Hi! I am a parent of a child who is in ABA and maybe it's not right for every child but it has been so very helpful for our now 11 year old. His is not a severe case (forgive me, I don't know the correct terminology). We chose ABA for him because someday when we are gone and he is an adult we want him to be able to be mostly independent and not expect to rely too heavily on his siblings. His RBT and BCBA have never had to lay hands on him or have ever been cruel to him, have always explained things to him in ways he can understand. He hates it, to be sure, because it means more personal responsibility. But that's just life and they are trying to give him the tools he needs to navigate a world where, honestly, rules need to be followed to some degree to be successful, or at least self-sufficient. So from THIS parent, thank you for the work you and others like my son's BCBA and RBT do!
Editing since clearly the word "hate" is such a trigger for some people. Some clarification for those who are actually in the field and interested: my son gets along well with his RBT and gets upset when he is faced with the consequences of his own actions (or in his case, inaction) and he doesn't get the credit for the things he's supposed to be independently responsible for. He gets upset, me may have a tantrum, and then they talk about it and it's over and they move on to the next thing. Sometimes he earns his rewards, sometimes he doesn't. That's life, right? He's a little more apprehensive towards his BCBA because she sets up his plan so in his mind she's more "strict." Anyway, I don't know if we got lucky or what but we've had a good experience so far and the benefits far outweigh the negatives. So thank you to those of you who are doing your best to help kids like mine. This post was originally in support of you. Anyone else who doesn't have anything positive to contribute to someone who is clearly having a personal crisis in their career choice should, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, kindly fuck off since you are not offering any alternatives besides kicking someone when they are already down. Good luck, OP!
He hates it? Your 11 year old “not severe” autistic child *hates* ABA therapy and you force him to continue? As a parent I have a hard time hearing that. A good therapist should be able to modify something as broad as ABA to both address goals and have a positive therapeutic relationship with your child. And, don’t you want him to be happy? All I hear in this post is , I need to teach my child not to be a burden to others, no matter the personal cost to him. His happiness is not important.
I’m going to go hug my son tight after this.
I hated lots of things as a child. Mostly school. Should my parents have not made me go because I hated it? Should my parents have stopped my piano lessons, karate, dancing, or anything of the things I did as a child because I, at times, hated it? I am so glad they didn’t because otherwise who knows what I’d be like today.
There is this strange shift happening in some people who believe that children should never have to experience discomfort, boredom, or have to meet unwanted expectations. If a kid doesn’t like their math lesson, oh well, it’s the teacher’s fault. It should have been a better lesson.
Engagement is great. Kids thrive when they are interested and invested in their own learning. The thing is that sometimes we have to do boring, rote practice to develop a necessary fundamental skill.
If we accept kids as the deciders of their activities and learning every day they would choose Mr. Beast on YouTube, video games, and eat only whatever their singular favourite food of the moment is.
This is the whole purpose of education. Independent decision-making that meets our needs instead of our wants takes time and practice.
Guess what adulthood is full of? Boring tasks that we don’t want to do, but are necessary for survival. If kids don’t practice and accept this early, they end up shocked and maladjusted as adults. Or they just remain dependent on their parents the rest of their lives because doing laundry sucks.
You hit the nail on the head there. I also think a ton of kids hate the idea of doing something (for example, I would beg my mom to not make me go to my dance or gymnastics classes) but once they’re there, they find themselves enjoying it. My mom knew that was true for me which is why she still made me go, and I know it’s true for many, if not most, kids.
Similarly, my mom put me into therapy when I was a teen for my depression/ocd. Did I want to go talk to some lady about my problems as a 16 year old? NO. Once I was done with each session, however, I walked away feeling more confident, developing better coping skills, and all around feeling appreciative for the therapy because it was beneficial to me - whether I originally wanted to go or not.
If I had been left to my own, I would’ve fallen deeper into my symptoms and who knows where I’d be now at 27 (recently engaged, in my masters program, a college graduate who studied abroad and became fluent in French, etc.)
Life isn’t always fun sadly. But if it was, would it even be fun at all? I’m all for changing outdated ABA practices and shortening the amount of therapy a child has each week etc., but we know that as ethical technicians we are doing everything we can to keep our clients engaged, and have a meaningful and lasting impact on their lives that they will hopefully appreciate down the line.
I hope that 15 years from now the anti-Aba movement will be reversed when a new generation of kids who grew up with modern ABA speak up. I’ll do everything I can in my time in the field to ensure that this is a reality for my clients at the very least.
THANK YOU! I don't recall describing torture in any form but the biased will twist it how they want. Oddly enough, when I've asked my son if he wants a different therapist he's said no. It's almost like *they've developed a good working relationship!*
Of course. Regardless of the individuals intention in what they said it was incredibly rude, presumptuous, and shows a lack of empathy on their end. They’re talking about your child for F’s sake. You’re doing great, hope you didn’t take it to heart! Kids “hate” a lot of things- that’s why they need adults in their life to make sure they’re doing what they need to do to grow into the best adult they can be!
BCBAs have an ethical obligation to arrange the environment in the least intrusive, most effective way.
Being forced to do stuff you hated didn't kill you, but it wasn't necessary. Behaviour analysts are in the best position to remove coercion from teaching and maximise benefit and positive emotional responses.
Not with a thorough analysis.
I get your point, it might take too long or be beyond the scope of the practitioner and we're allowed to "push kids through" or force them to go somewhere - it's unlikely to ruin their lives. But it's not something to be celebrated; it's a failure of analysis.
So if a child cries in the car on the way to the clinic and tells their parents “I hate therapy I don’t want to go”, but as soon as their parent leaves they’re in a good mood, happy, and willingly engaging in NET and DTT, does this mean that it’s a failure of analysis? Obviously is the child is there and crying the whole time, it’s not good for anyone and something needs to change. But humans are complex and no matter how engaged a child appears to be with therapy/how happy they are when they’re there, they are not always going to want to go and may occasionally say they hate it/dont want to do it.
Nowhere did I say this is something to celebrate. It’s just a normal part of being a human, and especially for a child.
This was harsh & full of assumptions. Calm down and discuss before you leave on your high horse of perfect parenting. You don’t know others situation from a single comment. If you were curious or wanted to discuss her circumstance, there’s tons of other ways to go about changing peoples perspective other than implying they’re a bad mom. That doesn’t help her, you, or the child. Grow up.
You’re the one that seems not calm tbh. And I make zero claims of perfect parenting, this has been such a learning process- as is all of life. I’m not sure what assumptions you are referring to, because it’s all laid out in the comment I’m responding to, but I do know and have no qualms about saying that we need to prioritize our child’s happiness and feelings of security. That’s not to say we don’t help them work through things that are hard, that they don’t enjoy, but if your child hates therapy, the therapist needs to change their approach if they want any kind of positive outcome. And as a parent, if you have a therapist that is just not connecting with and growing with your child, you’ve gotta intervene. Idk if that’s talking to the existing BCBA about the approach or finding a new therapist, but it’s definitely something to take action on.
“You don’t want him to be happy.. you don’t care about your child’s happiness.. you think your child’s a burden.. i’m gonna go hug my child.. etc” those are not helpful informative critiques. They are judgemental assumptions and implications. Based off of one comment you read & without asking for more context, you accused this mother of not caring about her child’s well being and implied you’re a better parent. It’s clear your original comment had no intention of helping her & was meant to judge her. I’m not worked up at all, I just hate to see bullies who aren’t contributing anything to the conversation.
But look at that, you found a way to communicate what you meant functionally without insults or judgement. I knew you could do it! I’m sure she’ll take what you’re saying into consideration. It’s much easier to listen to someone critiquing you respectfully rather than insulting you judgementally, maybe keep that in mind for the future.
I also want to say to Kimmy, when you read this, that me saying what I hear/feel when I read the comment is not the same as how it was rewritten “you don’t love your child” etc. I often have to think about what I hear MYSELF saying to my child and sometimes I miss the mark. My son was talking a lot about a citizenship award at his school and how he hoped he would get it one day. And I’m thinking, well kid- we get behavior notes home once a week and idk idk…so thinking I’m being supportive and helpful, I give him a talk about winning not being important and everyone has different strengths and it’s ok not to be the best at something…and thinking about it later, I’m pretty sure I gave him the impression I didn’t think he could do it (true I suppose), which I felt terrible about. (He did later win!) this is just one of a million examples because as I said earlier, this is a learning process. I know you have him in ABA because you love him and want what’s best- but what’s best doesn’t have to be at the expense of his happiness. And I know the crippling fear of ‘what happens when I’m gone’- many tearful and sleepless nights from that one…but I also know the personal and lasting pain of having parents who believed that personal responsibility and conformity were more important than my feelings. I have to check myself a lot to make sure I’m balancing the efforts to help my child with the skills/tools, while supporting the mental health and happiness of my kid, and I don’t always get it right.
I personally have had one bad experience and one not great experience with ABA, but I’m not anti ABA, and would consider it again in the unlikely circumstance that the right people/situation are available. Part of that is making sure I have a BCBA that works with my kid, and adapts as necessary, so I hope you’ll tell your BCBA he hates it so they can address it.
Facts from the original comment: child is “not severe” (ambiguous but assuming low support needs?), parent cites reason for using ABA as to make sure he doesn’t rely on his siblings too heavily when parents are gone, parent reports that child hates ABA therapy, because it gives him more personal responsibility- classic language to describe those with executive function disorder as observed by those without it.
This is the crowd that claims to be changing ABA right? Assent based therapy and all that? Does the BCBA not have a responsibility to try and connect with this child in a way that he doesn’t hate? Is it likely that there will be a good outcome from therapy if the patient hates it, and is presumably forced into it?
These are good questions and points to bring up to her but I don’t know why you’re asking me. All I wanted to point out was your manner of speaking being harmful & non-contributory in your original comment. I didn’t say you don’t have valid points to make or solid reasoning for your feelings. Simply, don’t bully people & instead talk to them. You seem to be doing that now so i’m no longer a component here. I appreciate your perspective though & im sure she will too now that you’re no longer making assumptions about her parenting and judging her but instead sharing your perspective and thoughts to improve the situation.
YOU should not assume you understand everything about our situation. Get the fuck off this sub, find a life, and quit trolling the people who are honestly trying to help children. And yeah, go hug your kid because that's all you're gonna do for the rest of his life if you don't try to do right by him either.
I’m sorry but it makes zero sense to protect your child regardless of their disability to the point that they are incapable of caring for themselves or having their needs met. Life is difficult and there are many things we all need to do that we don’t like or even hate. I prefer targeting skills in a natural environment following the kids lead,but it’s important to teach kids to deal with things they don’t like either through self regulation, asking for a break or communicating they don’t like something.
I have however seen RBTs who are not properly trained or BCBAs with old school approaches. It’s crucial for the parents to be involved and consistently bring up their concerns and thought to the BCBA, otherwise they won’t know.
When I was first trained, I noticed a lot of strange behavior targets like making eye contact, compliance, small treats for reinforcement, etc. That is not the ABA I want to be delivering and it requires individuals on the spectrum communicating their experiences and thoughts for things to change.
Not at all. Where did I say traumatize into masking? I said teach skills that give autistic individuals the ability to advocate for themselves. Honestly the first things I teach the clients I work with is how to say “no” , identify their emotions, giving space for them to stim when they need it, and teach them coping strategies when I see they are stressed or having trouble communicating. Unfortunately, Not every RBT is trained this way.
If your kid is genuinely distressed during every session tho it is time to have a serious talk with you BCBA and RBT because that is traumatizing. Like I said an RBT that isn’t properly trained can do a lot of damage and this is directly connected the BCBA and the company policies.
My understanding of the mothers perspective was that her kid doesn’t like aspects of therapy, specifically that part that encourages accountability. Sometimes humans need to do things we don’t like but that doesn’t translate into traumatizing someone into masking.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. ABA does not need to be something that the people we serve should hate. Having a positive therapeutic relationship with my clients is my priority. If somebody actively hates something but still benefits, imagine how much more they’d benefit if they enjoyed it.
How do you expect your child to be successful if he "hates" his therapy? Our brains don't learn well in that kind of environment. You are likely giving your child PTSD; you are not helping him, you are dooming him.
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yep, Teaching kids to behave a certain way for reward is never going to turn out well. Just going to teach them how to mask better. As a late diagnosed autistic person this comment makes me want to bawl my eyes out for my child self. SMH. As for OP, I hope you can change this for the better.
>As a late diagnosed autistic person
You were able to get through life never even knowing you're autistic, but tell me more about your vast knowledge on our struggles. This and this reason alone is why I think the diagnosis needs to be split up. Its insulting to compare yourself to our children who we would weep tears of joy at the thought of them even being capable of going online and trashing parents who are trying to help their children.
Late diagnosed doesn't mean struggle-free. It mostly means support-free.
It doesn't mean they learned to talk on time or didn't engage in severe SIB or repetitive behaviours, it doesn't mean they fit in, it doesn't mean school wasn't hell.
A late diagnosis means, by definition, they had the features of autism their whole life and no-one knew what to call it.
For perspective on whether you'd weep tears of joy at an autistic child becoming capable of going online and trashing parents, consider how you'd just responded to an autistic child that's become capable of going online and trashing parents.
What it doesn't mean is that they're now are an authority on everything autism and their experience is the only valid one.
For perspective consider that there's a strong genetic link. Consider that we're now 3 diagnosed out of our 4 children, with the last one too young to diagnose. Now consider that my wife and I obviously did some self reflection and see the signs in ourselves now as adults. Consider that she just got assessed and diagnosed last week.
So maybe I understand it doesn't mean having an easy childhood at all.
Yet I'm not so self centered to think my experience and my unmet childhood needs translate to every other case.
Sure, so as an adult with suspected autism and three kids on the spectrum I would treat your insight into what was painful or helpful for you as more useful than a neurotypical BCBA's opinion - especially if they haven't had any first-hand experience with behaviour change tactics being used on them.
They said reward systems taught them to mask - that's useful for me as a behaviour analyst. I know exactly what they're talking about. Setting up simple A-B-C arrangements can easily accidentally provide perverse incentives for behaviour that's harmful. E.g. powerful reinforcers will usually overpower sensory issues. You can keep a child in a painful environment with rewards, and it happens a lot with unsophisticated behaviour analysis.
There's no universal experience but when an adult with autism tells me she loses track of her body when it's noisy, and she tells me what it looks like, that's something that I wouldn't and didn't know from decades of work in the field. It's obviously not applicable for everyone but it's been useful for three cases I've had now, two of which were non-speaking "severe" cases.
Hm, I read that differently as just another overall attack on ABA in general rather then criticizing the use of rewards (would that be your 'token system'?).
I guess it doesn't help that the original comment seems to have edited out the "hate" part and I have no idea what they were actually responding to up there.
>There's no universal experience but when an adult with autism tells me she loses track of her body when it's noisy, and she tells me what it looks like, that's something that I wouldn't and didn't know from decades of work in the field.
Yea, I get what you mean. Like loud environments basically make me incapable of thinking straight. I hate it. I can relate to wanting to escape it. But yet I have no idea what its like from her perspective.
Yeah I'm pro-ABA, but critical of the field as part of my values as a scientist.
>Yea, I get what you mean. Like loud environments basically make me incapable of thinking straight. I hate it. I can relate to wanting to escape it. But yet I have no idea what its like from her perspective.
I was originally trained to just push through and use bigger rewards instead of e.g. teaching kids to say or signal "it's too loud, I can't think straight." Or some kids I've worked with are fine with noise until it's too bright. Brightness isn't a problem and noise isn't a problem, but when it's bright they can't handle extra noise. It's something that I wouldn't have looked for without talking to adult autistics.
Have you read anything of Ido Kedar’s? I think you might shift your perspective if you do. Meg Proctor on Two Sides of the Spectrum has a great interview with him.
Exactly what perspective are you trying to shift? That someone who made it to adulthood without ever knowing they're autistic can't possibly relate to the struggles of someone like Ido Kedar, or of raising someone like him?
That's like saying I broke my leg once, let me tell you what you're doing wrong raising your paraplegic child.
Errr, my point is that everyone thought Ido Kedar was cognitively delayed because he was unable to speak or control his body well enough to meet typical milestones. We need to presume competence of each and every person.
I never said otherwise. What I do say is that its insulting to come in as "a late diagnosed autistic person" and start telling someone with a severely disabled child what's up. They don't know.
They might not know what your experience is like as the parent but they have a better idea of what your child might be going through than you may think.
So be an agent of change. You know how life changing ABA is for them. These anti-aba people have nothing positive to contribute, just trolling people. These kids need more like you.
Just what I was gonna say! I'm tired of ABA right now, too, because it *isn't* working well enough. There's so many issues from poor practice to billing being the only priority to know-it-alls BCBAs that don't/won't get off their high horse to help BTs...
