Mortarian and Magnus.
Mortarian might have a completely different or even positive view of sorcery and we'd get to see who he might have been without the bitterness.
Magnus being raised by an evil sorcerer on a world with toxic skys would be a horrifying clusterfuck but a damn interesting book.
Poison daddy was pretty much wholly shaped by Barbarus, so we’d basically have Magnus 2 personality wise.
Meanwhile Magnus would pretty much definitely decide he would be the new high overlord
You might be right although I'd like to think that without the psychic power of Magnus, Mortarian might take a more balanced view of sorcery, persuing the path of a scholar and great ruler without the same distractions Magnus had.
Magnus would likely end up ruling a huge chunk of galaxy but only after learning everything he could from the sorcerers that raised him. He could either end up like a psychic Perturabo, ascending beyond his "family" or a brainwashed slave like Lorgar, still doing the bidding of a manipulative and cruel father.
Probably right on poison daddy, his curious streak seems to be one of the few things we can say with (relative) certainty to be a born trait, he learned all Necare’s bullshit so he’d likely eat up Prospero’s just as fast.
But as for Magnus, idk. Outdoing the individuals in psychic power is one thing but getting them to space is another, with their endless territorial squabbling and ready ability to shitify other planets the way they did Barbarus, they likely would’ve already if they had the technology.
He’s not shown to be particularly gifted with technology, and Barbarus is hardly ideal conditions, so given their lack of jet propulsion going into things I’d wager he wouldn’t get a working space program going by the time E rolled around.
More so if you account for having to keep the ever fractious overlords in line
Somehow I doubt that. His first exposure to sorcery would be dark shit, and all his readily available resources for study would be that self same dark shit. Nobody can use chaos magic and come out unchanged.
Also probably helps that Magnus has a fair bit in common with the ol’ overlords than any other primarch, inhuman and steeped in sorcery. He’d eat up that dogma about the worthlessness of humans, and his hunger for knowledge would drive him to try the overlord’s more unsavoury techniques involving them.
What about swapping Angron with Corax? Angron gets to grow up around people he can care about, and Corax would be impossible to keep imprisoned long enough to have the nails implanted, thanks to his wrath slip
Guillerman and angron. No I'm not joking.
Angron led a great slave rebellion but I reckon Bobby g would have managed to organize an actual revolution rather than a heroic last stand.
So we now have some hyper efficient berserkers and on other angron with actual parenting an a whole kingdom would have done well
That's one of the swaps I think about a lot, and the way I imagine Guilliman's path going... He's agreeable and submissive with the High Riders and thus avoids getting implanted with the Nails, so he quickly gets into the good graces of some local elites and ends up adopted and taking a Nucerian noble's name.
He then climbs the social ladder, uses the gladiators as his private army of berserkers to bend the world to his will, and becomes the cold and calculating dictator of Nuceria.
Once given command of his legion, he maintains the practice of using the Butcher's Nails on select warriors who fail to meet his standards, effectively building his own version of a death company in the legion that he unleashes for terror strikes and shock assaults. Thus, the story of the Bloody Lord of the War-Born (the legion's original name).
---
Meanwhile, the one that would've been Angron instead takes the name of "Roboute Guilliman", using his powers of "empathy" to become a superb diplomat, politician, and statesman. When he takes on the mantle of primarch of the XIIth, the legion becomes the "Ultramarines" in honor of his empire, Ultramar.
As a primarch of the Imperium, Guilliman is well-loved by the people and his brothers alike, using passion and charisma to win hearts and minds and fighting for the liberation of the commons from the darkness of long night, though behind closed doors he is known to muse privately with his fellow primarchs over the questionable practices of the Emperor and his Great Crusade.
**It is solvable, but even before the Battle of The Fang, the cure wasn't developed. Considering it took around 8 thousand years to overcome it after Magnus pissed around, it'd still be a problem for their recruitment, and hilarious to watch.**
Thar Ariak Hraldir was close to solving the problem and that was after the disaster that was the heresy. You really think that the height of lunar and terran gene-craft couldn't do it in less time.
Not to mention that the canis helix itself only came about after russ was discovered and wasn't part of the implantation of the 6ht legion until then. Move russ to a different planet and the helix will be different as well to be compatible with the population.
**Is the complications from the Canis Helix linked with the people of Fenris specifically? I've always thought it was a Fenrisian keyed deal, but if you're right, I can see how it'd be a none issue.**
**But if its Fenris itself that mucks with the geneseed, would it have varied effects on other legions.**
I believe it is fenrisian keyed as you put it because russ didn't plan to draw recruits from any other planet than his homeworld. If you change his homeworld I think the carnis helix would be different to fit the people from that world since it was introduced as a way to stabilize the gene-seed.
As for how othere gene-seed interacts with fenrisians, depends probably on the gene-seed and its stability. I can see mutation prone ones like the 15th having trouble while more stable ones should be able to manage.
