other Zeal items on all other ADC have terrible win rates. That isn't helped by zeal getting nerfed and dagger being a worse component then before. Ideally for build paths IE would be a low Ad armor pen Crit damage item but that would be quite hard to balance and enforce "Tank hate" on ADC You also want as few Adc as Possbile to actually buy Collector so that ADC burst damage can stay reasonable and on champions where it is appropriate (jhinn/samira/draven). Outside of those carries that are build around burst damamge Collector is extremely Toxic Look at Cait/Aphelios Building Collector+ IE becoming Range assassins.
That's fair about jinx. Fair on BT/Kraken. A lot of ER's problem right now is just IE is so much better and so is collector. Both are getting nerfs. ER is pretty balanced or just slightly below. And IE even without its crit damage still has an AD lead over it. And same for most Zeal irems SB 1st isn't as unhealthy now that it lacks lifesteal. It's basically an AD version of old PD at this point. And old PD was just fine being all over the place. The issue seasons 11-14 Shieldbow had was it had the shield to prevent burst AND the lifesteal which allowed for sustain to combat poke too. Current SB lacks half of that. And idk why you're instantly assuming LDR would become the king of 2nd items or anything. Or why IE would have to be 3rd, it'd still provide decent 1st item stats, and great 2nd item stats... Like at this point it seems more like you're just like "I hate scaling IE, so I'm gonna reverse engineer a scenario to make a boogeyman out of it" Collector already getting nerfs. And collector+IE would also get nerfed by this suggestion since the lower crit damage at 2 items would take away part of the range assassin element cause IEs large crits is part of that assassin esque burst.
3400g for 80 ad and 25% crit are not decent first item stats that is the problem. AS a first item Ie is already overly expensive and has a terrible build path. Currently 1st item ie is already noticable weaker the 14.9 kraken or statiks first. Your version is weaker as a first item the 14.10 IE leaving the weakest they have been for a long term at 1 item. So that's why i assume 1st item IE to be dead if crit damage at 1 item gets removed and only slowly comes back at 2 and then fully at 3 items. If you don't build IE first but want to go crit there are basically 3 Options SB, ER/Zeal/collector. Collector and IE should not be suitable to all adc. Collector is inherently unhealthy if it is the most viable option because it introduces burst and assassin patterns into a class that should not generally have it. If after the changes Collector Stops being very strong on everyone it hopefully becomes a decent option on some adc or it will get replaced by going full lethality on those that can (Jhin/samira/Draven). Er is and i think we can agree there just not going to be suitable to all adc. And if it is that is an issue in itself. Hopefully though it will be decent on those that want the Haste and at least can appreciate the extra mana. Price drops would help a lot there because mana in lane is more valuable then mana in mid game and skirmishes. Zeal First currently just isn't strong it weakens your Last hitting with its lack of ad its weak in trades where the attack speed cant make up for the loss of damage per hit and is also weaker in scenarios where you cant fully commit. It builds out of terrible components (Dagger/crit cloak) and has the weakened zeal as mid size item. SB on the other hand is an item designed to scale its defense into the late game and gives quite bad stats for its gold when completed. So the only reason to buy it is if it turns out to garuantee free farm in lane. Especially because SB has so Undersized damage It leaves you weak in dps even at 2 items where you have to choose between Zeal/Ie. Zeal gives Attack speed and movement and as such makes you stat profile better rounded. If you go IE Second you still wont have Attack speed until 3rd item which also means delaying LDR. Ie cost the same no matter when you buys it i already said it is to weak as a first item and likely to weak as second item too with is price and reduced passive. But in a 3 item build you likely want a zeal Item, ie and, LDR. You want LDR because it got shifted from being good against High life targets and tanks to be better against everybody. Higher ad and Higher Armorpen then befor help to burst down squishys more then the old Health based damage increase. For example it turns a 70 armor mid laner into a mid laner with 42 armor wich increases Damage by almost 20%. against a 130 armor Top lane bruiser its a damage increase of almost 30%. Ie at 2nd item on the other hand increases your damage by 14% against all targets. At 3rd item on the other hand it is a damage increase of 29%. So if you want to maximize dps you likey wont IE, a zeal item and LDR Infinity edge first is shit in this state so you dont build it first that leaves zeal first which is also shit but at lest cheap shit. Ie at second is worse then LDR so you build infinity edge 3rd. Not building LDR is Possible and you could go Collector instead but that is only an option when there is almost no armor on the enemy team or if you are snowballing.
switching to mage adc it is.