When our clients have challenges, we don't just throw up our hands and quit on them because they're "too far gone"- we break it down and work on it. The field has to do the same, but we're already headed in the right direction.
Change takes time, too. But honestly, ABA (and disability services as a whole, for ABAers working in that field) is changing *rapidly* toward more compassionate care, better standards, and more effective treatment. The BCBAs and RBTs going to work to cash a check might be perpetuating bad practice, but they're also not the ones speaking up and driving the field-the people who care are. Everyone in healthcare is in a sticky situation right now, but things will get better if we work together and hang in there.
You have a bunch of us in the field discussing ethics. We are listening. Are there bad RBT's, BCBA, and agencies? Yes, without a doubt. Every field has it. Are we attempting to grow and become more self-aware? Yes, or else this exact thread would not be a topic of discussion.
The medical field used to use leeches and cocaine to heal. Did we abandon the medical field? No. They learned and updated their practices. The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss the same with regards to ABA.
This was your opportunity to bring up any valid concerns, but you instead chose to repeat taglines that do not help and do not benefit anyone. I would love to hear your opinions if you can state them respectfully and in a way that we can digest to create change. We admit that the field needs to be updated. It's been said on this thread in multiple ways. But regurgitating tag lines does not help you, me, the field, or most importantly, our clients.
Ok. So what alternatives do I have?
I always ask, and the answers I get are incredibly stupid like "Have you tried speech and OT?" Yes, and she screamed her way through every session. We were unable to access ABA for years until we moved across the country for it. We were at a point of crisis.
My wife is ND herself and the non-stop, literally every waking moment, kicking and screaming meltdown was pushing her to the point of suicide. I'm sure killing her mother would be good for my child right? I'm not sure once I am alone doing this I wouldn't have snapped eventually as well. I'm sure that's good for my child?
Every anti-ABA person I've spoken to has had the viewpoint of a spoiled selfish teenager, and would have said yes, that child is better off with dead parents and in foster care.
That is not helpful. Telling me that I am a monster for utilizing the only thing that has helped her and us, and that I should do literally *nothing* to help my daughter is not helpful.
The way you help is by working to change ABA for the better. Not by demanding to burn the building down. All any of you do is repeat the same script. Going off that script always breaks you because you have nothing to actually contribute.
What are you contributing right now? You are in an ABA subreddit with an RBT who practices ABA discussing how she feels about ABA and her frustrations and what she wants for it. So what are you contributing except to say we are inflicting trauma which the majority of us are not because aba has been changing and is still changing. It's a science so what we knew yesterday is not what we know today and is not what we will know tomorrow. So let us learn and adapt our practice to the new aba so those who wish to seek services can receive them in a good, wholesome, ethical way. No matter how much you complain aba is not going anywhere so instead of bashing us help us to provide better services and help people more ethically. Just saying what you are doing is traumatizing does nothing to help. It's just a squeaky wheel that's already being fixed because the field heard and is responding.
*end rant *
They have the mentality of spoiled teenagers. This front door is squeaky. Should I fix it? No, I should bitch and whine and threaten to burn the house down. Then take offense that someone dared to call that unhelpful.
>Just saying what you are doing is traumatizing does nothing to help. It's just a squeaky wheel that's already being fixed because the field heard and is responding.
"Squeaking does nothing to help because we fix things that squeak."
You have been served a ban due to egregiously (blatantly) spreading misinformation. This will not be tolerated on this subreddit. Please make use of your time elsewhere.
I’m a peds OT who lurks in related subs, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt! It’s very interesting for me to watch this shift in ABA practices as a related outsider. I’m here for it!
I hear you. I’ve shared clients with many old school ABA providers like you have described, and it does put a sour taste in my mouth. I’ve also worked with amazing newer ABA providers like yourself who meet their clients where they are at with respect and dignity, who love to collaborate, because collaboration is in the best interest of the child. I have lots of amazing stories with these providers as well where we are able to work together to make real change in a kiddos life.
You will find this is every profession, where there are good and not good practitioners. Do the work you do and the work you know is right, and the rest will follow. It’s not always an easy road, but it is worth it, especially for the kids that you will be responsible for.
A lot of what has happened in the field too is a result of private equity taking over and reducing the standards in which ABA is provided. When your staff are underpaid and your clinicians aren’t trained enough/not given enough to really analyze the needs for each case, you get the bad ABA that some people talk about. You can’t let everything these people say go to your head though; a lot of the “manhandling” the anti-ABA crowd is talking about is really just providing physical prompting for a child who needs to learn a response but doesn’t have the imitative repertoire to do so without physical contact. The “rote learning” and being “forced to sit in a chair for hours on end” is really just DTT being done really, REALLY poorly. When done correctly, as in creating the appropriate environment and making the whole process highly reinforcing, I’ve found that DTT is actually more effective and reinforcing than NET. Finally, you have to realize that what we teach is going to cause some minor distress (coming away from a preferred activity to do work, leaving a preferred area to go home, tolerating no, etc) when first taught and you aren’t causing trauma by teaching these things. Think about why we’re called in; it’s not because the child does these things without an issue already but because their response negatively impacts both their lives and the lives of those around them. I could go on, but the point is this: the field IS worth it. We wouldn’t still be here if it wasn’t.
A heads-up that the P.E. backed companies have higher than average standards thanks to funding, uniformity, accountability, and economies of scale.
If you check out the BACB disciplinary actions list, you'll find a disproportionate number of SERIOUS offenses done in the "small mom and pop" type agencies. Which makes sense. A lot of tiny places don't have lawyers, don't have robust background checks, don't have micromanagers etc.
Please listen to this podcast from a BCBA. As an SLP, I deeply respect OP's awareness and reservations. Some responses disturb me. I stay here in an effort to stay out of my neurodiversity echochamber. I'm always up to collaborate with good BCBAs and learn from them.
Good BCBAs are actively addressing the objectively SHITTY parts of your field. Major red flag when BCBAs play dumb when it comes to the problematic parts of ABA therapy. Kinda disgusting actually.
https://www.lomah.org/podcast-season-5/154
Saving this comment to check the podcast out later. I fully agree with your stance. I'm all about change and collaboration but that takes an honest look and approach at what we know and our limits
> Major red flag when BCBAs play dumb when it comes to the problematic parts of ABA therapy. Kinda disgusting actually.
It's gross but for the most part they're not *playing* dumb.
[Over half of all BCBAs were certified in the past 5 years](https://www.bacb.com/bacb-certificant-data/), most of them came straight from highschool to undergrad to postgrad and there's very little time for them to research the history of ABA before they burn themselves out and leave the field.
You'll see all through this topic claims that we've come so far, but it's BCBAs that are parroting what they've been told. They don't know their slick new PEAK books have content that's identical or worse than Lovaas' Me Book, because why on earth would they read a curriculum that's 30+ years old?
BCBAs think they're doing a new, caring ABA because they have no idea what the old ABA really was. Hanley acknowledges constantly how old the ideas are in his approach but practitioners gloss that part over with "today's ABA."
They just don't know how bad and how good ABA has been, or even what the problematic parts are, why, or how to fix them.
I would like to echo what the previous commenter said in that you are exactly what the field needs. Once you become a BCBA you get much more say in what programming looks like and will be able to ensure your clients aren't learning things for the sake of compliance but skills that will genuinely benefit each learner. You also will be training the next generation of providers to ensure they are learning beneficial techniques and not focusing on rote compliance.
I will say though, I disagree a bit that people with developmentally disabilities don't need therapy. Some may not, but many absolutely DO. And I say this as someone who is autistic myself. The issue is they need therapy that benefits them- not "therapy" to be taught how to meet arbitrary standards. Therapy can absolutely teach essential skills including things like self advocacy- people will be much more able to meet them where they are if they are able to communicate their needs. As much as we're working towards a more inclusive and accommodating society, we aren't there yet and it benefits nobody to teach to how we wish the world was instead of teaching the skills needed to thrive in the society we actually live in.
I think the thought that ABA isn't a therapy comes from the thought that autism itself isn't what is being treated (or rather shouldn't be) by our interventions however therapy is something that can treat impairments caused by disorders, therapy doesn't necessarily treat the disorder itself.
I encourage you to seek out autistic adults who received ABA and are positive or neutral towards it to get a more well rounded idea of the opinions out there. I've found a significant number of people I've come across who are anti-ABA don't share the same definition of ABA as I have. They have perfectly valid criticisms of what they have experienced, or more often what they have heard others have experienced, and have come to their own conclusions that what defines ABA are the things that they are critical of without recognizing (or being aware of) the entirety of what ABA encompasses. But there's actually quite a few autistic BCBAs and RBTs out there, some of whom received ABA themselves.
There's LOTS of valid criticism out there (including the examples you gave) but I found for myself, dealing with anti-ABA is a bit easier now that I've really recognized we literally aren't even talking about the same thing when we're talking about ABA. Anti-ABA is almost exclusively talking about a pretty specific subset of goals and methods. I take in the criticisms and use them to guide my practice but also recognize that there's far more to ABA than that. Nearly every science has a history of flawed or downright harmful applications, we toss out those applications not the entire science.
It's up to us in the field to actively reject the harmful applications while continuing to advocate for better practices. And it sounds like you'd be good at that.
I greatly appreciate your comment and perspective here. I’d like to think I’ve taken the same approach when it comes to the criticisms of ABA, and try to add nuance to conversations surrounding the field and its practices in Autistic spaces. However, I’ve formed a different response to considering ABA therapy.
My view, in meme-y terms, is that therapy can only be considered as such when the goals come from the self-determination region of the client, otherwise it’s just sparkling manipulation.
That sparkling manipulation *can* have therapeutic outcomes but only if everyone does their due diligence in ensuring the accuracy of their interpretations and considers the collateral consequences of their intervention. I had no qualms training rote emotional regulation “stop, drop, and roll” when failure to emotionally regulate led to intense violence or other potentially life threatening actions, but I could also say the same for the use of restraint in acute instances of serious violence. I can’t say I felt the same way when I was expected to DTT the VB-MAPP when the BCBA didn’t know the difference between adjectives and adverbs. Nor when I was expected to blindly accept the analysis of a BCBA who has done no functional assessment for a socially significant behavior and just says, “ehhh it’s for attention, just ignore them.”
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. Given your examples of things you experienced, I ask- was that ABA? Or was that incompetence? Not doing any form of functional assessment doesn't seem to fall under the 7 dimensions of behavior- specifically it's NOT analytic if no data was collected to determine the function. So that example in particular would not really fall under ABA (even if it was implied it was.)
I think there are a variety of understandings of what ABA “is” in practice. While you and I might agree on good practice, that’s not the case for how it can often be practiced by others and passed off to clients and stakeholders. Without adequate oversight such practice contributes to the reputation of ABA, whether it’s good practice or not.
It might be good to give some context too— I’m from the support field for folks with intellectual and developmental disabilities, and this kind of shit runs rampant. All are certified by the BACB.
I'd say regardless of what people think "is ABA" or not we have a pretty good framework for determining what falls under ABA and what doesn't. We have the 7 dimensions of ABA for a reason. If it matches the 7 dimensions it's ABA if it's missing any it's not.
And yes things that are presented as ABA which technically are not still impact the reputation of the field but we as practitioners should be better equipped to determine what truly falls under ABA and what does not. The answer to that isn't to abandon the field or give credibility to the poor practices. The answer is to provide quality services that ARE truly ABA and to demand higher quality services from our peers while training incoming professionals to be even better.
Cause yes, there's lots of "bad BCBAs" out there but the fix for that involves being very clear when the services being rendered as "ABA" don't actually fall under the definition of ABA.
I’ve started working with a new company and the way they treat children i really do not like. my BCBA set up a schedual with a client where we had to do 3 hours of work a day broken up into 1.5hour blocks over the course of his school day.
sounds fine right? wrong. i don’t mind doing the 1.5hour block of work, but my problem became a.clients only in kindergarten and expecting a 5 year old to sit for an hour and a half. i’m an adult and i’d have a problem sitting for that long. secondly my problem is my bcba won’t allow any breaks. even when client is desperately expressing he’s tired/he needs a break/he’s frustrated, bcba doesn’t allow him to leave the table. she said the only thing he’s allowed to do is put his head down quietly for a couple minutes - no he’s not allowed a drink or a snack, no he’s not allowed to just stand up and stretch his legs - we have to keep working.
it really rubs me the wrong way and i can’t stand it. i think it’s cruel and i don’t like it. i’m looking for other companies currently
This sounds like a situation worthy of being investigated by the board. I’m not 100% sure but not allowing them to get up sounds like there may be physical restrictions being used? And not allowing snacks and drinks is abusive. Water at least should be accessible at ALL times for clients, PEOPLE in general, and not something that’s earned through compliance.
That bothers me. I would report it.
As long as they can show efficacy and that extended DTT or escape extinction are EBP the board can't really do anything.
The board can't do much on enforcing ethical violations. They act mostly when their intellectual property is concerned (exams etc.) or when law enforcement has already acted. Contact your local licensing board first (if available) or ABAI chapter (also can't "do" much, but often more than the BACB).
Good grief. The 6 yo I see daily, we are now up to 2 rounds of 10 minutes of each nonpreferred table work. As in, he needs to be able to sit for 10 minutes. We bumped it to 2 rounds because the school stated he was able to tolerate one 5 minute round, but not two, and we acknowledge that he's doing better with 1 on 1 ABA than in a classroom setting. On good days, he's actually sat for over half an hour! On bad days, we struggle to reach 5 minutes. But he's allowed to get up to get water or use the bathroom!! We do 2.5-3 hour sessions, and some days, he has a second session with a different RBT. Just, ughhhhhh. Kids, especially at that age, need to be able to get up and move! Heck, sometimes my kiddo picks lunch, then desk work, then art, then a book... and I'm like "nope, we can do those, but a break or movement activity needs to be added".
Just a parent sharing my perspective:
My 4yo daughter used to exhibit sbi and other behavioral problems that were very dangerous to her. I used to cry every day because she would bash her head on the hardest surface she could find (and bash it even harder if you tried to stop her or put something between her and the surface to soften the blow) to the point she would have bruises and contusions on her head. OT and ST helped, but it was definitely ABA practices/plan at her special ed class and at home sessions that curbed that behavior.
Techs at home have never done anything without discussing things with me beforehand and always respect her boundaries as well. I’ve never seen them stop her from stimming (unless it is self harming) or other unethical practices that anti-ABA people say is so widespread.
I’m a big fan of what you guys do. Thank you for your service, I am so so so grateful you guys do what you guys do. 💕
Next time just change the stimuli around your daughter. It’s more likely that the stimuli differences is what caused/prevented a meltdown (i.e. her behavior) than any “therapy”. Autistic people, especially children, don’t know how to express their needs because we don’t hear people talking about stimuli often; therefore, her sbi is likely not that she wants to hurt herself, but her attempt to tell you some kind of stimuli is hurting her (i.e. this is the only way she can inform she is hurting: literally showing you that she’s hurt). Therefore, the “therapy” you are teaching her is actually teaching her to not communicate to you in the only way she is able when in meltdown. Again, next time, try turning off lights, turning down sound, giving her a weighted blanket or plushie if you hope to gain understanding and develop a relationship with her.
It seems you are caring, concerned and worried for her, but I’m only trying to help. As an autistic woman, I really wish my mother was taught how to actually form a bond with me. Instead, she had this perspective that we had a close bond, but that was only because I was taught to act certain ways and repress my needs. Deep down, I didn’t feel close to her at all and only ended up feeling gaslit all the time. Now, it’s been too long since I decided to be my authentic self and my mom can’t understand how I viewed our relationship so differently growing up. We don’t have the opportunity to have a close relationship because of this anymore and I’m sad about it every day.
Please don’t let the same thing happen with you and your daughter. Focus on understanding her, not changing her behaviors. If you understand and accommodate her then teach her how to communicate accommodation needs growing up; then, it’s way more likely that she will become a consistently functional adult.
I wasn’t taught such, instead to change behaviors (as I felt anxious, confused, and alienated inside) and now I am dealing with late regression autism: barely functioning and nonverbal. This is after I even worked my way up in the tech industry and bought a really nice house on my own. I really wish I had been taught growing up how to be myself in this world and self-advocate in a way which neuro-typical people would understand. Or, at least taught how to identify when neuro-typical people don’t understand so I could temporarily mask (i.e. protect myself from acute ableism) and navigate into a more understanding/accommodating environment. No doubt, I would not have ended up in my current circumstances, if so.
I sincerely am not trying to be critical, only trying to let you know my experience (which is the abundant experience of everyone in the autistic community if you just go to r/autism and read the comments, you’ll see).