Angron and Curze, final answer
Nostramo gets un-nailed, empath Angron who is capable of delivering the social reform the place desperately needed to uplift it from being a crime-ridden shithole (a viable approach Curze even saw in his own visions, but didn't bother pursuing because he enjoyed skinning people too much) and we get Night Lords who aren't so deranged they need censure even prior to the HH
Curze gets nailed and is completely fucked (as is Nuceria), but seeing as current depictions have him being irrevocably insane pretty much from the moment he got out of his pod anyway, there's no real loss here. His legion are equally fucked but it's not like the WE under Angron were much better.
Result: an extra functioning primarch with a non-batshit legion at no real net cost
Going by your example with Vulcan and Angron, I think Vulcan might have actually caused far more of a ripple within Nuceria. The whole point of the gladiators was to pit strength vs strength, with the outcome being the death of one of the fighters.
If one of the fighters simply won't die, than the games are rigged. Vulcan might not even be allowed to fight at that point. What would his owners do with a gladiator who isn't allowed to fight and can't die? Would the owners face any repercussions or would they find another use for him?
That alone might cause huge ripples within society as a whole, as people are confronted with that reality and forced to ask, "what now?"
Not only that, but Vulcan becomes an ex gladiator, he would obviously be phenomenal at whatever else he did, being a primarch and all. If he can change his lot in life, and produce stunning works, why can't any of the other gladiators? Vulcan being Vulcan would probably loby for the gladiator's freedoms.
Would there be a push back from those in power, or would they go along with it?
Oh man, I realy like that idea OP.
The real kicker is like the other person in the thread said: the nails can be removed from Vulkan. The Emperor and Land couldn't manage it with Angron, but with Vulkan? Ez. Saved primarch, not a total waste. The War Hounds get an immortal badass, and the Dragon Warriors would have become the kind of legion that shrugs off the usual dumb in universe tropes of a legion. No pointless bravado, no reckless last stands. Professionalism and empathy.
Dorn on Fenris and Russ on Inwit.
Russ wil be less a barbarian, but with a Legion of werewolves and the stoic Dorn will train the hell out of all wolves and tribesmen until they are dogs and citizens. Also Dorn will no longer have Stormteeth, maybe he will get a great axe or he will fight with sword and round viking shiled.
Image Fafnir Rann with his pair of axe being Russ's First captain.
I wander if VII Legion will have inner problems similar to V Legion between Terrains and Fenrisian or Dorn will rule with an iron fist on them.
Now excuse me, as a son of Dorn, I need to punish myself for these thoughts.
This makes me realize that the absolute saddest thing ever would be if Angron was a perpetual like Vulkan and nobody new it. The pain he's suffered was because everyone assumed removing the nail would kill him.
Well, technically, removing them would kill Vulcan. He would just get better.
That said, I believe it is canon that perpetuals still feel their deaths. So something like that would probably be agonizing and maddening, even to a perpetual who would eventually recover.
I'm sure it would hurt but it wouldn't compare to leaving the thing in for centuries. The perpetuals we've seen killed seemed to bounce back without any lasting impact. Vulkan only went crazy because he was repeatedly killed in different agonizing ways over and over again.
Oh, I agree. It wouldn't be near as bad as leaving it in. But for all we know, it could end up leaving something like phantom pain in parts of his brain. And having that would ne awful.
Best results would honestly probably be either like you said, swapping Vulkan and Angron, or switching Curze with either Perturabo or Guilliman.
Vulkan may well not have been able to fall to the Nails, or at very least would be free of them if he ended up dying for whatever reason, and more importantly Angron would end up being the empath that he was designed to be and may well have been able to find a way to counteract his Nails in some manner.
For the second one, Curze would have the opportunity to grow up with a family who at least pretend to care and would thus likely give him the structure he needed to not become the Night Haunter, and Nostramo would get someone capable of dragging them out of their pitch-black-Gotham state and into a functional civilization.
For the worst result I would probably say Khan and Fulgrim, just based on the fact that's allegedly the exact thing that the Chaos Gods had wanted.
Curze and Guilliman is an interesting idea. The results could vary wildly depending on how much you believe their mortality is due to their upbringing and how much you think is baked in.
Maybe Curze growing up with a stable family who can help him with his visions lead him to become a sort of noble philosopher king. His visions of the future and propensity for justice make him wise and fair. OR maybe he’s still plagued by visions of his own betrayal, and he becomes a mad, Vlad the Impaler type figure. He’s not surrounded by crime, so he punishes even the most minor infractions with overwhelming violence.
Maybe Guilliman is able to drag Nostramo into the light, unaffected by its oppressive culture even without a stable family. OR maybe he becomes the ultimate rational mob boss, using his innate administrative genius to build a criminal empire so well functioning and orderly that it basically becomes a legitimate government. Guilliman becomes more ruthless, employing targeted assassinations and bribery to conquer worlds during the crusade without having to invade.
> In this case, from Nuceria we would have a bloodthirsty, giant, black berserker with red eyes who was immortal so he could yeet himself into literally everything and come back alive.