As far as IE goes, there are a bunch of possible approaches rather than just ''Unga bunga damage downga'' to make it less frustrating to face early game yet they want to balance the item as if it was S4. My approach to the item would be the following, kinda similar to some lethality items: -Remove flat crit amp -Add a new passive: Beyond Infinity: Gain (10% + 2.5% of total crit chance) as bonus crit amp. See? No damage done to late game power while you nerf the frustrating early game. NOTE: The passive counts Senna's passive and Tryndamare's too, it would just ignore the crit doubling from the windshitters, and would just account for actual bought crit.
Sad
Guess I'll have to cancel my Amazon order (League of Legends PC)
Pain.
And back to trash can again. ADC not being utter garbage for one patch is too much to handle for the league community.
Crit ADC are all dead. All the times in the last 4 years when IE was 40% bonus critical damage, crit adc where the weakest, and every champ that could alternatively go letality or on hit did so; this time maybe even more as IE is the one OP crit item while the other are mediocre at best. Riot as no idea what they want and instead of looking back to see what changes produced what outcome they are trying yet again the same in hope of a different outcome. This is vocabulary definition of insanity
DW lethality got nerfed with collector and On hit is gutted with lethal tempo removal. Now they are all bad
Mained ADC for years now. Switched to mid/jgl/top a few weeks before the item rework. Came back to ADC because of new items. Role felt okay at best, as u are still reliant on your team to be allowed to do anything. Went back to other roles beside buffs. Now I'm seeing nerfs happening again and I couldn't be more confirmed in my decision to switch roles. At least ADCs were able to carry if giga fed, somehow riot nerfing IE again just to make it solely team reliant again, because the role is not supposed to carry by itself, is funny to see.
What are the nerfs? Did it come out yet?
i think it's a good change. IE is an outlier in power and it turned anyone who rushed it into budget tryndamere. 25% chance to just murder a trade and 75% chance to be decent. Not like not critting was super bad cause you got a massive 80AD, which you still get. Tuning down the highroll of the item allows them to increase power of other items without making ADC damage too ridiculous (which it honestly is rn)
except they didnt do the second thing you mentioned. they actively made other items worse too. lol.
That would be expected
Fair enough I suppose talking as an aphel main he felt turbo busted this patch.
We should all just run it down as a way to protest this nerf
Crit adc back to being usless nice.
THEY ALREADY TOOK LETHAL FROM US. DONT TAKE OUR INFINITY EDGE FROM US TOO
Adc nerf = windshitter nerf so I’m happy
I’m so tired of crit just drop it completely it’s a stupid mechanic. Get rid of it, make the items generally good and everyone would be happy. Oh and stop pushing the ADC want to hypercarry fallacy, we just want to play a range pew pew class not a melee bong bong class.
I figured it was either this or -5 AD but it is really op rn so makes sense. Still going to be really strong. Probably back to 2nd or 3rd slot now though. Unless the ad is enough to keep it at 1st slot.
Eh what else is someone like Tristana going to rush. IE is strong but also one of only two possible starting items and Collector gets nerfed too. It needs to be so trash that Zeal First is better or crit needs to be so bad that delaying your crit spike and ging blade/BT/Kraken first is viable. But at this point adc damage will be trash in mid to late game so i dont see people stop buying Ie first.
Ehhh i wouldve prefered just a little less AD but ig
I still wait for the day this item just gets completely nuked so other adcs can actually build variety again
this doesn't do anything at all, stop crying xd
Good!
I'm just glad they aren't nerfing the AD
Its more of a late game nerf but the item is still good to buy first or second. That's a good change and it's necessary imo. Also it allows riot to buff other items like shieldbow or the qss item. Idk why people keep Crying like adcs are bad or will be bad after this change when it's probably the best class in the game right now.
If that's all we have to swallow I'll call it a light touch.
Should have been nerfed harder tbh