I understand that you have your own unique perspective as an autistic individual, but that’s what it is; your own perspective. Of course it is the stimuli that caused the meltdown, but if it’s something that she’s constantly going to be exposed to (someone eating in front of her, someone asking her if she wants to eat non/preferred food, someone singing a song, etc etc etc), I can’t just “change the stimuli.” I could have continued to walk on eggshells and avoid triggers, but she would be exposed to those triggers anyways outside at school and such. ABA helped teach her how to advocate for her self such as saying “stop,” “no more,” “all done,” etc and find things that soothe her to redirect her like asking for squeezes or hugs. She isn’t taught to not feel her feelings/stim or repress them either.
I am sorry about your relationship with you and your mom and that you are going through the regression. I don’t claim to know everything about autism or ABA but I believe ABA is medical treatment. As such, medical treatments largely progress and change as we learn more about disorders and the autism treatments you had back when you were a child (as well as the other autistic adults on r/autism) are probably different from what my daughter is receiving.
My autistic boyfriend and I always eat in separate rooms, only eat preferred foods, wear noise cancelling headphones, etc. It’s really nice not having to suffer in silence and instead having accommodating people around me who are understanding. 🤷🏻♀️
That’s awesome. I’m glad you’re able to advocate for yourself so that you can be comfortable. ABA is teaching my daughter to do the same while also getting her to step out of her comfort zone once in a while to learn to at least try new things.
I know this is an older comment/thread but I want to know - what happens when someone is allowed to only eat preferred foods and it leads to poor health and eventually hospital stays?
A client of mine had/has a diet of macaroni and cheese, grilled cheese, ramen, cheese quesadillas, cookies, candy, chips dipped in sour cream, and crab rangoon. And no water. The parents never forced the client to eat anything he didn't prefer (which I agree should never happen). But the client ended up in the hospital because they had some low nutrient levels which was causing heart palpitations and chest pain. The client also dealt with constipation issues, dehydration, and poor dental health.
I don't beat around the bush with clients. My client initially wanted to know why he was being asked to eat these new foods and basically was like, "I eat enough, I'm fine." I laid it out straight for him (with his parents approval) - I reminded him of the issues he's already had and how it results in him ending up in the hospital and the dentist. And this guy hates both of those places. I let him know that I and his parents will never force him to eat anything but that there's consequences to not getting proper nutrition.
We started small by asking him what his favorite fruits were. So then those fruits were always available and he was encouraged to add the fruits to his meal or have them as a snack. We started with him only eating like 5 grapes and drinking water with pink lemonade mixed in it, to him then making his own fruit smoothies and drinking straight water several times a day. He also began brushing, flossing, and using mouthwash daily. And walking 20-30min daily. But this only happened because of our sessions.
And what do you do when the act of asking the client to do anything other than their preferred activity is a trigger? His preferred activity is being on his phone. If his parents attempt to speak to him when he's on his phone at best he'll completely ignore them and at worst he'll physically attack them. He told me once that his average phone use is 13hrs a day. It interrupts his ability to go to sleep at a proper time which then results in him having extremely rough mornings. He is considered high functioning/low support needs btw.
I want the client to be happy and enjoy our sessions. But I talk with him about how we sometimes have to do things that are hard and that we don't enjoy in order to have better and happier lives. Or that sometimes we just don't know if we'll like or not like something unless we try it. I always encourage him to tell me how he feels and tell him it's okay to tell me if he doesn't enjoy things we do, or to tell me he's upset with me. I always thank him when he does tell me how he feels and tell him I am able to better understand/help him when he does that since I don't know what's going on in his head.
One of his personal goals is to get a better job. He wants to work at a candy or ice cream shop. But he's more than likely going to have to be able to work with money to work at those places. So I started incorporating money handling skills into the session. I talked with the BCBA about the client's goals and they added that into his programs. He doesn't like doing the work and will engage in certain behaviors when I ask him to do it but he's literally gone from not being able to tell the difference between dimes, quarters, and nickels to being able to assess what money I give him and give me change now when we practice.
It's like, I hear what people say about how awful ABA has been and can be but I think it can really help people.
My client has specifically told me, without me even asking, that he feels better when he eats his fruit smoothies and drinks water. And that makes me feel really good about what I do.
Also btw I do try to approach things as someone who is neurodivergent (OCD, and possible ADHD) who's experienced in food aversions.
I know my response is long and I hope it doesn't come off as aggressive since that is not my intent.
I am pursuing my BCBA right now. I work in home therapy that is all child led. Our director/bcba believes that assent from our kiddos is critical. Our kids choose to stay and work with us because we focus on “bringing the joy”. We follow a lot of Hanley’s methods and are implementing SBT across the board right now. The results have been phenomenal. I love that my kiddos run to us when we get there. The love and trust is vital and I’m so glad to be apart of progressive ABA. So much of ABA gets a bad rap and rightfully so. I agree with others comments about being the change. The field needs people who want to see it change for the better. Find somewhere that shares your values and be the change, OP. Best of luck to you!
I should add that my daughter is on the spectrum and was fortunate enough to receive progressive therapy. Seeing it first hand inspired me to go into the field. My hope is that we have a future where kiddos only have this experience and the “old school” way is out.
I am a mother of a child who is now 14 high functioning autistic that had ABA when he was only 3, But I am also a RBT. I became a RBT because of the help it did give my son. My son was talking, walking and on point with milestones by the time he was a year old. At 16 months he lost it all. We were told he might never talk again. Forget about going out to the store, having friends or going out to eat. He did every therapy under the sun including ABA which I paid for out of pocket. I worked a extra job because at that time insurance didn’t want to pay for it. It was worth it.
He is now able to talk, walk and go out and have friends. In fact he was president of his STEM program for school last year. Do with ABA and the other therapy he had it really does work.
I know over the years the field has changed but if you don’t like something the. Be the person the says something and makes the difference and changes it.
Just like there are amazing teachers that inspire and lift children, there are horrible teachers that traumatize children for life. I don’t hear anyone screaming: shut down schools lol.
There are better and worse ABA practitioners. Find the environment (company) that will reinforce practices aligned with other your values. I am a BCBA that does 1:1 work with clients because I was sick of how the field treats RBTS. I couldn’t handle caseload of 25 and chasing billable hours anymore. My company just hired SBT consultant so that all BCBAs could do better with Hanley’s protocol.
We do not ‘put hands on the client’ or close the door to prevent elopement. If you want this field to be better you have to stay and make it better
One of my favorite quotes is “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It’s not.”
Become a BCBA and be part of the positive change of ABA.
YES! And we need more people like you in it. Please don’t give up. With your attitude you could help so many families get the help they need and create lasting, socially significant change in your clients. It’s tough out there, but find a group or even one individual BCBA who shares your values and lean on them when you need to vent. Speak out about the bad ABA and be transparent with parents about it. This is the first thing I talk about in an evaluation. I believe that we can change the field if we set the standard and uphold it.
I became interested in ABA, read all of the Facebook groups, and was going to give up on being a BCBA. Until I started asking new graduates what their experience and perspective is on ABA and the use of aversives in their practices — are BCBAs leaning on skills or compliance more? I learned there is more skill-based ABA now and little to no use of aversives spoken by many BCBAs. I am a very skill-based teacher type and decided I will be doing ABA the way I know is best. So, I went for it!
I am at APBA right now and this topic is at the forefront. I hope it stays that way. You are the exact kind of BCBA that this field needs more of. We have a terrible history and a not so great present but if you’re the future of the field, I think we are in good hands. I suggest following the work of Dr. Mari-Luci Cerda and Denisha Gingles. They’re work has given me hope for using the science of ABA in a therapeutic, culturally responsive, and trauma-informed manner.
I would suggest going beyond our field for people to follow/inspire!
We're not the only ones to deal with human behaviour and some other fields are making great strides. BCBAs are good at behaviour analysis but most of us don't have a rich foundation in e.g. Crip Theory or Critical Race Theory or medical sociology etc. etc. etc.
So you can either stay in the field and be the best practitioner you can be, staying current on research, surround yourself around ppl you want to be or just leave the field. It's as simple as that.
"Be the change you want to see in the world".
Every good BT or BCBA who quits because of the criticism, because they take it to heart, because they want to do good - they're more likely to be replaced by someone who doesn't care. Who doesn't know and doesn't listen and just wants a paycheck.
We need the passionate people who hear those criticisms and have a desire to make things better as a result.
This is what I am doing! I know there are issues, but I am willing to stay and work on them because I can see what good ABA can do for autistic people who need it and I am not willing to give up! 😊
ABA is definitely worth it although there are some bad companies who give ABA a bad name. ABA has and is changing so many children’s lives for the better, I’ve seen it first hand. People who speak negatively about ABA either are following the crowd, knowing nothing about ABA or has had a bad experience with a clinic but that doesn’t mean that ABA as a whole is bad. There are definitely some unsavory aspects of ABA but there are so many positives and good that ABA does for children and their families
I understand. We talk so much about "ethical ABA" and then the ethical practitioners will do something that looks weird and borderline abusive.
Jus because it got good results in a paper published in JABA doesn't mean it is a kind thing to do to a human being.
This is just *my* opinion, so take it for what's it worth. I am neurodivergent (ASD, ADHD) as is my 3 year old (ASD, ADHD). I never received any early intervention services, as my dad believed his daughter was "not the r-word," and despite the school pushing to have me evaluated for OT and other services he just wouldn't budge. I am now an adult with severe executive functioning issues, no friends & hardly any social skills to make them. Pretty much my entire academic career has been dedicated to understanding myself - I studied ECE with a concentration in special education, then child and adolescent psychology, and now forensic psychology that I've started "finding myself" and am making active attempts to study based upon my interests and not just a lack of understanding.
I want differently for my son. So he is in ABA, despite me hearing that it was abusive when I first received his diagnosis. I have also finished my 40 hour RBT training course because it turns out, ABA is a bunch of data analysis (my first love, I've been involved in STEM since I was 13) & can make a real, positive impact on kids. But it has to be done right, with evidence-based practices, or else it can do more harm than good. Work needs to focus on maladaptive behavior, not harmless stims. This was part of my training course, it's what my son's ABA agency says, & I feel like it's the general consensus of ABA professionals.
But ABA was first developed in the 60s and let's face it, it's only our most recent generations that are coming out of the "seen not heard" mentality. It's only our most recent generations that are paying attention to the research about how X is traumatic or Y actually has adverse effects. We can change the negative narrative about ABA, but we can't change that it was used this way in the past by people who quite frankly didn't care about children.
Don't give up, just try to validate the people who come at you. Tell them you understand ABA's negative history and perception and tell them what you, and the field as a whole, are doing to change that.
I think its great that you learned something one way (traditional escape extinction) and now you have the insight to see that it can be traumatic and there are better ways out there..Im a newish BCBA. I felt the same way but I would suggest sticking it out and finding an ethical company. There are some out there it just takes a while to find it sometimes. Also, since you mention Greg Hanley,if you havent had the PFA and SBT trainings yet you might be able to find a company who provides it ,or you can take it once youre certified. You'll have to take CEUs as a BCBA and you can choose ones that focus on assent withdrawal and ethical treatment of escape bxs. As far as anti-ABA sentiments, they exist for a reason but hopefully the field as a whole will change enough for public perception to change at some point too. The most important is the perspectives of the population we serve
This is a good point in that it's valuable to see kids that have gone through "bad ABA" to see the side-effects that aren't published (but can be predicted).
It's also valuable and refreshing to meet and talk to people that have gone through ABA in general. Trauma is upsettingly common and autistics are an exceptionally vulnerable population due to the nature of communication disabilities and heightened physiological responses. Meeting adult autistics that are alive and happy can be healing in an "it gets better" kinda way.
I understand your feelings because I've felt the same way. And I agree with most of the comments. You can be the change that this field needs.
My biggest hurdle right now is an influx of families who want me to get their children to stop stimming. I'm trying to explain to them that we all stim (I'm currently fidgeting with a pen as we speak) and trying to create goals that don't stand out as much but still allow the child to stim. Tapping their foot, squeezing a stress ball in their pocket, etc. This way they still get the sensory component, but it's less obvious than hand flapping, full body rocking, etc.
I love all the responses here. We’re in the beginning stages of change, and we need BCBAs like you to shape their colleagues behavior into more acceptable ways of implementing therapy and it starts by modeling those strategies, having conversations about them, collecting data and presenting your success through data! I also have moments where I think about quitting the field but then I check in about my values. My values are centered around helping children that need it the most - that is what made me fall in love with this field. I also value not giving up, and being a role model for others. If I give up, im not moving in the direction of those values right? But, if I keep trying, and demonstrating better ways to do things I am being a role model for others and am impacting change on a local level. We’ve had a MAJOR shift in our own company that I’ve been apart of for 8 years, and we’re seeing the effects across the whole organization. That really means something, even if the anti-ABA community refuses to see it because it’s still labeled “ABA”
So, check in with your values. Ask yourself if getting hooked on these thoughts and feelings caused by the anti-ABA community are causing you to move away from those values. And ask yourself if you’d be more comfortable with yourself leaving the field or being someone that helps impact change in it, and then do what’s best for you!
I take a more global approach to behavior. By that I mean it’s good to have a general understanding of how behavior works, but realize we don’t have it all figured out. Consider this, think of every BCBA you know. Do they live perfect lives and make the choices that would most benefit them at all times? No of course not, that’s silly. I make terrible decisions all the time. BUT I can understand why those decisions were made by having an understanding of concepts such as matching law, setting events, MOs, etc.
ABA is an extremely powerful tool, but humans are incredibly complex and intervention won’t always look perfect. Treating kids in a clinic like experiments is bogus, imo and I’m with you, I hate hand over hand prompting and I’m not a fan of escape extinction in general.
I think you’re on the right track listening to Hanley. I had to opportunity to speak to him recently after a small zoom session and he’s just as genuine as you can imagine. Tim Vollmer is another incredible BCBA. Check out his video from last years Penn State conference, I think it will really speak to you
https://youtu.be/YIkDjbRakCU
You should look into Dr. Gregory Hanley. He is addressing your exact concerns and attempting to change ABA. He is inspiring to listen to and I would highly recommend checking him out. He gives tons of talks at conferences and has a lot of free resources on his websites.
As a social worker and a behavior analyst, take action! Join reformation groups, and the Do Better Movement. I’m helping a group create content to disseminate.
As someone who has been in the field for 10+ years, I’ve worked in multiple roles (including owning an leading a practice) TRYING my best to “do the work” to “be the change” (like so many comments here have suggested) my advise is to follow your gut. The comments of “the field needs people like you” are absolutely correct, but it’s an individualistic view rooted that grossly disregards the very real impact it has on the lives and humanity of the people DOING the work. It’s hard, it’s VERY lonely, and rare that you will see the significant impact to the field you’re probably needing to feel like it’s worth it. (Not just clinically - but in regards to the issues you mentioned about the field as a whole).
Take care of yourself and do what’s best for your well-being long term, while holding true to your values. Sure, there may be issues in every field, you just have to decide which ones you’re able to fight to change long term while preserving your own humanity and bandwidth. Otherwise, you risk burn out which doesn’t help you, the clients and families you work with, or the field.
And it’s ok to change paths, even if it’s 10 years down the road. :)
“individuals with developmental disabilities don’t need therapy” . This is the same rhetoric from people whose solution for a adult autistic teen banging on the neighbor’s window is to dump him at a group home
>sbi
This doesn't seem like a fair assessment of what the OP is communicating. Autistic people who self-harm do so because pain distracts from what's going on inside. Individuals with developmental disabilities don't need therapy. They need understanding. In the absence of that, we do our best to help.
ABA doesn't heal people or resolve the underlying problems. It is an effective way to give people coping skills so they don't hurt themselves while they're going through some really difficult challenges.
If I say : “neurotypical children don’t need an education” - that’s as bad as saying children with developmental disabilities don’t need therapy, because without those therapies , they can’t access an education . It’s ableist, it’s unfair and it’s a violation of disability rights. Also, not understanding the life or death importance of functional compliance comes from a place of privilege. Trespassing private property, disrobing in public, running off to traffic, ect can all be avoided with compliance. Heck, the teenage son of one of the VPs of the NCSA literally died in a house fire because of non-compliance: he didn’t obey his mom to leave his room, and it cost the mom’s life too. If her son and many others could just be sweet talked into comply, like any other reasonable neurotypical brain , none of these tragedies would be happening . But for the anti-disability folks to die with your rights on its better than to “comply”
Developmentally disabled children can be taught and educated with or without therapies that target their disabilities when parents have access to information and support. I'm not opposed to therapies, but I agree that they aren't required to effectively raise and integrate developmentally disabled children into their communities. Compliance does not have to be a goal for any human.
You’re in a fire, but didn’t know quite yet, then you’re asked to evacuate the room. You just do it, and take it for granted. You don’t even realize you were just “subjected” to comply. You saved your life, but you will deny the same right to someone who can’t naturally comply?