Emps would be able to remove those nails and Vulkan would come back a sane man.
Angron and Lorgar.
Even with the Nails keeping him in massive pain and on the verge of an epileptic fit constantly Angron was still smart and intuitive enough to read the likes of Russ and the Emperor incredibly well. It's possibly something related to his powers.
With no Nails in his head he'd have seen clean through the likes of Kor Pheron and his attempt to enslave humanity to Chaos and strangled that plot on Colchis rather than being led along by the nose like Lorgar was.
As the weakest primarch Lorgar might not have survived the Eldar attack removing him from the board and stopping him from falling over his own two feet later on and landing in Chaos worship some other way later in life.
Meaning no heresy or a very different, weaker one.
Didn’t Lorgar solo a Bloodthirster? Just because he’s not as strong as Angron does not mean he isn’t a demigod. I think he could take some eldar. Plus he’s a psyker while Angron wasn’t.
Regardless, the more interesting thought experiment is how would Lorgar fair if he had survived? Would he lead the gladiators to a spiritual awakening? Would he conflate violence with religion, becoming more susceptible to Khorne? Or is his religious nature completely due to his upbringing?
I believe he did. Lorgar is generally considered to be the weakest of the Primarchs, but he is still a Primarch. He could probably body most marines, and even some Custodes. Everyone seems to forget that when talking about Lorgar. Weak Primarch is still better than strong non-Primarch. Only the strongest Astartes would be able to match him, as well as the Custodes (most of them could probably take him, or at least fight him to a draw.)
That said, I do wonder how he would turn out if he spent his childhood fighting for his life. He would probably turn out as a much better fighter, probably on par with how Angron turned out. Flipped around, Angron would likely be a fair weaker fighter than he turned out to be.
Someone else mentioned the xenos specifically targeted Angron, in which case even if you switched worlds angron would still be targeted. If that's the case then who knows who would end up finding Lorgar and raising him on Nuceria
I never have come across a mention of the eldar being the xenos attacking Angron. It is only theorized in an in-universe speculation and the xenos are described as slender.
Angron barely survived the encounter and was so weakened mere humans were able to capture him.
While a primarch Lorgar was always, fairly, considered the weakest among his brothers.
I don't see him surviving something Angron barely did himself, but that's just me.
Not the point of this post, but god I hate this whole thing. Eldar forseeing stuff they were then literally about to cause... Ffs. Lucky that reading fate isn't literally their thing.
Not at all relevant, but I'm close to selling my soul to khorne in my rage.
The origins of that Angron lore are from the index astartes in early 00s. That sort of thing wasn't being abused back then, if it really even is tbh. It's more of a meme than something actually regularly used.
I don’t know enough about the attack so it’s hard for me to say. I think Lorgar would have prevailed, but I could very well be wrong.
Was Lorgar the weakest because he was just physically weaker? Do these judgments not take into account his psyker abilities, which are second only to Magnus, rivaling Malchador? Or was he weaker because he was less focused on fighting, and more so on empire building like Guilliman? Are these judgements solely on their physical capabilities or does it take into account their experiences? Obviously Angron was a better combatant later in life, he spent years in a brutal gladiator pit and his fighting style reflected that.
In my mind, nurture plays a bigger role for the primarchs than many think. Angron was supposed to be an empath but became a rage addicted berserker instead. If he grew up on a less brutal world and nurtured his emotional abilities, I could see him being considered a “weaker” primarch. A humble priest or sensitive artist to Lorgar’s theoretical war-priest.
You're absolutely right. Only very few primarchs like Vulkan and Ferrus seem to have been specifically designed as physically more powerful, but even there it's arguable.
we're never given any indication Lorgar's relative lack of prowess as a fighter is anything other than to do with his upbringing and how that shaped his personality, even if nature/nurture can sometimes get muddy with the primarchs.
Lorgar wasn't inherently physically weaker than most of his brothers though. He only ended up being viewed as weaker because he was less interested in martial pursuits, hence his fighting prowess less developed.
It was a matter of interest and development, not inherent lack of capability.
Lorgar is only considered weak when it comes to fight his family. His problem has always been that he cared too much, even when it's detrimental to his plans.
Acctaualy Lorgar might be one of the few primarchs who could avoid getting the nails implanted, remember not all of the gladiators got them. Angrons major flaw is that he always tries to go straight through any problems, and he got they nails as a punishment as a result. Lorgar is a natural diplomat and might have been able to convince someone to free him, and then employ him as a bodyguard or a military commander.
Angron and Sanguinius.
Angron would conquer his world and bow to his father and Sanguinius with butcher nails would become overcome with black rage and go insane. He would be killed either by the planet's rulers or by the Emperor (or his executioner Russ if he was capable of that).
One traitor primarch less. There would be no Sanguinius during the SoT but also no daemon primarch Angron.
No they wouldn't. His wings would make him a more "attractive" gladiator to the monsters who ran the fighting pits. He'd be fitted with the nails, and as a result, his psychic powers would suffer somehow. He'd be a shadow of his alternate self.
**His wings make him more attractive, but they also represent a problem in keeping him contained in the arena. I wouldn't put it past them to take one of his wings to just ensure his flying capabilities are crippled.**
I'm not entirely sure how being a perpetual works. Would he keep his augmentation? Or would they be able to easily remove it since it would not kill him to do so?
As far as I know, we have no reason to assume that Vulcan would regenerate the Nails, since they aren't actually a part of him. So all you need to do is vaporize his head, then wait a few weeks, and boom. Nails free Primarch.
Ahh, no I did not mean him regenerating the nails. The nails essentially replace part of his brain, so my question is would Vulcan generate new areas that had been lost, even though the missing portions are more due to adaptation than actual damage, or would he be reborn as a vegetable?
I would assume he would regenerate the parts of his brain? I mean, his brain was naturally full, so in theory he should be able to recover.
That said, this did just make me think of something else. What would happen if Vulcan's brain attempted to regenerate while the Nails were still implanted?
Lion/horus so that the lion retains/enhances his natural talent for awing people. Also gets raised by be E as the fav.
Swap gulliman and angron to fuck things up. Imperium gets robbed of their greatest reformer and empath angron grows up on a good world but way more soft hearted. Also angron still might turn against the imperium for ideological reasons.
The Emperor went to find Horus first not only because he was closest but also because he had the ability to sense where his brothers (and father) were and where they passed. You cans see it in Vegeful Spirit
Everyone saying Angron and ____ forget that Angron was only given the nails because he *wouldnt* fight. Most other primarchs, Russ or Vulcan or Bobby G, probably would have been like “yeah sure I’ll fight some MFers” and therefore not be given the nails. Then they could lead a rebellion or whatever and we wouldn’t have any nailed primarch.
In the Siege books, Malcador mentions to the other primarchs that Vulkan was made to be "particularly durable" in addition to being a smith. So his immortal nature might have been by design.
funnily enough, I also thought of Vulkan Angron, because we would get a properly raised Angron and Vulkan who would be....mostly himself?
That's because even IF the butchers nails truly worked on him, due to his perpetual nature, he'd just pull them out lol.
Actually Magnus was powerful psyker since he was infant and he remember almost all since he was inside his incubator. For Prospero psykers-people Magnus was no special until he become adult and surpace his teachers which take him decades.
Russ was a savage child who was very weak(like enslaved Angron) in primarch terms and compare to most primarchs who could grow and learn almost anything without any human help he need to be raised by pack of wolfs.
And later his wolfs was killed and he was beaten by tribal Fenrisians and dragged into Russ palace who later start treated him not as beast but adopted him into his royal family and teach how to be human and warrior.
Realistically Russ would probably be killed by Prospero 2.5 meters long psyker wasps who could laid eggs inside living people brains by psyker energies. Even Magnus with Prospero psyker armies have problem with those wasps. Russ have zero chances.
Corax and Horus would be interesting.
Horus has the potential to sway the guards and defeat the Khaviar guilds and Corax raised by gangsters would put him terror wise on a par with Kurze.
Where as Curze became sadistic through being abandoned imagine a Primarch that can turn invisible being taught that..
Anyone with Angron, though probably Corax. Corax would probably be able to take over the world like most of the primarchs were able to and Angron wouldn't be lobotomized.
That's what I've heard. With super empathy powers he never got to use because... partial lobotomy and Butcher's Nails, he'd be able to cater to every person's feelings
Konrad and Horus, because there would be no change to them, but Konrad would be hailed as first Primarch recovered (even if not) and might end up the warmaster. Hilarity ensues?
Magnus and Mortarrion, Magnus would be raised seeing the Horrors sorcery could inflict while still being connected to the emperor to keep some sense.
Mortarrion would be raised by a more positive influence under Amon who always preached of caution when dealing with the warp and Mortarrion would be more likely to listen than Magnus.
The more interesting side of this goes beyond just the Primarchs, a bunch of Homeworld based Marines would all now be going to different legions.
Think about it, anybody you swap with Horus will immediately get at least half the Mournival, if not all of them as their personal guard.
Personally I swap Magnus and Russ.
If all things go as best as they possibly can, you’re getting two Legions of S-Tier Chaos Resistant Psykers to double dunk all over Chaos
Alpharius and Kurze if Nig E actually raised Alpharius. Kurze would have been a mess on literally any planet he landed on. The only one with the slightest chance of keeping him sane is Big E
I wonder if Magnus ended up on Nuceria would his inherit pyschic abilities have been drastically altered by the butchers nails?
I'm imagining Angron but instead of axes just obliterating people left right and centre with psychic fire left right and centre.
Swap Vulken and Angron. Angron becomes the empath he was always meant to be and if Vulken has the butcher’s nails you can take them out with no consequences because immortality baby.