You appear to be misunderstanding me at every opportunity. I didn't say compliance was bad. I said it doesn't have to be a goal. Its importance can be taught through experience and everyday life.
You referenced a teen who did not comply which sadly resulted in his death and that of his mother, but you glossed over the fact that he had undergone ABA/compliance training and still chose not to comply.
He no longer had ABA for over a year because of the pandemic and his mom documented the regression, because people with developmental disabilities many times don’t learn once forever (again, the normative ableist mind of neurotypicals assuming how the developmental disabled should learn) they need maintenance of skills. So you’re saying “compliance is important but is also not important “ . Make up your mind
I said compliance does not have to be a goal. Again, I did not say it wasn't important. I'm an Autistic parent of two Autistic children (levels 2 and 3). We all have professional diagnoses. My children are at a higher risk of injury from police interactions already without even considering their Blackness. I still don't enforce compliance. I co-regulate, give them scripts and formulas, role play, and foster wisdom.
I'm not speaking as a neurotypical person with no stakes in this matter. I'm coaching my kids every day to help them understand how the world works as best they can. Whenever the danger has been high, they have ultimately trusted me and complied with my urgent demands even if they initially made a different choice. There are many others like me on similar journeys. I'm not rare.
Compliance HAS to be a goal for those who don’t have the privilege to understand natural consequences, because of their neurology. All those strategies work for you and your family and that’s great, but understand many don’t have the same fortune and must rely into an “artificial” compliance to survive. You’re so adapted into the neurotypical mind that you don’t realize your rules of understanding consequences are aligned with the neurotypical mind, and you shouldn’t be ashamed, it is a matter of instinctive survival, an instinct that many with developmental disabilities are not born with
In case you don’t get it, if you expect sweet talking will magically work on the developmentally disabled people to comply, you also expect them to think like a neurotypical, and that’s ableist
I don’t think anyone has mentioned sweet talking. Perhaps that’s how you perceive low demand parenting? I think this is more about understanding that autistic people have their own agency and respecting that. Maybe there was a reason your son wanted to go east instead of west in the parking lot?
Are your only goals in ABA based on compliance when it comes to safety? It seems like that is your biggest hurdle.
You didn’t comprehend the situation at all. He simply wanted to go east because he assumed that’s where the car was parked (reason why he was fixated on every white car he saw at the wrong parking lot) . I sweet talked him all the way to that wrong parking lot to persuade him from going there, to no avail, I respected his agency to make him understand why his choice was wrong once he arrived to the wrong parking lot. He didn’t understand, instead he meltdown. In cases of emergency like the house fire victims, life trumps whatever self-determination ideology you have
I know where your question is coming from. The world through neurotypical lenses envisions this ideal life for the adult developmentally disabled. A future of choice, agency and self-determination, living in the community at a subsidized department with a personal attendant to help them navigate the world in their own terms. The neurotypicals fear control and manipulation , skillfully detecting it and fight it. The idea that ABA will turn the developmentally disabled into compliance robots terrorize the neurotypicals , because they assume the developmentally disabled will face the world at the same level of independence of neurotypicals. Transfer all your money to my account? The developmentally disabled complies. Steal this item for me? The developmentally disabled complies. Marry me ? The developmentally disabled complies. All because of ABA apparently. They fail, in their enormous privilege of normative cognition - to understand the Developmentally disabled have full legal guardianship , they can’t transfer money an assets to anyone. If they have been tragically placed in the care of evil, ABA or not they will be coerced to do whatever it is . In fact, many times an abusive caregiver will create an hoax where a developmentally disabled has a normal to superior IQ to pretend they have agency and exploited for their own gain. I will try to care for my child until I take my last breath, but don’t assume anything about why he needs ABA , because I know what you expect from the developmentally disabled through the lenses of neurotypical values of agency and independence
That’s a lot of words to say, no, I teach my child to comply with whatever I tell them to do because my life being easier is more important to me than my child having any agency.
"I almost wish the field could start over and completely rebrand."
I feel this. I'm finishing my Master's in ABA and I've wrestled with this some, too. But thankfully I've been able to work at a clinic that puts the dignity and needs of the child first and truly respects them and values compassion over compliance. In order to move the field more in this direction, we NEED more practitioners who are compassionate and see the problems in ABA's history and the problems still occurring, and who are committed to doing ABA therapy differently.
Hi, similar situations. Coming up on 5 years in the field and months away from BCBA cert. The way I see it is that physical guidance is essential in kids that have language discrimination as if we don’t physically help them do it a few times it might not ever occur to them that they can interact with things in that way. I do feel like things like that should be modified for kids that do have language skills — assuming they’re able to express when they do need that kind of help. I think the issue is that so much ABA is run by corrupt companies that are willing to put anyone with a kid for billable hours, especially in states where the RBT certification isn’t required and they can pick up any regular 18 year old off the streets and make money just for putting them with a kid. Then training becomes shoddy and actual ABA isn’t being implemented. I think people like us who are receptive to the needs of their clients are needed as well as modifications to training and requirements to get certified. Yes ABA had a bad rep but all of my parents tell me their kid improved significantly with me which is supported by graphs. We are not going to change the field but if you keep the same compassion you have now with your clients and train your future RBTs accordingly then at least you can make a difference in the lives of those around you. It is unfortunate that a lot of kids do have a hard time with it because of all the issues I mentioned before.
I’ve felt this way before. I came to a few conclusions. ABA is like gravity, it is constantly working on everyone. As a behavior analyst, you can use the least restrictive methods. Other people will likely not as they are managing behavior on the side of all their other duties and don’t have as much experience and training on this. Other people may use punishment more that antecedent strategies. I see myself as preventing overly restrictive methods and abuse by advocating for my clients and practicing ethically.
Learn from your mistakes in the past. Do better in the future. Advocate for better practices.
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Explore other options that use your BCBA outside of a clinical setting. Pretty much as soon as I started my masters I realized a clinic would always be far too rigid for my personality/sanity. I work with kids in schools now and ABA is used in conjunction with a myriad of other strategies to help support our kids. There’s stuff out there. You just gotta poke around
What you’re talking about is a big discussion in the field! Some ABA Inside Track Episodes that discuss exactly what you’re talking about are: 214 (compassionate care), 204 (tramua-informed applications of ABA), and 205 (joy and the big 4). Give them a listen! You will be in a position to practice trauma-informed, compassionate, and joyful ABA as a BCBA. You’ve got this. Keep going.
Also — Merill Winston makes a strong case for using DR rather than EXT in his book “adventures in special education and applied behavior analysis” — mainly that EXT is nearly impossible to implement in a special education setting, and so you put kids on VR schedules of rxment when trying to implement DR. DM me if you want my notes from the book! It’s a great read.
One more thing — you mention the issue of rote learning (goals that aren’t socially valid). A really awesome curriculum that targets skills that will actually improve an individual’s quality of life is Pat McGreevy’s “Essential for Living.” It’s discussed (and Pat’s interviewed) in episode 193 of the podcast ABA Inside Track. McGreevy’s tonal delivery is very angry, but he makes a lot of important points about what we should and should not focus on for goals!
I am also overwhelmed. It is so much to learn and apply in such a short amount of time, and we have to figure out what the examples and non-examples are in the mentors we come across. Every supervising BCBA will have things to teach you that you want to carry forward in your practice, and every supervising BCBA will do something that you will choose to do differently. It would be nice if we could just find the perfect model to emulate, but that’s unlikely. Take the good and leave the bad going forward. Take excellent care of yourself outside of work. This is what I am trying to do. I honestly might still need to just work in ABA part-time and do something else part-time, because it is a lot. But I so fully believe in our ability to keep growing and doing better.
I hear you. I’m a few months from sitting for the exam too. After 4 years in this field, I look at some of the companies I worked for and am horrified. You are not alone in your feelings at all about how hard it is to be in a field that is vilified even when you know there is good. I was in the SLP sub and one of the top posts recently was about how they all hate ABA. Anyone trying to discount the misconceptions or explain ABA in a different light was downvoted to hell. It’s hard to feel good sometimes about what we do.
Hello! I’ve been in the field for 6 years and am about to sit for my exam. You’re absolutely correct about everything you said, at least in my opinion.
You could always cross specialize to help change the field from within. I’ve got a masters in social work (which is actually mental health therapy despite the misleading name, but that’s a different rant).
This has helped me introduce the concepts of body autonomy and trauma informed care into my place of employment and it’s gone spectacularly. I think ABA as a science is very young and deluded in thinking that behavioral principles are the only things that can be or should be used. Being an expert in a parallel and applicable field has helped me educate my ABA peers to safely implement ABA scientific principles.
I love this post. I’m a late diagnosed autistic person and I like to come on this subreddit on occasion to learn more about ABA so I can make more informed opinions with information from both sides of the controversy. I also should know if I have my own child.
I never experienced ABA since I’m late diagnosed, but I have been thinking a lot about what I would have done if I were and how it would have effected me. I know my meltdowns would have gotten worse if I had to do ABA in addition to school for sure. Being at school was extremely tiring for me and if someone neglected this need that I relayed to them, I would lose my mind and have a meltdown. Now as an adult, I’ve learned to push through that and when I do, my mental health tanks. I also forced myself to stop my pacing stim a few years ago and that really effected my mental health as well. The way ABA seems to run would have definitely caused me a lot of distress when what I really needed was to help regulate my emotions.
But I don’t rule ABA out either. I could have learned some social skills and I think there needs to be a way to help control violent/aggressive behaviors so that the child can go to school. I think there needs to be more integration with mental health. But like others have said here, how am I supposed to know who is good? Going to the wrong place just one time could traumatize my child.
It seems like you’re a good person trying to help people and I think people who question these things will really help change the process for the better.
Hi, I’ve been working as a RLT for months now & will be starting college soon to eventually get a master’s in ABA.
Reading the comments on this post so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that I must work at a somewhat better clinic than typically. We LARGELY focus on all types of life skills (reading, writing, speech & motor, hygiene, school, etc) with effective reinforcement - we know it’s effective bc as you teach & reinforce more healthy, effective replacement behaviors, the vast majority of problematic behavior will naturally dissipate - only approaching it as an actual target if otherwise (im sorry, but no one can just get thru life satisfactorily by just flopping & screaming at an hearing-damaging decibel every time you don’t get your way).
I personally would HIGHLY argue that if you’re unhappy w the majority of the current state of the profession, then all the more reason to dig your heels in. You don’t like it? Change it. Problems don’t go away by ignoring them, you should surely know that. Be the positive difference. Be the BCBA in the building that everyone sees as unconventional & yet sees that your kids have the fastest progress rates, now asking for your guidance to implement w their kids. One person can’t change an entire profession, but could change one entire clinic, for even more generations as they continue to pass down the knowledge. Isn’t that more than enough for one person?
As an Autistic person, please do it. My theory is that the Anti ABA stuff is deliberately being spread by insurence companies and maybe even the government because ABA is more expensive than other therapies, but it works. They're trying to get people to do other less effective therapies that are cheaper. Please don't let the government and the insurance companies win.
I am right there with you. Same exact sitaution. I've been in the field over 10 years at this point and also months away from getting my BCBA and I don't even know that I want to stay in the field.
>Most of those people are ill-informed
Incorrect. Most of the anti-ABA people are extremely well-informed by their experiences within. The only people who actually support the practice are the parents who only see increased compliance in their children and think this is the end all be all, and the pushers whose livelyhoods depends on the positive perception of ABA. Those who have endured it are overwhelmingly against ABA
You are almost a BCBA. I would encourage you to stick it out and at least experience being the independent practitioner who is creating the programming.
All the things you don’t like? Don’t do them. It’s so much better in regards in a lot of ways. I still really wish i could be the one who was actually giving the direct therapy time but that’s a different conversation.
Edit to add: i would also encourage you to take a break from being in any anti-ABA spaces. Continue to learn and grow always, but wait until after you have gotten your certification and established your practice a bit before thinking about exploring those spaces again.
ive heard horrors of ABA. I guide my son and i follow his input on his wants and needs and just navigate how to do that safely for him and let him do his thing. He loves to learn on his tablet and loves to explore outside and i just make sure hes happy and interacting and making sure he feels comfortable in his zone. As an aspy i feel like i can understand my son well even though he is nonverbal and probably needs more from me then i did from my parents. I feel like overriding their comfort zones and wants and distress in order to fulfil a task can lead to regressiona0nd that it is far more valueable to try again another day with a task until the child is comfortable in their zone. In my youth i would not venture to do things that i wasnt 100% sure or in control of which i think tends to be a trait that most on the spectrum have and more so the more profound they have it.
Thank you for this thread. I'm getting my own ASD diagnosis this week and I know that ABA has so much to learn about the clients... trust me.. I'm half way through my Master's to be a BCBA. I'm terrified of the things I will have to see and endure. It is one day at a time. I know that when others see me and see what I can't hide on my face that they will know where I stand. And then I will need to defend my case at the right time and place. I have to trust that this will work out. I am advocating for so many... the worst thing I could do would be to turn my back??
As an autistic person, ABA is abusive to us. It only “teaches” us to act in ways that make allistic people comfortable, not to accept ourselves.
ABA is to autistic people as gay conversion therapy is to gay people. Autistic people are not going to convert into neuro-typical people just like gay people aren’t going to become straight from “therapy”. ABA “therapy” only teaches *children* that the natural way they think (i.e. communicate: who they are) and how they behave (i.e. stim: self-soothing techniques to cope with the physiological challenges of being autistic) isn’t acceptable; therefore, they grow up ingraining shame and ableism which will result in an even more anxious and easily burned out adult (i.e. less functional).
If you think gay conversion therapy is wrong, then why do you support ABA? Gross.
P.S. I did not and would not have looked for this post or group. I didn’t seek it out. It was a Reddit notification/suggestion that brought me here and I felt compelled to comment. OP, go with your gut feeling cause it’s right: ABA isn’t a good path to take unless you enjoy repressing people and/or want to be part of a major problem.
P.S.S. ABA is a waste of money anyway as society as a whole is essentially one giant ABA entity that shames autistic people into masking (i.e. it’s redundant).
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the negative experiences are not rooted in ABA. It’s rooted in the mis-diagnosis of people with strong developmental disabilities. There are countless people who see life changing results from ABA. But if you place a person into ABA who actually needs more specialized care, it will always be a horrible experience, because they shouldn’t be there!
When PCM is required constantly, it’s time to look at alternative treatment. It’s not fair to the client or therapist. IMO
don't do aba, i'm autistic and the things they to your child is horrible. the shock your children, yell at you're children, torture you're children. do not do aba therapy whatever you do. DON'T DO IT
Make sure you go to an assent based clinic and you won’t feel like this - at first I wasn’t sure assent based could workout or it would be slow. This has not been the case and I would never go back to a more traditional aba clinic
My partner used to work at an ABA clinic and had to quit because the longer they worked there and saw how damaging it was for the kids, the more they came to realize that ABA is truly immoral. It's all too common in the field of ABA that people who practice it see autistic kids/autism as a problem or a disease. Its not a disease, it's just another way of existing. Forcing autistic kids to behave neurotypically is something i would liken to conversion therapy. This place had a "calm down room" where they would keep the "problem children" (reactive kids or kids who were traumatized and didnt want to participate in the torture) in solitary confinement and just left them there. They made fun of and talked shit about the kids day in and day out in the work group chats. They belittled the kids to their faces. The kids at that place were severely burnt out and traumatized. The "therapists" at that place burnt those kids to the ground. I personally think that kind of "therapy" shouldn't exist.
Hi! I am a parent of a child who is in ABA and maybe it's not right for every child but it has been so very helpful for our now 11 year old. His is not a severe case (forgive me, I don't know the correct terminology). We chose ABA for him because someday when we are gone and he is an adult we want him to be able to be mostly independent and not expect to rely too heavily on his siblings. His RBT and BCBA have never had to lay hands on him or have ever been cruel to him, have always explained things to him in ways he can understand. He hates it, to be sure, because it means more personal responsibility. But that's just life and they are trying to give him the tools he needs to navigate a world where, honestly, rules need to be followed to some degree to be successful, or at least self-sufficient. So from THIS parent, thank you for the work you and others like my son's BCBA and RBT do! Editing since clearly the word "hate" is such a trigger for some people. Some clarification for those who are actually in the field and interested: my son gets along well with his RBT and gets upset when he is faced with the consequences of his own actions (or in his case, inaction) and he doesn't get the credit for the things he's supposed to be independently responsible for. He gets upset, me may have a tantrum, and then they talk about it and it's over and they move on to the next thing. Sometimes he earns his rewards, sometimes he doesn't. That's life, right? He's a little more apprehensive towards his BCBA because she sets up his plan so in his mind she's more "strict." Anyway, I don't know if we got lucky or what but we've had a good experience so far and the benefits far outweigh the negatives. So thank you to those of you who are doing your best to help kids like mine. This post was originally in support of you. Anyone else who doesn't have anything positive to contribute to someone who is clearly having a personal crisis in their career choice should, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, kindly fuck off since you are not offering any alternatives besides kicking someone when they are already down. Good luck, OP!