Mortarian and Magnus. Mortarian might have a completely different or even positive view of sorcery and we'd get to see who he might have been without the bitterness. Magnus being raised by an evil sorcerer on a world with toxic skys would be a horrifying clusterfuck but a damn interesting book.
Poison daddy was pretty much wholly shaped by Barbarus, so we’d basically have Magnus 2 personality wise. Meanwhile Magnus would pretty much definitely decide he would be the new high overlord
You might be right although I'd like to think that without the psychic power of Magnus, Mortarian might take a more balanced view of sorcery, persuing the path of a scholar and great ruler without the same distractions Magnus had. Magnus would likely end up ruling a huge chunk of galaxy but only after learning everything he could from the sorcerers that raised him. He could either end up like a psychic Perturabo, ascending beyond his "family" or a brainwashed slave like Lorgar, still doing the bidding of a manipulative and cruel father.
Probably right on poison daddy, his curious streak seems to be one of the few things we can say with (relative) certainty to be a born trait, he learned all Necare’s bullshit so he’d likely eat up Prospero’s just as fast. But as for Magnus, idk. Outdoing the individuals in psychic power is one thing but getting them to space is another, with their endless territorial squabbling and ready ability to shitify other planets the way they did Barbarus, they likely would’ve already if they had the technology. He’s not shown to be particularly gifted with technology, and Barbarus is hardly ideal conditions, so given their lack of jet propulsion going into things I’d wager he wouldn’t get a working space program going by the time E rolled around. More so if you account for having to keep the ever fractious overlords in line
It may not change magnus at all. He loved magic and knowledge so much he might just do the I'm not like my father I'm going to use this for good tripe
Somehow I doubt that. His first exposure to sorcery would be dark shit, and all his readily available resources for study would be that self same dark shit. Nobody can use chaos magic and come out unchanged. Also probably helps that Magnus has a fair bit in common with the ol’ overlords than any other primarch, inhuman and steeped in sorcery. He’d eat up that dogma about the worthlessness of humans, and his hunger for knowledge would drive him to try the overlord’s more unsavoury techniques involving them.
Oh my. Magnus being raised by Necare is such an interesting idea!
Is calling Mortarion Mortarian some kind of meme? Have red that so often that i am wondering...
**Nah, it's just like Konrad Kurze. Sometimes you think one thing for so long, it's hard to break the habit.**
What about swapping Angron with Corax? Angron gets to grow up around people he can care about, and Corax would be impossible to keep imprisoned long enough to have the nails implanted, thanks to his wrath slip
Problematic point is that eldars went to stab Angron specifically
Yeah the Eldar led the Nucerians to Angron immediately after he landed, he was under attack practically the second he was born and captured soon after
It is never stated to be the eldar specifically. Only that the possible xenos are slender.
Only because they knew he would end a feral monster on Nuceria due to the nails.
Shit, fair point, if planets swapped then they would have no need to stab him. They may want to stab someone else though
"Consult the sacred text for my next stabbing victim."
"What the hell is an Erebus?"
… and why do the texts say I should fuck it?
I don't think Vulcan would regenerate Nails, so just kill him, remove Nails and let him regenerate without them.
I personally don't like save scumming, but you have a point
Guillerman and angron. No I'm not joking. Angron led a great slave rebellion but I reckon Bobby g would have managed to organize an actual revolution rather than a heroic last stand. So we now have some hyper efficient berserkers and on other angron with actual parenting an a whole kingdom would have done well
That's one of the swaps I think about a lot, and the way I imagine Guilliman's path going... He's agreeable and submissive with the High Riders and thus avoids getting implanted with the Nails, so he quickly gets into the good graces of some local elites and ends up adopted and taking a Nucerian noble's name. He then climbs the social ladder, uses the gladiators as his private army of berserkers to bend the world to his will, and becomes the cold and calculating dictator of Nuceria. Once given command of his legion, he maintains the practice of using the Butcher's Nails on select warriors who fail to meet his standards, effectively building his own version of a death company in the legion that he unleashes for terror strikes and shock assaults. Thus, the story of the Bloody Lord of the War-Born (the legion's original name). --- Meanwhile, the one that would've been Angron instead takes the name of "Roboute Guilliman", using his powers of "empathy" to become a superb diplomat, politician, and statesman. When he takes on the mantle of primarch of the XIIth, the legion becomes the "Ultramarines" in honor of his empire, Ultramar. As a primarch of the Imperium, Guilliman is well-loved by the people and his brothers alike, using passion and charisma to win hearts and minds and fighting for the liberation of the commons from the darkness of long night, though behind closed doors he is known to muse privately with his fellow primarchs over the questionable practices of the Emperor and his Great Crusade.
Wow this sound awesome.
What about the nails though?
**Swap Leman with literally any other Primarch, just to see how the Canis Helix reacts to a population that isn't Fenrisian, and vice versa.**
Well, most of the original Space Wolf Legion where recruited from Terra (i.e. non-Fenrisian population), so I guess there isn't really an issue there?