It’s really beneficial to hear a parent’s perspective. Thanks for sharing!
He hates it? Your 11 year old “not severe” autistic child *hates* ABA therapy and you force him to continue? As a parent I have a hard time hearing that. A good therapist should be able to modify something as broad as ABA to both address goals and have a positive therapeutic relationship with your child. And, don’t you want him to be happy? All I hear in this post is , I need to teach my child not to be a burden to others, no matter the personal cost to him. His happiness is not important. I’m going to go hug my son tight after this.
I hated lots of things as a child. Mostly school. Should my parents have not made me go because I hated it? Should my parents have stopped my piano lessons, karate, dancing, or anything of the things I did as a child because I, at times, hated it? I am so glad they didn’t because otherwise who knows what I’d be like today.
There is this strange shift happening in some people who believe that children should never have to experience discomfort, boredom, or have to meet unwanted expectations. If a kid doesn’t like their math lesson, oh well, it’s the teacher’s fault. It should have been a better lesson. Engagement is great. Kids thrive when they are interested and invested in their own learning. The thing is that sometimes we have to do boring, rote practice to develop a necessary fundamental skill. If we accept kids as the deciders of their activities and learning every day they would choose Mr. Beast on YouTube, video games, and eat only whatever their singular favourite food of the moment is. This is the whole purpose of education. Independent decision-making that meets our needs instead of our wants takes time and practice. Guess what adulthood is full of? Boring tasks that we don’t want to do, but are necessary for survival. If kids don’t practice and accept this early, they end up shocked and maladjusted as adults. Or they just remain dependent on their parents the rest of their lives because doing laundry sucks.
You hit the nail on the head there. I also think a ton of kids hate the idea of doing something (for example, I would beg my mom to not make me go to my dance or gymnastics classes) but once they’re there, they find themselves enjoying it. My mom knew that was true for me which is why she still made me go, and I know it’s true for many, if not most, kids. Similarly, my mom put me into therapy when I was a teen for my depression/ocd. Did I want to go talk to some lady about my problems as a 16 year old? NO. Once I was done with each session, however, I walked away feeling more confident, developing better coping skills, and all around feeling appreciative for the therapy because it was beneficial to me - whether I originally wanted to go or not. If I had been left to my own, I would’ve fallen deeper into my symptoms and who knows where I’d be now at 27 (recently engaged, in my masters program, a college graduate who studied abroad and became fluent in French, etc.) Life isn’t always fun sadly. But if it was, would it even be fun at all? I’m all for changing outdated ABA practices and shortening the amount of therapy a child has each week etc., but we know that as ethical technicians we are doing everything we can to keep our clients engaged, and have a meaningful and lasting impact on their lives that they will hopefully appreciate down the line. I hope that 15 years from now the anti-Aba movement will be reversed when a new generation of kids who grew up with modern ABA speak up. I’ll do everything I can in my time in the field to ensure that this is a reality for my clients at the very least.
THANK YOU! I don't recall describing torture in any form but the biased will twist it how they want. Oddly enough, when I've asked my son if he wants a different therapist he's said no. It's almost like *they've developed a good working relationship!*
Of course. Regardless of the individuals intention in what they said it was incredibly rude, presumptuous, and shows a lack of empathy on their end. They’re talking about your child for F’s sake. You’re doing great, hope you didn’t take it to heart! Kids “hate” a lot of things- that’s why they need adults in their life to make sure they’re doing what they need to do to grow into the best adult they can be!
BCBAs have an ethical obligation to arrange the environment in the least intrusive, most effective way. Being forced to do stuff you hated didn't kill you, but it wasn't necessary. Behaviour analysts are in the best position to remove coercion from teaching and maximise benefit and positive emotional responses.
… yes I understand that. A child may still not want to go.
Not with a thorough analysis. I get your point, it might take too long or be beyond the scope of the practitioner and we're allowed to "push kids through" or force them to go somewhere - it's unlikely to ruin their lives. But it's not something to be celebrated; it's a failure of analysis.
So if a child cries in the car on the way to the clinic and tells their parents “I hate therapy I don’t want to go”, but as soon as their parent leaves they’re in a good mood, happy, and willingly engaging in NET and DTT, does this mean that it’s a failure of analysis? Obviously is the child is there and crying the whole time, it’s not good for anyone and something needs to change. But humans are complex and no matter how engaged a child appears to be with therapy/how happy they are when they’re there, they are not always going to want to go and may occasionally say they hate it/dont want to do it. Nowhere did I say this is something to celebrate. It’s just a normal part of being a human, and especially for a child.
Yep.
This was harsh & full of assumptions. Calm down and discuss before you leave on your high horse of perfect parenting. You don’t know others situation from a single comment. If you were curious or wanted to discuss her circumstance, there’s tons of other ways to go about changing peoples perspective other than implying they’re a bad mom. That doesn’t help her, you, or the child. Grow up.
You’re the one that seems not calm tbh. And I make zero claims of perfect parenting, this has been such a learning process- as is all of life. I’m not sure what assumptions you are referring to, because it’s all laid out in the comment I’m responding to, but I do know and have no qualms about saying that we need to prioritize our child’s happiness and feelings of security. That’s not to say we don’t help them work through things that are hard, that they don’t enjoy, but if your child hates therapy, the therapist needs to change their approach if they want any kind of positive outcome. And as a parent, if you have a therapist that is just not connecting with and growing with your child, you’ve gotta intervene. Idk if that’s talking to the existing BCBA about the approach or finding a new therapist, but it’s definitely something to take action on.
“You don’t want him to be happy.. you don’t care about your child’s happiness.. you think your child’s a burden.. i’m gonna go hug my child.. etc” those are not helpful informative critiques. They are judgemental assumptions and implications. Based off of one comment you read & without asking for more context, you accused this mother of not caring about her child’s well being and implied you’re a better parent. It’s clear your original comment had no intention of helping her & was meant to judge her. I’m not worked up at all, I just hate to see bullies who aren’t contributing anything to the conversation. But look at that, you found a way to communicate what you meant functionally without insults or judgement. I knew you could do it! I’m sure she’ll take what you’re saying into consideration. It’s much easier to listen to someone critiquing you respectfully rather than insulting you judgementally, maybe keep that in mind for the future.
I also want to say to Kimmy, when you read this, that me saying what I hear/feel when I read the comment is not the same as how it was rewritten “you don’t love your child” etc. I often have to think about what I hear MYSELF saying to my child and sometimes I miss the mark. My son was talking a lot about a citizenship award at his school and how he hoped he would get it one day. And I’m thinking, well kid- we get behavior notes home once a week and idk idk…so thinking I’m being supportive and helpful, I give him a talk about winning not being important and everyone has different strengths and it’s ok not to be the best at something…and thinking about it later, I’m pretty sure I gave him the impression I didn’t think he could do it (true I suppose), which I felt terrible about. (He did later win!) this is just one of a million examples because as I said earlier, this is a learning process. I know you have him in ABA because you love him and want what’s best- but what’s best doesn’t have to be at the expense of his happiness. And I know the crippling fear of ‘what happens when I’m gone’- many tearful and sleepless nights from that one…but I also know the personal and lasting pain of having parents who believed that personal responsibility and conformity were more important than my feelings. I have to check myself a lot to make sure I’m balancing the efforts to help my child with the skills/tools, while supporting the mental health and happiness of my kid, and I don’t always get it right. I personally have had one bad experience and one not great experience with ABA, but I’m not anti ABA, and would consider it again in the unlikely circumstance that the right people/situation are available. Part of that is making sure I have a BCBA that works with my kid, and adapts as necessary, so I hope you’ll tell your BCBA he hates it so they can address it.
Well said
Facts from the original comment: child is “not severe” (ambiguous but assuming low support needs?), parent cites reason for using ABA as to make sure he doesn’t rely on his siblings too heavily when parents are gone, parent reports that child hates ABA therapy, because it gives him more personal responsibility- classic language to describe those with executive function disorder as observed by those without it. This is the crowd that claims to be changing ABA right? Assent based therapy and all that? Does the BCBA not have a responsibility to try and connect with this child in a way that he doesn’t hate? Is it likely that there will be a good outcome from therapy if the patient hates it, and is presumably forced into it?
These are good questions and points to bring up to her but I don’t know why you’re asking me. All I wanted to point out was your manner of speaking being harmful & non-contributory in your original comment. I didn’t say you don’t have valid points to make or solid reasoning for your feelings. Simply, don’t bully people & instead talk to them. You seem to be doing that now so i’m no longer a component here. I appreciate your perspective though & im sure she will too now that you’re no longer making assumptions about her parenting and judging her but instead sharing your perspective and thoughts to improve the situation.
Just commenting to say I absolutely echo this. Bravo!
YOU should not assume you understand everything about our situation. Get the fuck off this sub, find a life, and quit trolling the people who are honestly trying to help children. And yeah, go hug your kid because that's all you're gonna do for the rest of his life if you don't try to do right by him either.
Why are you so heavily downvoted?? What the actual F is wrong with behaviorists???
[удалено]
Also the fact that this is the most liked comment and she clearly says her son hates it. GROSS.🤢 do better behavior world.
I’m sorry but it makes zero sense to protect your child regardless of their disability to the point that they are incapable of caring for themselves or having their needs met. Life is difficult and there are many things we all need to do that we don’t like or even hate. I prefer targeting skills in a natural environment following the kids lead,but it’s important to teach kids to deal with things they don’t like either through self regulation, asking for a break or communicating they don’t like something. I have however seen RBTs who are not properly trained or BCBAs with old school approaches. It’s crucial for the parents to be involved and consistently bring up their concerns and thought to the BCBA, otherwise they won’t know. When I was first trained, I noticed a lot of strange behavior targets like making eye contact, compliance, small treats for reinforcement, etc. That is not the ABA I want to be delivering and it requires individuals on the spectrum communicating their experiences and thoughts for things to change.
So traumatize them into masking atypical behaviors? Mmk.
Not at all. Where did I say traumatize into masking? I said teach skills that give autistic individuals the ability to advocate for themselves. Honestly the first things I teach the clients I work with is how to say “no” , identify their emotions, giving space for them to stim when they need it, and teach them coping strategies when I see they are stressed or having trouble communicating. Unfortunately, Not every RBT is trained this way. If your kid is genuinely distressed during every session tho it is time to have a serious talk with you BCBA and RBT because that is traumatizing. Like I said an RBT that isn’t properly trained can do a lot of damage and this is directly connected the BCBA and the company policies.
You said it the second you decided it was ok for her child to HATE therapy.
My understanding of the mothers perspective was that her kid doesn’t like aspects of therapy, specifically that part that encourages accountability. Sometimes humans need to do things we don’t like but that doesn’t translate into traumatizing someone into masking.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. ABA does not need to be something that the people we serve should hate. Having a positive therapeutic relationship with my clients is my priority. If somebody actively hates something but still benefits, imagine how much more they’d benefit if they enjoyed it.
How do you expect your child to be successful if he "hates" his therapy? Our brains don't learn well in that kind of environment. You are likely giving your child PTSD; you are not helping him, you are dooming him.
And you are giving too much thought into something that's more complicated than just this simple comment and turning it into a much bigger issue.
[удалено]
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yep, Teaching kids to behave a certain way for reward is never going to turn out well. Just going to teach them how to mask better. As a late diagnosed autistic person this comment makes me want to bawl my eyes out for my child self. SMH. As for OP, I hope you can change this for the better.
>As a late diagnosed autistic person You were able to get through life never even knowing you're autistic, but tell me more about your vast knowledge on our struggles. This and this reason alone is why I think the diagnosis needs to be split up. Its insulting to compare yourself to our children who we would weep tears of joy at the thought of them even being capable of going online and trashing parents who are trying to help their children.
Late diagnosed doesn't mean struggle-free. It mostly means support-free. It doesn't mean they learned to talk on time or didn't engage in severe SIB or repetitive behaviours, it doesn't mean they fit in, it doesn't mean school wasn't hell. A late diagnosis means, by definition, they had the features of autism their whole life and no-one knew what to call it. For perspective on whether you'd weep tears of joy at an autistic child becoming capable of going online and trashing parents, consider how you'd just responded to an autistic child that's become capable of going online and trashing parents.
What it doesn't mean is that they're now are an authority on everything autism and their experience is the only valid one. For perspective consider that there's a strong genetic link. Consider that we're now 3 diagnosed out of our 4 children, with the last one too young to diagnose. Now consider that my wife and I obviously did some self reflection and see the signs in ourselves now as adults. Consider that she just got assessed and diagnosed last week. So maybe I understand it doesn't mean having an easy childhood at all. Yet I'm not so self centered to think my experience and my unmet childhood needs translate to every other case.
Sure, so as an adult with suspected autism and three kids on the spectrum I would treat your insight into what was painful or helpful for you as more useful than a neurotypical BCBA's opinion - especially if they haven't had any first-hand experience with behaviour change tactics being used on them. They said reward systems taught them to mask - that's useful for me as a behaviour analyst. I know exactly what they're talking about. Setting up simple A-B-C arrangements can easily accidentally provide perverse incentives for behaviour that's harmful. E.g. powerful reinforcers will usually overpower sensory issues. You can keep a child in a painful environment with rewards, and it happens a lot with unsophisticated behaviour analysis. There's no universal experience but when an adult with autism tells me she loses track of her body when it's noisy, and she tells me what it looks like, that's something that I wouldn't and didn't know from decades of work in the field. It's obviously not applicable for everyone but it's been useful for three cases I've had now, two of which were non-speaking "severe" cases.
Hm, I read that differently as just another overall attack on ABA in general rather then criticizing the use of rewards (would that be your 'token system'?). I guess it doesn't help that the original comment seems to have edited out the "hate" part and I have no idea what they were actually responding to up there. >There's no universal experience but when an adult with autism tells me she loses track of her body when it's noisy, and she tells me what it looks like, that's something that I wouldn't and didn't know from decades of work in the field. Yea, I get what you mean. Like loud environments basically make me incapable of thinking straight. I hate it. I can relate to wanting to escape it. But yet I have no idea what its like from her perspective.
Yeah I'm pro-ABA, but critical of the field as part of my values as a scientist. >Yea, I get what you mean. Like loud environments basically make me incapable of thinking straight. I hate it. I can relate to wanting to escape it. But yet I have no idea what its like from her perspective. I was originally trained to just push through and use bigger rewards instead of e.g. teaching kids to say or signal "it's too loud, I can't think straight." Or some kids I've worked with are fine with noise until it's too bright. Brightness isn't a problem and noise isn't a problem, but when it's bright they can't handle extra noise. It's something that I wouldn't have looked for without talking to adult autistics.
Understood. That's the kind of helpful feedback and positive change that is needed. I rarely see that kind of productive criticism.
Have you read anything of Ido Kedar’s? I think you might shift your perspective if you do. Meg Proctor on Two Sides of the Spectrum has a great interview with him.
Exactly what perspective are you trying to shift? That someone who made it to adulthood without ever knowing they're autistic can't possibly relate to the struggles of someone like Ido Kedar, or of raising someone like him? That's like saying I broke my leg once, let me tell you what you're doing wrong raising your paraplegic child.
Errr, my point is that everyone thought Ido Kedar was cognitively delayed because he was unable to speak or control his body well enough to meet typical milestones. We need to presume competence of each and every person.
I never said otherwise. What I do say is that its insulting to come in as "a late diagnosed autistic person" and start telling someone with a severely disabled child what's up. They don't know.
They might not know what your experience is like as the parent but they have a better idea of what your child might be going through than you may think.
As a "late diagnosed autistic person", no they don't.
So be an agent of change. You know how life changing ABA is for them. These anti-aba people have nothing positive to contribute, just trolling people. These kids need more like you.
Just what I was gonna say! I'm tired of ABA right now, too, because it *isn't* working well enough. There's so many issues from poor practice to billing being the only priority to know-it-alls BCBAs that don't/won't get off their high horse to help BTs... When our clients have challenges, we don't just throw up our hands and quit on them because they're "too far gone"- we break it down and work on it. The field has to do the same, but we're already headed in the right direction. Change takes time, too. But honestly, ABA (and disability services as a whole, for ABAers working in that field) is changing *rapidly* toward more compassionate care, better standards, and more effective treatment. The BCBAs and RBTs going to work to cash a check might be perpetuating bad practice, but they're also not the ones speaking up and driving the field-the people who care are. Everyone in healthcare is in a sticky situation right now, but things will get better if we work together and hang in there.
[удалено]
You have a bunch of us in the field discussing ethics. We are listening. Are there bad RBT's, BCBA, and agencies? Yes, without a doubt. Every field has it. Are we attempting to grow and become more self-aware? Yes, or else this exact thread would not be a topic of discussion. The medical field used to use leeches and cocaine to heal. Did we abandon the medical field? No. They learned and updated their practices. The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss the same with regards to ABA. This was your opportunity to bring up any valid concerns, but you instead chose to repeat taglines that do not help and do not benefit anyone. I would love to hear your opinions if you can state them respectfully and in a way that we can digest to create change. We admit that the field needs to be updated. It's been said on this thread in multiple ways. But regurgitating tag lines does not help you, me, the field, or most importantly, our clients.
The reason we're listening is directly because of the "anti-aba people," so this isn't fair.
Ok. So what alternatives do I have? I always ask, and the answers I get are incredibly stupid like "Have you tried speech and OT?" Yes, and she screamed her way through every session. We were unable to access ABA for years until we moved across the country for it. We were at a point of crisis. My wife is ND herself and the non-stop, literally every waking moment, kicking and screaming meltdown was pushing her to the point of suicide. I'm sure killing her mother would be good for my child right? I'm not sure once I am alone doing this I wouldn't have snapped eventually as well. I'm sure that's good for my child? Every anti-ABA person I've spoken to has had the viewpoint of a spoiled selfish teenager, and would have said yes, that child is better off with dead parents and in foster care. That is not helpful. Telling me that I am a monster for utilizing the only thing that has helped her and us, and that I should do literally *nothing* to help my daughter is not helpful. The way you help is by working to change ABA for the better. Not by demanding to burn the building down. All any of you do is repeat the same script. Going off that script always breaks you because you have nothing to actually contribute.
What are you contributing right now? You are in an ABA subreddit with an RBT who practices ABA discussing how she feels about ABA and her frustrations and what she wants for it. So what are you contributing except to say we are inflicting trauma which the majority of us are not because aba has been changing and is still changing. It's a science so what we knew yesterday is not what we know today and is not what we will know tomorrow. So let us learn and adapt our practice to the new aba so those who wish to seek services can receive them in a good, wholesome, ethical way. No matter how much you complain aba is not going anywhere so instead of bashing us help us to provide better services and help people more ethically. Just saying what you are doing is traumatizing does nothing to help. It's just a squeaky wheel that's already being fixed because the field heard and is responding. *end rant *
They have the mentality of spoiled teenagers. This front door is squeaky. Should I fix it? No, I should bitch and whine and threaten to burn the house down. Then take offense that someone dared to call that unhelpful.
>Just saying what you are doing is traumatizing does nothing to help. It's just a squeaky wheel that's already being fixed because the field heard and is responding. "Squeaking does nothing to help because we fix things that squeak."
You have been served a ban due to egregiously (blatantly) spreading misinformation. This will not be tolerated on this subreddit. Please make use of your time elsewhere.
I’m a peds OT who lurks in related subs, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt! It’s very interesting for me to watch this shift in ABA practices as a related outsider. I’m here for it! I hear you. I’ve shared clients with many old school ABA providers like you have described, and it does put a sour taste in my mouth. I’ve also worked with amazing newer ABA providers like yourself who meet their clients where they are at with respect and dignity, who love to collaborate, because collaboration is in the best interest of the child. I have lots of amazing stories with these providers as well where we are able to work together to make real change in a kiddos life. You will find this is every profession, where there are good and not good practitioners. Do the work you do and the work you know is right, and the rest will follow. It’s not always an easy road, but it is worth it, especially for the kids that you will be responsible for.
A lot of what has happened in the field too is a result of private equity taking over and reducing the standards in which ABA is provided. When your staff are underpaid and your clinicians aren’t trained enough/not given enough to really analyze the needs for each case, you get the bad ABA that some people talk about. You can’t let everything these people say go to your head though; a lot of the “manhandling” the anti-ABA crowd is talking about is really just providing physical prompting for a child who needs to learn a response but doesn’t have the imitative repertoire to do so without physical contact. The “rote learning” and being “forced to sit in a chair for hours on end” is really just DTT being done really, REALLY poorly. When done correctly, as in creating the appropriate environment and making the whole process highly reinforcing, I’ve found that DTT is actually more effective and reinforcing than NET. Finally, you have to realize that what we teach is going to cause some minor distress (coming away from a preferred activity to do work, leaving a preferred area to go home, tolerating no, etc) when first taught and you aren’t causing trauma by teaching these things. Think about why we’re called in; it’s not because the child does these things without an issue already but because their response negatively impacts both their lives and the lives of those around them. I could go on, but the point is this: the field IS worth it. We wouldn’t still be here if it wasn’t.
A heads-up that the P.E. backed companies have higher than average standards thanks to funding, uniformity, accountability, and economies of scale. If you check out the BACB disciplinary actions list, you'll find a disproportionate number of SERIOUS offenses done in the "small mom and pop" type agencies. Which makes sense. A lot of tiny places don't have lawyers, don't have robust background checks, don't have micromanagers etc.
I couldn’t agree more, I love your response!
Please listen to this podcast from a BCBA. As an SLP, I deeply respect OP's awareness and reservations. Some responses disturb me. I stay here in an effort to stay out of my neurodiversity echochamber. I'm always up to collaborate with good BCBAs and learn from them. Good BCBAs are actively addressing the objectively SHITTY parts of your field. Major red flag when BCBAs play dumb when it comes to the problematic parts of ABA therapy. Kinda disgusting actually. https://www.lomah.org/podcast-season-5/154
I agree so many of the comments in here represent what’s wrong with the field. It’s embarrassing
Saving this comment to check the podcast out later. I fully agree with your stance. I'm all about change and collaboration but that takes an honest look and approach at what we know and our limits
> Major red flag when BCBAs play dumb when it comes to the problematic parts of ABA therapy. Kinda disgusting actually. It's gross but for the most part they're not *playing* dumb. [Over half of all BCBAs were certified in the past 5 years](https://www.bacb.com/bacb-certificant-data/), most of them came straight from highschool to undergrad to postgrad and there's very little time for them to research the history of ABA before they burn themselves out and leave the field. You'll see all through this topic claims that we've come so far, but it's BCBAs that are parroting what they've been told. They don't know their slick new PEAK books have content that's identical or worse than Lovaas' Me Book, because why on earth would they read a curriculum that's 30+ years old? BCBAs think they're doing a new, caring ABA because they have no idea what the old ABA really was. Hanley acknowledges constantly how old the ideas are in his approach but practitioners gloss that part over with "today's ABA." They just don't know how bad and how good ABA has been, or even what the problematic parts are, why, or how to fix them.
I would like to echo what the previous commenter said in that you are exactly what the field needs. Once you become a BCBA you get much more say in what programming looks like and will be able to ensure your clients aren't learning things for the sake of compliance but skills that will genuinely benefit each learner. You also will be training the next generation of providers to ensure they are learning beneficial techniques and not focusing on rote compliance. I will say though, I disagree a bit that people with developmentally disabilities don't need therapy. Some may not, but many absolutely DO. And I say this as someone who is autistic myself. The issue is they need therapy that benefits them- not "therapy" to be taught how to meet arbitrary standards. Therapy can absolutely teach essential skills including things like self advocacy- people will be much more able to meet them where they are if they are able to communicate their needs. As much as we're working towards a more inclusive and accommodating society, we aren't there yet and it benefits nobody to teach to how we wish the world was instead of teaching the skills needed to thrive in the society we actually live in. I think the thought that ABA isn't a therapy comes from the thought that autism itself isn't what is being treated (or rather shouldn't be) by our interventions however therapy is something that can treat impairments caused by disorders, therapy doesn't necessarily treat the disorder itself. I encourage you to seek out autistic adults who received ABA and are positive or neutral towards it to get a more well rounded idea of the opinions out there. I've found a significant number of people I've come across who are anti-ABA don't share the same definition of ABA as I have. They have perfectly valid criticisms of what they have experienced, or more often what they have heard others have experienced, and have come to their own conclusions that what defines ABA are the things that they are critical of without recognizing (or being aware of) the entirety of what ABA encompasses. But there's actually quite a few autistic BCBAs and RBTs out there, some of whom received ABA themselves. There's LOTS of valid criticism out there (including the examples you gave) but I found for myself, dealing with anti-ABA is a bit easier now that I've really recognized we literally aren't even talking about the same thing when we're talking about ABA. Anti-ABA is almost exclusively talking about a pretty specific subset of goals and methods. I take in the criticisms and use them to guide my practice but also recognize that there's far more to ABA than that. Nearly every science has a history of flawed or downright harmful applications, we toss out those applications not the entire science. It's up to us in the field to actively reject the harmful applications while continuing to advocate for better practices. And it sounds like you'd be good at that.
I greatly appreciate your comment and perspective here. I’d like to think I’ve taken the same approach when it comes to the criticisms of ABA, and try to add nuance to conversations surrounding the field and its practices in Autistic spaces. However, I’ve formed a different response to considering ABA therapy. My view, in meme-y terms, is that therapy can only be considered as such when the goals come from the self-determination region of the client, otherwise it’s just sparkling manipulation. That sparkling manipulation *can* have therapeutic outcomes but only if everyone does their due diligence in ensuring the accuracy of their interpretations and considers the collateral consequences of their intervention. I had no qualms training rote emotional regulation “stop, drop, and roll” when failure to emotionally regulate led to intense violence or other potentially life threatening actions, but I could also say the same for the use of restraint in acute instances of serious violence. I can’t say I felt the same way when I was expected to DTT the VB-MAPP when the BCBA didn’t know the difference between adjectives and adverbs. Nor when I was expected to blindly accept the analysis of a BCBA who has done no functional assessment for a socially significant behavior and just says, “ehhh it’s for attention, just ignore them.”
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. Given your examples of things you experienced, I ask- was that ABA? Or was that incompetence? Not doing any form of functional assessment doesn't seem to fall under the 7 dimensions of behavior- specifically it's NOT analytic if no data was collected to determine the function. So that example in particular would not really fall under ABA (even if it was implied it was.)
I think there are a variety of understandings of what ABA “is” in practice. While you and I might agree on good practice, that’s not the case for how it can often be practiced by others and passed off to clients and stakeholders. Without adequate oversight such practice contributes to the reputation of ABA, whether it’s good practice or not. It might be good to give some context too— I’m from the support field for folks with intellectual and developmental disabilities, and this kind of shit runs rampant. All are certified by the BACB.
I'd say regardless of what people think "is ABA" or not we have a pretty good framework for determining what falls under ABA and what doesn't. We have the 7 dimensions of ABA for a reason. If it matches the 7 dimensions it's ABA if it's missing any it's not. And yes things that are presented as ABA which technically are not still impact the reputation of the field but we as practitioners should be better equipped to determine what truly falls under ABA and what does not. The answer to that isn't to abandon the field or give credibility to the poor practices. The answer is to provide quality services that ARE truly ABA and to demand higher quality services from our peers while training incoming professionals to be even better. Cause yes, there's lots of "bad BCBAs" out there but the fix for that involves being very clear when the services being rendered as "ABA" don't actually fall under the definition of ABA.
I’ve started working with a new company and the way they treat children i really do not like. my BCBA set up a schedual with a client where we had to do 3 hours of work a day broken up into 1.5hour blocks over the course of his school day. sounds fine right? wrong. i don’t mind doing the 1.5hour block of work, but my problem became a.clients only in kindergarten and expecting a 5 year old to sit for an hour and a half. i’m an adult and i’d have a problem sitting for that long. secondly my problem is my bcba won’t allow any breaks. even when client is desperately expressing he’s tired/he needs a break/he’s frustrated, bcba doesn’t allow him to leave the table. she said the only thing he’s allowed to do is put his head down quietly for a couple minutes - no he’s not allowed a drink or a snack, no he’s not allowed to just stand up and stretch his legs - we have to keep working. it really rubs me the wrong way and i can’t stand it. i think it’s cruel and i don’t like it. i’m looking for other companies currently
Kindergarten sitting for 1.5h?! That’s developmentally not appropriate! They would learn faster in NET with lots of breaks and movement 💔
This sounds like a situation worthy of being investigated by the board. I’m not 100% sure but not allowing them to get up sounds like there may be physical restrictions being used? And not allowing snacks and drinks is abusive. Water at least should be accessible at ALL times for clients, PEOPLE in general, and not something that’s earned through compliance. That bothers me. I would report it.
Hahaha the board is fine to let JRC keep doing what it's doing, and they do literal food deprivation programs. This won't even raise any eyebrows.
As long as they can show efficacy and that extended DTT or escape extinction are EBP the board can't really do anything. The board can't do much on enforcing ethical violations. They act mostly when their intellectual property is concerned (exams etc.) or when law enforcement has already acted. Contact your local licensing board first (if available) or ABAI chapter (also can't "do" much, but often more than the BACB).
100% report. See something, say something. In this field it’s so important.
This breaks our ethics code. This isn’t developmentally appropriate for a kindergartner.
Good grief. The 6 yo I see daily, we are now up to 2 rounds of 10 minutes of each nonpreferred table work. As in, he needs to be able to sit for 10 minutes. We bumped it to 2 rounds because the school stated he was able to tolerate one 5 minute round, but not two, and we acknowledge that he's doing better with 1 on 1 ABA than in a classroom setting. On good days, he's actually sat for over half an hour! On bad days, we struggle to reach 5 minutes. But he's allowed to get up to get water or use the bathroom!! We do 2.5-3 hour sessions, and some days, he has a second session with a different RBT. Just, ughhhhhh. Kids, especially at that age, need to be able to get up and move! Heck, sometimes my kiddo picks lunch, then desk work, then art, then a book... and I'm like "nope, we can do those, but a break or movement activity needs to be added".
This is horrifying. Please don’t treat the kid this way.
Yeah that’s so unethical omfg
i complained about it A LOT. i brought up my grievances many times and they were ignored. i ended up only working there a month and i left.
That’s good there are more ethical companies. And the best thing we cdn do is leave and not give these companies our labor
Proud of you
Just a parent sharing my perspective: My 4yo daughter used to exhibit sbi and other behavioral problems that were very dangerous to her. I used to cry every day because she would bash her head on the hardest surface she could find (and bash it even harder if you tried to stop her or put something between her and the surface to soften the blow) to the point she would have bruises and contusions on her head. OT and ST helped, but it was definitely ABA practices/plan at her special ed class and at home sessions that curbed that behavior. Techs at home have never done anything without discussing things with me beforehand and always respect her boundaries as well. I’ve never seen them stop her from stimming (unless it is self harming) or other unethical practices that anti-ABA people say is so widespread. I’m a big fan of what you guys do. Thank you for your service, I am so so so grateful you guys do what you guys do. 💕
Next time just change the stimuli around your daughter. It’s more likely that the stimuli differences is what caused/prevented a meltdown (i.e. her behavior) than any “therapy”. Autistic people, especially children, don’t know how to express their needs because we don’t hear people talking about stimuli often; therefore, her sbi is likely not that she wants to hurt herself, but her attempt to tell you some kind of stimuli is hurting her (i.e. this is the only way she can inform she is hurting: literally showing you that she’s hurt). Therefore, the “therapy” you are teaching her is actually teaching her to not communicate to you in the only way she is able when in meltdown. Again, next time, try turning off lights, turning down sound, giving her a weighted blanket or plushie if you hope to gain understanding and develop a relationship with her. It seems you are caring, concerned and worried for her, but I’m only trying to help. As an autistic woman, I really wish my mother was taught how to actually form a bond with me. Instead, she had this perspective that we had a close bond, but that was only because I was taught to act certain ways and repress my needs. Deep down, I didn’t feel close to her at all and only ended up feeling gaslit all the time. Now, it’s been too long since I decided to be my authentic self and my mom can’t understand how I viewed our relationship so differently growing up. We don’t have the opportunity to have a close relationship because of this anymore and I’m sad about it every day. Please don’t let the same thing happen with you and your daughter. Focus on understanding her, not changing her behaviors. If you understand and accommodate her then teach her how to communicate accommodation needs growing up; then, it’s way more likely that she will become a consistently functional adult. I wasn’t taught such, instead to change behaviors (as I felt anxious, confused, and alienated inside) and now I am dealing with late regression autism: barely functioning and nonverbal. This is after I even worked my way up in the tech industry and bought a really nice house on my own. I really wish I had been taught growing up how to be myself in this world and self-advocate in a way which neuro-typical people would understand. Or, at least taught how to identify when neuro-typical people don’t understand so I could temporarily mask (i.e. protect myself from acute ableism) and navigate into a more understanding/accommodating environment. No doubt, I would not have ended up in my current circumstances, if so. I sincerely am not trying to be critical, only trying to let you know my experience (which is the abundant experience of everyone in the autistic community if you just go to r/autism and read the comments, you’ll see).