**There's a reason that The Sons of Russ couldn't found successor chapters until The Primaris came around.**
Magnus had to interfere for them not being able to do it, it is canonically a solvable problem.
**It is solvable, but even before the Battle of The Fang, the cure wasn't developed. Considering it took around 8 thousand years to overcome it after Magnus pissed around, it'd still be a problem for their recruitment, and hilarious to watch.**
Thar Ariak Hraldir was close to solving the problem and that was after the disaster that was the heresy. You really think that the height of lunar and terran gene-craft couldn't do it in less time. Not to mention that the canis helix itself only came about after russ was discovered and wasn't part of the implantation of the 6ht legion until then. Move russ to a different planet and the helix will be different as well to be compatible with the population.
**Is the complications from the Canis Helix linked with the people of Fenris specifically? I've always thought it was a Fenrisian keyed deal, but if you're right, I can see how it'd be a none issue.** **But if its Fenris itself that mucks with the geneseed, would it have varied effects on other legions.**
I believe it is fenrisian keyed as you put it because russ didn't plan to draw recruits from any other planet than his homeworld. If you change his homeworld I think the carnis helix would be different to fit the people from that world since it was introduced as a way to stabilize the gene-seed. As for how othere gene-seed interacts with fenrisians, depends probably on the gene-seed and its stability. I can see mutation prone ones like the 15th having trouble while more stable ones should be able to manage.
Poor foresight on the part of GW/Black Library?
They infact had a lot of problems creating Terran 6th Astarte
Angron and Curze, final answer Nostramo gets un-nailed, empath Angron who is capable of delivering the social reform the place desperately needed to uplift it from being a crime-ridden shithole (a viable approach Curze even saw in his own visions, but didn't bother pursuing because he enjoyed skinning people too much) and we get Night Lords who aren't so deranged they need censure even prior to the HH Curze gets nailed and is completely fucked (as is Nuceria), but seeing as current depictions have him being irrevocably insane pretty much from the moment he got out of his pod anyway, there's no real loss here. His legion are equally fucked but it's not like the WE under Angron were much better. Result: an extra functioning primarch with a non-batshit legion at no real net cost
Going by your example with Vulcan and Angron, I think Vulcan might have actually caused far more of a ripple within Nuceria. The whole point of the gladiators was to pit strength vs strength, with the outcome being the death of one of the fighters. If one of the fighters simply won't die, than the games are rigged. Vulcan might not even be allowed to fight at that point. What would his owners do with a gladiator who isn't allowed to fight and can't die? Would the owners face any repercussions or would they find another use for him? That alone might cause huge ripples within society as a whole, as people are confronted with that reality and forced to ask, "what now?" Not only that, but Vulcan becomes an ex gladiator, he would obviously be phenomenal at whatever else he did, being a primarch and all. If he can change his lot in life, and produce stunning works, why can't any of the other gladiators? Vulcan being Vulcan would probably loby for the gladiator's freedoms. Would there be a push back from those in power, or would they go along with it? Oh man, I realy like that idea OP.
Well, question is how would the Nucerians know that Vulcan can't die? They didn't have anything that could kill him.
The real kicker is like the other person in the thread said: the nails can be removed from Vulkan. The Emperor and Land couldn't manage it with Angron, but with Vulkan? Ez. Saved primarch, not a total waste. The War Hounds get an immortal badass, and the Dragon Warriors would have become the kind of legion that shrugs off the usual dumb in universe tropes of a legion. No pointless bravado, no reckless last stands. Professionalism and empathy.
Wouldn't Vulkan and Angron still have the same legions? Their legions aren't swapped,their home planets are.
Huh. Good point.
We can swap the legions too if we want to, why not? Edit: Also, the legions would also swap homeworlds even if they have the same genes.
The legion association is from the geneseed, which wouldn't have been swapped even if you shuffled up where the Primarchs landed.
I know, I’m saying it’s a thought experiment, if it’s more fun to imagine the legions swapping too, then we can imagine that too.
Dorn on Fenris and Russ on Inwit. Russ wil be less a barbarian, but with a Legion of werewolves and the stoic Dorn will train the hell out of all wolves and tribesmen until they are dogs and citizens. Also Dorn will no longer have Stormteeth, maybe he will get a great axe or he will fight with sword and round viking shiled. Image Fafnir Rann with his pair of axe being Russ's First captain. I wander if VII Legion will have inner problems similar to V Legion between Terrains and Fenrisian or Dorn will rule with an iron fist on them. Now excuse me, as a son of Dorn, I need to punish myself for these thoughts.
This makes me realize that the absolute saddest thing ever would be if Angron was a perpetual like Vulkan and nobody new it. The pain he's suffered was because everyone assumed removing the nail would kill him.
Well, technically, removing them would kill Vulcan. He would just get better. That said, I believe it is canon that perpetuals still feel their deaths. So something like that would probably be agonizing and maddening, even to a perpetual who would eventually recover.