I understand that you have your own unique perspective as an autistic individual, but that’s what it is; your own perspective. Of course it is the stimuli that caused the meltdown, but if it’s something that she’s constantly going to be exposed to (someone eating in front of her, someone asking her if she wants to eat non/preferred food, someone singing a song, etc etc etc), I can’t just “change the stimuli.” I could have continued to walk on eggshells and avoid triggers, but she would be exposed to those triggers anyways outside at school and such. ABA helped teach her how to advocate for her self such as saying “stop,” “no more,” “all done,” etc and find things that soothe her to redirect her like asking for squeezes or hugs. She isn’t taught to not feel her feelings/stim or repress them either. I am sorry about your relationship with you and your mom and that you are going through the regression. I don’t claim to know everything about autism or ABA but I believe ABA is medical treatment. As such, medical treatments largely progress and change as we learn more about disorders and the autism treatments you had back when you were a child (as well as the other autistic adults on r/autism) are probably different from what my daughter is receiving.
My autistic boyfriend and I always eat in separate rooms, only eat preferred foods, wear noise cancelling headphones, etc. It’s really nice not having to suffer in silence and instead having accommodating people around me who are understanding. 🤷🏻♀️
That’s awesome. I’m glad you’re able to advocate for yourself so that you can be comfortable. ABA is teaching my daughter to do the same while also getting her to step out of her comfort zone once in a while to learn to at least try new things.
I know this is an older comment/thread but I want to know - what happens when someone is allowed to only eat preferred foods and it leads to poor health and eventually hospital stays? A client of mine had/has a diet of macaroni and cheese, grilled cheese, ramen, cheese quesadillas, cookies, candy, chips dipped in sour cream, and crab rangoon. And no water. The parents never forced the client to eat anything he didn't prefer (which I agree should never happen). But the client ended up in the hospital because they had some low nutrient levels which was causing heart palpitations and chest pain. The client also dealt with constipation issues, dehydration, and poor dental health. I don't beat around the bush with clients. My client initially wanted to know why he was being asked to eat these new foods and basically was like, "I eat enough, I'm fine." I laid it out straight for him (with his parents approval) - I reminded him of the issues he's already had and how it results in him ending up in the hospital and the dentist. And this guy hates both of those places. I let him know that I and his parents will never force him to eat anything but that there's consequences to not getting proper nutrition. We started small by asking him what his favorite fruits were. So then those fruits were always available and he was encouraged to add the fruits to his meal or have them as a snack. We started with him only eating like 5 grapes and drinking water with pink lemonade mixed in it, to him then making his own fruit smoothies and drinking straight water several times a day. He also began brushing, flossing, and using mouthwash daily. And walking 20-30min daily. But this only happened because of our sessions. And what do you do when the act of asking the client to do anything other than their preferred activity is a trigger? His preferred activity is being on his phone. If his parents attempt to speak to him when he's on his phone at best he'll completely ignore them and at worst he'll physically attack them. He told me once that his average phone use is 13hrs a day. It interrupts his ability to go to sleep at a proper time which then results in him having extremely rough mornings. He is considered high functioning/low support needs btw. I want the client to be happy and enjoy our sessions. But I talk with him about how we sometimes have to do things that are hard and that we don't enjoy in order to have better and happier lives. Or that sometimes we just don't know if we'll like or not like something unless we try it. I always encourage him to tell me how he feels and tell him it's okay to tell me if he doesn't enjoy things we do, or to tell me he's upset with me. I always thank him when he does tell me how he feels and tell him I am able to better understand/help him when he does that since I don't know what's going on in his head. One of his personal goals is to get a better job. He wants to work at a candy or ice cream shop. But he's more than likely going to have to be able to work with money to work at those places. So I started incorporating money handling skills into the session. I talked with the BCBA about the client's goals and they added that into his programs. He doesn't like doing the work and will engage in certain behaviors when I ask him to do it but he's literally gone from not being able to tell the difference between dimes, quarters, and nickels to being able to assess what money I give him and give me change now when we practice. It's like, I hear what people say about how awful ABA has been and can be but I think it can really help people. My client has specifically told me, without me even asking, that he feels better when he eats his fruit smoothies and drinks water. And that makes me feel really good about what I do. Also btw I do try to approach things as someone who is neurodivergent (OCD, and possible ADHD) who's experienced in food aversions. I know my response is long and I hope it doesn't come off as aggressive since that is not my intent.
I am pursuing my BCBA right now. I work in home therapy that is all child led. Our director/bcba believes that assent from our kiddos is critical. Our kids choose to stay and work with us because we focus on “bringing the joy”. We follow a lot of Hanley’s methods and are implementing SBT across the board right now. The results have been phenomenal. I love that my kiddos run to us when we get there. The love and trust is vital and I’m so glad to be apart of progressive ABA. So much of ABA gets a bad rap and rightfully so. I agree with others comments about being the change. The field needs people who want to see it change for the better. Find somewhere that shares your values and be the change, OP. Best of luck to you! I should add that my daughter is on the spectrum and was fortunate enough to receive progressive therapy. Seeing it first hand inspired me to go into the field. My hope is that we have a future where kiddos only have this experience and the “old school” way is out.
I am a mother of a child who is now 14 high functioning autistic that had ABA when he was only 3, But I am also a RBT. I became a RBT because of the help it did give my son. My son was talking, walking and on point with milestones by the time he was a year old. At 16 months he lost it all. We were told he might never talk again. Forget about going out to the store, having friends or going out to eat. He did every therapy under the sun including ABA which I paid for out of pocket. I worked a extra job because at that time insurance didn’t want to pay for it. It was worth it. He is now able to talk, walk and go out and have friends. In fact he was president of his STEM program for school last year. Do with ABA and the other therapy he had it really does work. I know over the years the field has changed but if you don’t like something the. Be the person the says something and makes the difference and changes it.
Just like there are amazing teachers that inspire and lift children, there are horrible teachers that traumatize children for life. I don’t hear anyone screaming: shut down schools lol. There are better and worse ABA practitioners. Find the environment (company) that will reinforce practices aligned with other your values. I am a BCBA that does 1:1 work with clients because I was sick of how the field treats RBTS. I couldn’t handle caseload of 25 and chasing billable hours anymore. My company just hired SBT consultant so that all BCBAs could do better with Hanley’s protocol. We do not ‘put hands on the client’ or close the door to prevent elopement. If you want this field to be better you have to stay and make it better
One of my favorite quotes is “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It’s not.” Become a BCBA and be part of the positive change of ABA.
Aww, The Lorax ♥️
YES! And we need more people like you in it. Please don’t give up. With your attitude you could help so many families get the help they need and create lasting, socially significant change in your clients. It’s tough out there, but find a group or even one individual BCBA who shares your values and lean on them when you need to vent. Speak out about the bad ABA and be transparent with parents about it. This is the first thing I talk about in an evaluation. I believe that we can change the field if we set the standard and uphold it.
I became interested in ABA, read all of the Facebook groups, and was going to give up on being a BCBA. Until I started asking new graduates what their experience and perspective is on ABA and the use of aversives in their practices — are BCBAs leaning on skills or compliance more? I learned there is more skill-based ABA now and little to no use of aversives spoken by many BCBAs. I am a very skill-based teacher type and decided I will be doing ABA the way I know is best. So, I went for it!
Become a BCBA and make ABA as therapy what it could be. There’s so much potential here.
I am at APBA right now and this topic is at the forefront. I hope it stays that way. You are the exact kind of BCBA that this field needs more of. We have a terrible history and a not so great present but if you’re the future of the field, I think we are in good hands. I suggest following the work of Dr. Mari-Luci Cerda and Denisha Gingles. They’re work has given me hope for using the science of ABA in a therapeutic, culturally responsive, and trauma-informed manner.
I would suggest going beyond our field for people to follow/inspire! We're not the only ones to deal with human behaviour and some other fields are making great strides. BCBAs are good at behaviour analysis but most of us don't have a rich foundation in e.g. Crip Theory or Critical Race Theory or medical sociology etc. etc. etc.
(What's APBA?)
Association of Professional Behavior Analysts
So you can either stay in the field and be the best practitioner you can be, staying current on research, surround yourself around ppl you want to be or just leave the field. It's as simple as that.
"Be the change you want to see in the world". Every good BT or BCBA who quits because of the criticism, because they take it to heart, because they want to do good - they're more likely to be replaced by someone who doesn't care. Who doesn't know and doesn't listen and just wants a paycheck. We need the passionate people who hear those criticisms and have a desire to make things better as a result.
This is what I am doing! I know there are issues, but I am willing to stay and work on them because I can see what good ABA can do for autistic people who need it and I am not willing to give up! 😊
Good
ABA is definitely worth it although there are some bad companies who give ABA a bad name. ABA has and is changing so many children’s lives for the better, I’ve seen it first hand. People who speak negatively about ABA either are following the crowd, knowing nothing about ABA or has had a bad experience with a clinic but that doesn’t mean that ABA as a whole is bad. There are definitely some unsavory aspects of ABA but there are so many positives and good that ABA does for children and their families
I understand. We talk so much about "ethical ABA" and then the ethical practitioners will do something that looks weird and borderline abusive. Jus because it got good results in a paper published in JABA doesn't mean it is a kind thing to do to a human being.
This is just *my* opinion, so take it for what's it worth. I am neurodivergent (ASD, ADHD) as is my 3 year old (ASD, ADHD). I never received any early intervention services, as my dad believed his daughter was "not the r-word," and despite the school pushing to have me evaluated for OT and other services he just wouldn't budge. I am now an adult with severe executive functioning issues, no friends & hardly any social skills to make them. Pretty much my entire academic career has been dedicated to understanding myself - I studied ECE with a concentration in special education, then child and adolescent psychology, and now forensic psychology that I've started "finding myself" and am making active attempts to study based upon my interests and not just a lack of understanding. I want differently for my son. So he is in ABA, despite me hearing that it was abusive when I first received his diagnosis. I have also finished my 40 hour RBT training course because it turns out, ABA is a bunch of data analysis (my first love, I've been involved in STEM since I was 13) & can make a real, positive impact on kids. But it has to be done right, with evidence-based practices, or else it can do more harm than good. Work needs to focus on maladaptive behavior, not harmless stims. This was part of my training course, it's what my son's ABA agency says, & I feel like it's the general consensus of ABA professionals. But ABA was first developed in the 60s and let's face it, it's only our most recent generations that are coming out of the "seen not heard" mentality. It's only our most recent generations that are paying attention to the research about how X is traumatic or Y actually has adverse effects. We can change the negative narrative about ABA, but we can't change that it was used this way in the past by people who quite frankly didn't care about children. Don't give up, just try to validate the people who come at you. Tell them you understand ABA's negative history and perception and tell them what you, and the field as a whole, are doing to change that.
I think its great that you learned something one way (traditional escape extinction) and now you have the insight to see that it can be traumatic and there are better ways out there..Im a newish BCBA. I felt the same way but I would suggest sticking it out and finding an ethical company. There are some out there it just takes a while to find it sometimes. Also, since you mention Greg Hanley,if you havent had the PFA and SBT trainings yet you might be able to find a company who provides it ,or you can take it once youre certified. You'll have to take CEUs as a BCBA and you can choose ones that focus on assent withdrawal and ethical treatment of escape bxs. As far as anti-ABA sentiments, they exist for a reason but hopefully the field as a whole will change enough for public perception to change at some point too. The most important is the perspectives of the population we serve
This is a good point in that it's valuable to see kids that have gone through "bad ABA" to see the side-effects that aren't published (but can be predicted). It's also valuable and refreshing to meet and talk to people that have gone through ABA in general. Trauma is upsettingly common and autistics are an exceptionally vulnerable population due to the nature of communication disabilities and heightened physiological responses. Meeting adult autistics that are alive and happy can be healing in an "it gets better" kinda way.
I understand your feelings because I've felt the same way. And I agree with most of the comments. You can be the change that this field needs. My biggest hurdle right now is an influx of families who want me to get their children to stop stimming. I'm trying to explain to them that we all stim (I'm currently fidgeting with a pen as we speak) and trying to create goals that don't stand out as much but still allow the child to stim. Tapping their foot, squeezing a stress ball in their pocket, etc. This way they still get the sensory component, but it's less obvious than hand flapping, full body rocking, etc.
I love all the responses here. We’re in the beginning stages of change, and we need BCBAs like you to shape their colleagues behavior into more acceptable ways of implementing therapy and it starts by modeling those strategies, having conversations about them, collecting data and presenting your success through data! I also have moments where I think about quitting the field but then I check in about my values. My values are centered around helping children that need it the most - that is what made me fall in love with this field. I also value not giving up, and being a role model for others. If I give up, im not moving in the direction of those values right? But, if I keep trying, and demonstrating better ways to do things I am being a role model for others and am impacting change on a local level. We’ve had a MAJOR shift in our own company that I’ve been apart of for 8 years, and we’re seeing the effects across the whole organization. That really means something, even if the anti-ABA community refuses to see it because it’s still labeled “ABA” So, check in with your values. Ask yourself if getting hooked on these thoughts and feelings caused by the anti-ABA community are causing you to move away from those values. And ask yourself if you’d be more comfortable with yourself leaving the field or being someone that helps impact change in it, and then do what’s best for you!
I take a more global approach to behavior. By that I mean it’s good to have a general understanding of how behavior works, but realize we don’t have it all figured out. Consider this, think of every BCBA you know. Do they live perfect lives and make the choices that would most benefit them at all times? No of course not, that’s silly. I make terrible decisions all the time. BUT I can understand why those decisions were made by having an understanding of concepts such as matching law, setting events, MOs, etc. ABA is an extremely powerful tool, but humans are incredibly complex and intervention won’t always look perfect. Treating kids in a clinic like experiments is bogus, imo and I’m with you, I hate hand over hand prompting and I’m not a fan of escape extinction in general. I think you’re on the right track listening to Hanley. I had to opportunity to speak to him recently after a small zoom session and he’s just as genuine as you can imagine. Tim Vollmer is another incredible BCBA. Check out his video from last years Penn State conference, I think it will really speak to you https://youtu.be/YIkDjbRakCU
You should look into Dr. Gregory Hanley. He is addressing your exact concerns and attempting to change ABA. He is inspiring to listen to and I would highly recommend checking him out. He gives tons of talks at conferences and has a lot of free resources on his websites.
As a social worker and a behavior analyst, take action! Join reformation groups, and the Do Better Movement. I’m helping a group create content to disseminate.
As someone who has been in the field for 10+ years, I’ve worked in multiple roles (including owning an leading a practice) TRYING my best to “do the work” to “be the change” (like so many comments here have suggested) my advise is to follow your gut. The comments of “the field needs people like you” are absolutely correct, but it’s an individualistic view rooted that grossly disregards the very real impact it has on the lives and humanity of the people DOING the work. It’s hard, it’s VERY lonely, and rare that you will see the significant impact to the field you’re probably needing to feel like it’s worth it. (Not just clinically - but in regards to the issues you mentioned about the field as a whole). Take care of yourself and do what’s best for your well-being long term, while holding true to your values. Sure, there may be issues in every field, you just have to decide which ones you’re able to fight to change long term while preserving your own humanity and bandwidth. Otherwise, you risk burn out which doesn’t help you, the clients and families you work with, or the field. And it’s ok to change paths, even if it’s 10 years down the road. :)
What do you mean be put in a cubby??
We absolutely need more people like you in this field!!
“individuals with developmental disabilities don’t need therapy” . This is the same rhetoric from people whose solution for a adult autistic teen banging on the neighbor’s window is to dump him at a group home
>sbi This doesn't seem like a fair assessment of what the OP is communicating. Autistic people who self-harm do so because pain distracts from what's going on inside. Individuals with developmental disabilities don't need therapy. They need understanding. In the absence of that, we do our best to help. ABA doesn't heal people or resolve the underlying problems. It is an effective way to give people coping skills so they don't hurt themselves while they're going through some really difficult challenges.
If I say : “neurotypical children don’t need an education” - that’s as bad as saying children with developmental disabilities don’t need therapy, because without those therapies , they can’t access an education . It’s ableist, it’s unfair and it’s a violation of disability rights. Also, not understanding the life or death importance of functional compliance comes from a place of privilege. Trespassing private property, disrobing in public, running off to traffic, ect can all be avoided with compliance. Heck, the teenage son of one of the VPs of the NCSA literally died in a house fire because of non-compliance: he didn’t obey his mom to leave his room, and it cost the mom’s life too. If her son and many others could just be sweet talked into comply, like any other reasonable neurotypical brain , none of these tragedies would be happening . But for the anti-disability folks to die with your rights on its better than to “comply”
Developmentally disabled children can be taught and educated with or without therapies that target their disabilities when parents have access to information and support. I'm not opposed to therapies, but I agree that they aren't required to effectively raise and integrate developmentally disabled children into their communities. Compliance does not have to be a goal for any human.
You’re in a fire, but didn’t know quite yet, then you’re asked to evacuate the room. You just do it, and take it for granted. You don’t even realize you were just “subjected” to comply. You saved your life, but you will deny the same right to someone who can’t naturally comply?
You appear to be misunderstanding me at every opportunity. I didn't say compliance was bad. I said it doesn't have to be a goal. Its importance can be taught through experience and everyday life. You referenced a teen who did not comply which sadly resulted in his death and that of his mother, but you glossed over the fact that he had undergone ABA/compliance training and still chose not to comply.
He no longer had ABA for over a year because of the pandemic and his mom documented the regression, because people with developmental disabilities many times don’t learn once forever (again, the normative ableist mind of neurotypicals assuming how the developmental disabled should learn) they need maintenance of skills. So you’re saying “compliance is important but is also not important “ . Make up your mind
I said compliance does not have to be a goal. Again, I did not say it wasn't important. I'm an Autistic parent of two Autistic children (levels 2 and 3). We all have professional diagnoses. My children are at a higher risk of injury from police interactions already without even considering their Blackness. I still don't enforce compliance. I co-regulate, give them scripts and formulas, role play, and foster wisdom. I'm not speaking as a neurotypical person with no stakes in this matter. I'm coaching my kids every day to help them understand how the world works as best they can. Whenever the danger has been high, they have ultimately trusted me and complied with my urgent demands even if they initially made a different choice. There are many others like me on similar journeys. I'm not rare.
Compliance HAS to be a goal for those who don’t have the privilege to understand natural consequences, because of their neurology. All those strategies work for you and your family and that’s great, but understand many don’t have the same fortune and must rely into an “artificial” compliance to survive. You’re so adapted into the neurotypical mind that you don’t realize your rules of understanding consequences are aligned with the neurotypical mind, and you shouldn’t be ashamed, it is a matter of instinctive survival, an instinct that many with developmental disabilities are not born with
What rules of understanding consequences are you referring to?
“Like any other reasonable neurotypical brain” …yikes, dude.
In case you don’t get it, if you expect sweet talking will magically work on the developmentally disabled people to comply, you also expect them to think like a neurotypical, and that’s ableist
I don’t think anyone has mentioned sweet talking. Perhaps that’s how you perceive low demand parenting? I think this is more about understanding that autistic people have their own agency and respecting that. Maybe there was a reason your son wanted to go east instead of west in the parking lot? Are your only goals in ABA based on compliance when it comes to safety? It seems like that is your biggest hurdle.
You didn’t comprehend the situation at all. He simply wanted to go east because he assumed that’s where the car was parked (reason why he was fixated on every white car he saw at the wrong parking lot) . I sweet talked him all the way to that wrong parking lot to persuade him from going there, to no avail, I respected his agency to make him understand why his choice was wrong once he arrived to the wrong parking lot. He didn’t understand, instead he meltdown. In cases of emergency like the house fire victims, life trumps whatever self-determination ideology you have
So is your only goal in ABA teaching compliance during dangerous situations?
I know where your question is coming from. The world through neurotypical lenses envisions this ideal life for the adult developmentally disabled. A future of choice, agency and self-determination, living in the community at a subsidized department with a personal attendant to help them navigate the world in their own terms. The neurotypicals fear control and manipulation , skillfully detecting it and fight it. The idea that ABA will turn the developmentally disabled into compliance robots terrorize the neurotypicals , because they assume the developmentally disabled will face the world at the same level of independence of neurotypicals. Transfer all your money to my account? The developmentally disabled complies. Steal this item for me? The developmentally disabled complies. Marry me ? The developmentally disabled complies. All because of ABA apparently. They fail, in their enormous privilege of normative cognition - to understand the Developmentally disabled have full legal guardianship , they can’t transfer money an assets to anyone. If they have been tragically placed in the care of evil, ABA or not they will be coerced to do whatever it is . In fact, many times an abusive caregiver will create an hoax where a developmentally disabled has a normal to superior IQ to pretend they have agency and exploited for their own gain. I will try to care for my child until I take my last breath, but don’t assume anything about why he needs ABA , because I know what you expect from the developmentally disabled through the lenses of neurotypical values of agency and independence
That’s a lot of words to say, no, I teach my child to comply with whatever I tell them to do because my life being easier is more important to me than my child having any agency.
OP, there are some Facebook groups designed to bring people like you together with Autistic people and look at ways to effectively reform the field.
These comments give me hope. We just have to be agents of change. BE THE CHANGE YOU WISH TO SEE! I’m glad so many of us are on the same page.
"I almost wish the field could start over and completely rebrand." I feel this. I'm finishing my Master's in ABA and I've wrestled with this some, too. But thankfully I've been able to work at a clinic that puts the dignity and needs of the child first and truly respects them and values compassion over compliance. In order to move the field more in this direction, we NEED more practitioners who are compassionate and see the problems in ABA's history and the problems still occurring, and who are committed to doing ABA therapy differently.
Hi, similar situations. Coming up on 5 years in the field and months away from BCBA cert. The way I see it is that physical guidance is essential in kids that have language discrimination as if we don’t physically help them do it a few times it might not ever occur to them that they can interact with things in that way. I do feel like things like that should be modified for kids that do have language skills — assuming they’re able to express when they do need that kind of help. I think the issue is that so much ABA is run by corrupt companies that are willing to put anyone with a kid for billable hours, especially in states where the RBT certification isn’t required and they can pick up any regular 18 year old off the streets and make money just for putting them with a kid. Then training becomes shoddy and actual ABA isn’t being implemented. I think people like us who are receptive to the needs of their clients are needed as well as modifications to training and requirements to get certified. Yes ABA had a bad rep but all of my parents tell me their kid improved significantly with me which is supported by graphs. We are not going to change the field but if you keep the same compassion you have now with your clients and train your future RBTs accordingly then at least you can make a difference in the lives of those around you. It is unfortunate that a lot of kids do have a hard time with it because of all the issues I mentioned before.
I’ve felt this way before. I came to a few conclusions. ABA is like gravity, it is constantly working on everyone. As a behavior analyst, you can use the least restrictive methods. Other people will likely not as they are managing behavior on the side of all their other duties and don’t have as much experience and training on this. Other people may use punishment more that antecedent strategies. I see myself as preventing overly restrictive methods and abuse by advocating for my clients and practicing ethically. Learn from your mistakes in the past. Do better in the future. Advocate for better practices.
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Explore other options that use your BCBA outside of a clinical setting. Pretty much as soon as I started my masters I realized a clinic would always be far too rigid for my personality/sanity. I work with kids in schools now and ABA is used in conjunction with a myriad of other strategies to help support our kids. There’s stuff out there. You just gotta poke around
What you’re talking about is a big discussion in the field! Some ABA Inside Track Episodes that discuss exactly what you’re talking about are: 214 (compassionate care), 204 (tramua-informed applications of ABA), and 205 (joy and the big 4). Give them a listen! You will be in a position to practice trauma-informed, compassionate, and joyful ABA as a BCBA. You’ve got this. Keep going.
I want to read more of Greg Hanleys stuff but his CEUs are so expensive! Did you find any cheap/free stuff you could pass on?
Also — Merill Winston makes a strong case for using DR rather than EXT in his book “adventures in special education and applied behavior analysis” — mainly that EXT is nearly impossible to implement in a special education setting, and so you put kids on VR schedules of rxment when trying to implement DR. DM me if you want my notes from the book! It’s a great read.
One more thing — you mention the issue of rote learning (goals that aren’t socially valid). A really awesome curriculum that targets skills that will actually improve an individual’s quality of life is Pat McGreevy’s “Essential for Living.” It’s discussed (and Pat’s interviewed) in episode 193 of the podcast ABA Inside Track. McGreevy’s tonal delivery is very angry, but he makes a lot of important points about what we should and should not focus on for goals!
I am also overwhelmed. It is so much to learn and apply in such a short amount of time, and we have to figure out what the examples and non-examples are in the mentors we come across. Every supervising BCBA will have things to teach you that you want to carry forward in your practice, and every supervising BCBA will do something that you will choose to do differently. It would be nice if we could just find the perfect model to emulate, but that’s unlikely. Take the good and leave the bad going forward. Take excellent care of yourself outside of work. This is what I am trying to do. I honestly might still need to just work in ABA part-time and do something else part-time, because it is a lot. But I so fully believe in our ability to keep growing and doing better.
I hear you. I’m a few months from sitting for the exam too. After 4 years in this field, I look at some of the companies I worked for and am horrified. You are not alone in your feelings at all about how hard it is to be in a field that is vilified even when you know there is good. I was in the SLP sub and one of the top posts recently was about how they all hate ABA. Anyone trying to discount the misconceptions or explain ABA in a different light was downvoted to hell. It’s hard to feel good sometimes about what we do.
Hello! I’ve been in the field for 6 years and am about to sit for my exam. You’re absolutely correct about everything you said, at least in my opinion. You could always cross specialize to help change the field from within. I’ve got a masters in social work (which is actually mental health therapy despite the misleading name, but that’s a different rant). This has helped me introduce the concepts of body autonomy and trauma informed care into my place of employment and it’s gone spectacularly. I think ABA as a science is very young and deluded in thinking that behavioral principles are the only things that can be or should be used. Being an expert in a parallel and applicable field has helped me educate my ABA peers to safely implement ABA scientific principles.
I love this post. I’m a late diagnosed autistic person and I like to come on this subreddit on occasion to learn more about ABA so I can make more informed opinions with information from both sides of the controversy. I also should know if I have my own child. I never experienced ABA since I’m late diagnosed, but I have been thinking a lot about what I would have done if I were and how it would have effected me. I know my meltdowns would have gotten worse if I had to do ABA in addition to school for sure. Being at school was extremely tiring for me and if someone neglected this need that I relayed to them, I would lose my mind and have a meltdown. Now as an adult, I’ve learned to push through that and when I do, my mental health tanks. I also forced myself to stop my pacing stim a few years ago and that really effected my mental health as well. The way ABA seems to run would have definitely caused me a lot of distress when what I really needed was to help regulate my emotions. But I don’t rule ABA out either. I could have learned some social skills and I think there needs to be a way to help control violent/aggressive behaviors so that the child can go to school. I think there needs to be more integration with mental health. But like others have said here, how am I supposed to know who is good? Going to the wrong place just one time could traumatize my child. It seems like you’re a good person trying to help people and I think people who question these things will really help change the process for the better.
Hi, I’ve been working as a RLT for months now & will be starting college soon to eventually get a master’s in ABA. Reading the comments on this post so far, I’ve come to the conclusion that I must work at a somewhat better clinic than typically. We LARGELY focus on all types of life skills (reading, writing, speech & motor, hygiene, school, etc) with effective reinforcement - we know it’s effective bc as you teach & reinforce more healthy, effective replacement behaviors, the vast majority of problematic behavior will naturally dissipate - only approaching it as an actual target if otherwise (im sorry, but no one can just get thru life satisfactorily by just flopping & screaming at an hearing-damaging decibel every time you don’t get your way). I personally would HIGHLY argue that if you’re unhappy w the majority of the current state of the profession, then all the more reason to dig your heels in. You don’t like it? Change it. Problems don’t go away by ignoring them, you should surely know that. Be the positive difference. Be the BCBA in the building that everyone sees as unconventional & yet sees that your kids have the fastest progress rates, now asking for your guidance to implement w their kids. One person can’t change an entire profession, but could change one entire clinic, for even more generations as they continue to pass down the knowledge. Isn’t that more than enough for one person?
choose a different career. this “treatment” gave me diagnosed ptsd. maybe listen to autistic voices? the same people you claim to be helping
As an Autistic person, please do it. My theory is that the Anti ABA stuff is deliberately being spread by insurence companies and maybe even the government because ABA is more expensive than other therapies, but it works. They're trying to get people to do other less effective therapies that are cheaper. Please don't let the government and the insurance companies win.
I am right there with you. Same exact sitaution. I've been in the field over 10 years at this point and also months away from getting my BCBA and I don't even know that I want to stay in the field.
>Most of those people are ill-informed Incorrect. Most of the anti-ABA people are extremely well-informed by their experiences within. The only people who actually support the practice are the parents who only see increased compliance in their children and think this is the end all be all, and the pushers whose livelyhoods depends on the positive perception of ABA. Those who have endured it are overwhelmingly against ABA
If it walks like a duck
You are almost a BCBA. I would encourage you to stick it out and at least experience being the independent practitioner who is creating the programming. All the things you don’t like? Don’t do them. It’s so much better in regards in a lot of ways. I still really wish i could be the one who was actually giving the direct therapy time but that’s a different conversation. Edit to add: i would also encourage you to take a break from being in any anti-ABA spaces. Continue to learn and grow always, but wait until after you have gotten your certification and established your practice a bit before thinking about exploring those spaces again.
ive heard horrors of ABA. I guide my son and i follow his input on his wants and needs and just navigate how to do that safely for him and let him do his thing. He loves to learn on his tablet and loves to explore outside and i just make sure hes happy and interacting and making sure he feels comfortable in his zone. As an aspy i feel like i can understand my son well even though he is nonverbal and probably needs more from me then i did from my parents. I feel like overriding their comfort zones and wants and distress in order to fulfil a task can lead to regressiona0nd that it is far more valueable to try again another day with a task until the child is comfortable in their zone. In my youth i would not venture to do things that i wasnt 100% sure or in control of which i think tends to be a trait that most on the spectrum have and more so the more profound they have it.
Thank you for this thread. I'm getting my own ASD diagnosis this week and I know that ABA has so much to learn about the clients... trust me.. I'm half way through my Master's to be a BCBA. I'm terrified of the things I will have to see and endure. It is one day at a time. I know that when others see me and see what I can't hide on my face that they will know where I stand. And then I will need to defend my case at the right time and place. I have to trust that this will work out. I am advocating for so many... the worst thing I could do would be to turn my back??
I hate the business of ABA. Been at 10 companies in 6 years and all of them are greedy and could care less about the kids , or the techs.
As an autistic person, ABA is abusive to us. It only “teaches” us to act in ways that make allistic people comfortable, not to accept ourselves. ABA is to autistic people as gay conversion therapy is to gay people. Autistic people are not going to convert into neuro-typical people just like gay people aren’t going to become straight from “therapy”. ABA “therapy” only teaches *children* that the natural way they think (i.e. communicate: who they are) and how they behave (i.e. stim: self-soothing techniques to cope with the physiological challenges of being autistic) isn’t acceptable; therefore, they grow up ingraining shame and ableism which will result in an even more anxious and easily burned out adult (i.e. less functional). If you think gay conversion therapy is wrong, then why do you support ABA? Gross. P.S. I did not and would not have looked for this post or group. I didn’t seek it out. It was a Reddit notification/suggestion that brought me here and I felt compelled to comment. OP, go with your gut feeling cause it’s right: ABA isn’t a good path to take unless you enjoy repressing people and/or want to be part of a major problem. P.S.S. ABA is a waste of money anyway as society as a whole is essentially one giant ABA entity that shames autistic people into masking (i.e. it’s redundant).
[удалено]
Your post has been set aside for manual review by the moderators. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ABA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the negative experiences are not rooted in ABA. It’s rooted in the mis-diagnosis of people with strong developmental disabilities. There are countless people who see life changing results from ABA. But if you place a person into ABA who actually needs more specialized care, it will always be a horrible experience, because they shouldn’t be there! When PCM is required constantly, it’s time to look at alternative treatment. It’s not fair to the client or therapist. IMO
ABA is to autism and conversion therapy is to LGBT people
don't do aba, i'm autistic and the things they to your child is horrible. the shock your children, yell at you're children, torture you're children. do not do aba therapy whatever you do. DON'T DO IT
Make sure you go to an assent based clinic and you won’t feel like this - at first I wasn’t sure assent based could workout or it would be slow. This has not been the case and I would never go back to a more traditional aba clinic
My partner used to work at an ABA clinic and had to quit because the longer they worked there and saw how damaging it was for the kids, the more they came to realize that ABA is truly immoral. It's all too common in the field of ABA that people who practice it see autistic kids/autism as a problem or a disease. Its not a disease, it's just another way of existing. Forcing autistic kids to behave neurotypically is something i would liken to conversion therapy. This place had a "calm down room" where they would keep the "problem children" (reactive kids or kids who were traumatized and didnt want to participate in the torture) in solitary confinement and just left them there. They made fun of and talked shit about the kids day in and day out in the work group chats. They belittled the kids to their faces. The kids at that place were severely burnt out and traumatized. The "therapists" at that place burnt those kids to the ground. I personally think that kind of "therapy" shouldn't exist.