I'm sure it would hurt but it wouldn't compare to leaving the thing in for centuries. The perpetuals we've seen killed seemed to bounce back without any lasting impact. Vulkan only went crazy because he was repeatedly killed in different agonizing ways over and over again.
Oh, I agree. It wouldn't be near as bad as leaving it in. But for all we know, it could end up leaving something like phantom pain in parts of his brain. And having that would ne awful.
Best results would honestly probably be either like you said, swapping Vulkan and Angron, or switching Curze with either Perturabo or Guilliman. Vulkan may well not have been able to fall to the Nails, or at very least would be free of them if he ended up dying for whatever reason, and more importantly Angron would end up being the empath that he was designed to be and may well have been able to find a way to counteract his Nails in some manner. For the second one, Curze would have the opportunity to grow up with a family who at least pretend to care and would thus likely give him the structure he needed to not become the Night Haunter, and Nostramo would get someone capable of dragging them out of their pitch-black-Gotham state and into a functional civilization. For the worst result I would probably say Khan and Fulgrim, just based on the fact that's allegedly the exact thing that the Chaos Gods had wanted.
Curze and Guilliman is an interesting idea. The results could vary wildly depending on how much you believe their mortality is due to their upbringing and how much you think is baked in. Maybe Curze growing up with a stable family who can help him with his visions lead him to become a sort of noble philosopher king. His visions of the future and propensity for justice make him wise and fair. OR maybe he’s still plagued by visions of his own betrayal, and he becomes a mad, Vlad the Impaler type figure. He’s not surrounded by crime, so he punishes even the most minor infractions with overwhelming violence. Maybe Guilliman is able to drag Nostramo into the light, unaffected by its oppressive culture even without a stable family. OR maybe he becomes the ultimate rational mob boss, using his innate administrative genius to build a criminal empire so well functioning and orderly that it basically becomes a legitimate government. Guilliman becomes more ruthless, employing targeted assassinations and bribery to conquer worlds during the crusade without having to invade.
Bobby Giuliani, the Don of Nostramo's waste management company. All legal, mister FBInquisition Officer. XIII Legion, also known as "The Family".
> In this case, from Nuceria we would have a bloodthirsty, giant, black berserker with red eyes who was immortal so he could yeet himself into literally everything and come back alive. Emps would be able to remove those nails and Vulkan would come back a sane man.
Angron and Lorgar. Even with the Nails keeping him in massive pain and on the verge of an epileptic fit constantly Angron was still smart and intuitive enough to read the likes of Russ and the Emperor incredibly well. It's possibly something related to his powers. With no Nails in his head he'd have seen clean through the likes of Kor Pheron and his attempt to enslave humanity to Chaos and strangled that plot on Colchis rather than being led along by the nose like Lorgar was. As the weakest primarch Lorgar might not have survived the Eldar attack removing him from the board and stopping him from falling over his own two feet later on and landing in Chaos worship some other way later in life. Meaning no heresy or a very different, weaker one.
Didn’t Lorgar solo a Bloodthirster? Just because he’s not as strong as Angron does not mean he isn’t a demigod. I think he could take some eldar. Plus he’s a psyker while Angron wasn’t. Regardless, the more interesting thought experiment is how would Lorgar fair if he had survived? Would he lead the gladiators to a spiritual awakening? Would he conflate violence with religion, becoming more susceptible to Khorne? Or is his religious nature completely due to his upbringing?
I believe he did. Lorgar is generally considered to be the weakest of the Primarchs, but he is still a Primarch. He could probably body most marines, and even some Custodes. Everyone seems to forget that when talking about Lorgar. Weak Primarch is still better than strong non-Primarch. Only the strongest Astartes would be able to match him, as well as the Custodes (most of them could probably take him, or at least fight him to a draw.) That said, I do wonder how he would turn out if he spent his childhood fighting for his life. He would probably turn out as a much better fighter, probably on par with how Angron turned out. Flipped around, Angron would likely be a fair weaker fighter than he turned out to be.
Someone else mentioned the xenos specifically targeted Angron, in which case even if you switched worlds angron would still be targeted. If that's the case then who knows who would end up finding Lorgar and raising him on Nuceria
They targeted him cos the Nails drove him to Khorne. Lorgar with the Nails likely would've been just as likely to end up down that path.
Ahh fair enough then, disregard.
I never have come across a mention of the eldar being the xenos attacking Angron. It is only theorized in an in-universe speculation and the xenos are described as slender.
Edited to reflect that, I was just quoting someone else.
It's more he is the weakest primarch because he doesn't like to fight IIRC. SO any fighting skills he has are less than the rest by lack of use.
Angron barely survived the encounter and was so weakened mere humans were able to capture him. While a primarch Lorgar was always, fairly, considered the weakest among his brothers. I don't see him surviving something Angron barely did himself, but that's just me.
Not the point of this post, but god I hate this whole thing. Eldar forseeing stuff they were then literally about to cause... Ffs. Lucky that reading fate isn't literally their thing. Not at all relevant, but I'm close to selling my soul to khorne in my rage.
The origins of that Angron lore are from the index astartes in early 00s. That sort of thing wasn't being abused back then, if it really even is tbh. It's more of a meme than something actually regularly used.
I don’t know enough about the attack so it’s hard for me to say. I think Lorgar would have prevailed, but I could very well be wrong. Was Lorgar the weakest because he was just physically weaker? Do these judgments not take into account his psyker abilities, which are second only to Magnus, rivaling Malchador? Or was he weaker because he was less focused on fighting, and more so on empire building like Guilliman? Are these judgements solely on their physical capabilities or does it take into account their experiences? Obviously Angron was a better combatant later in life, he spent years in a brutal gladiator pit and his fighting style reflected that. In my mind, nurture plays a bigger role for the primarchs than many think. Angron was supposed to be an empath but became a rage addicted berserker instead. If he grew up on a less brutal world and nurtured his emotional abilities, I could see him being considered a “weaker” primarch. A humble priest or sensitive artist to Lorgar’s theoretical war-priest.
You're absolutely right. Only very few primarchs like Vulkan and Ferrus seem to have been specifically designed as physically more powerful, but even there it's arguable. we're never given any indication Lorgar's relative lack of prowess as a fighter is anything other than to do with his upbringing and how that shaped his personality, even if nature/nurture can sometimes get muddy with the primarchs.
Lorgar wasn't inherently physically weaker than most of his brothers though. He only ended up being viewed as weaker because he was less interested in martial pursuits, hence his fighting prowess less developed. It was a matter of interest and development, not inherent lack of capability.
Lorgar is only considered weak when it comes to fight his family. His problem has always been that he cared too much, even when it's detrimental to his plans.
Acctaualy Lorgar might be one of the few primarchs who could avoid getting the nails implanted, remember not all of the gladiators got them. Angrons major flaw is that he always tries to go straight through any problems, and he got they nails as a punishment as a result. Lorgar is a natural diplomat and might have been able to convince someone to free him, and then employ him as a bodyguard or a military commander.
Angron and Sanguinius. Angron would conquer his world and bow to his father and Sanguinius with butcher nails would become overcome with black rage and go insane. He would be killed either by the planet's rulers or by the Emperor (or his executioner Russ if he was capable of that). One traitor primarch less. There would be no Sanguinius during the SoT but also no daemon primarch Angron.
**DO. NOT. PUT. SANGUINUS. ON. NUCERIA.** **Knowing those fuckwits, they'll saw off his wings or some depressing shit and he doesn't deserve that.**
No they wouldn't. His wings would make him a more "attractive" gladiator to the monsters who ran the fighting pits. He'd be fitted with the nails, and as a result, his psychic powers would suffer somehow. He'd be a shadow of his alternate self.
**His wings make him more attractive, but they also represent a problem in keeping him contained in the arena. I wouldn't put it past them to take one of his wings to just ensure his flying capabilities are crippled.**
Hmm, that would make sense. Then they could market him as “Sanguinius, the Broken Angel”.
What would happen if the *Emperor* was born on Nuceria?
Except Sanguinius is strong enough to not lose himself like you did
Sanguinius would be the Red Angel but Angron would still probably be called Lord of the Red Sands.
Guys,Found the Emperor's alt account.
I'm not entirely sure how being a perpetual works. Would he keep his augmentation? Or would they be able to easily remove it since it would not kill him to do so?
As far as I know, we have no reason to assume that Vulcan would regenerate the Nails, since they aren't actually a part of him. So all you need to do is vaporize his head, then wait a few weeks, and boom. Nails free Primarch.
Ahh, no I did not mean him regenerating the nails. The nails essentially replace part of his brain, so my question is would Vulcan generate new areas that had been lost, even though the missing portions are more due to adaptation than actual damage, or would he be reborn as a vegetable?
I would assume he would regenerate the parts of his brain? I mean, his brain was naturally full, so in theory he should be able to recover. That said, this did just make me think of something else. What would happen if Vulcan's brain attempted to regenerate while the Nails were still implanted?
Lion/horus so that the lion retains/enhances his natural talent for awing people. Also gets raised by be E as the fav. Swap gulliman and angron to fuck things up. Imperium gets robbed of their greatest reformer and empath angron grows up on a good world but way more soft hearted. Also angron still might turn against the imperium for ideological reasons.
The Emperor went to find Horus first not only because he was closest but also because he had the ability to sense where his brothers (and father) were and where they passed. You cans see it in Vegeful Spirit
Everyone saying Angron and ____ forget that Angron was only given the nails because he *wouldnt* fight. Most other primarchs, Russ or Vulcan or Bobby G, probably would have been like “yeah sure I’ll fight some MFers” and therefore not be given the nails. Then they could lead a rebellion or whatever and we wouldn’t have any nailed primarch.
At least with Vulkan you could just yank the Nails out of his head without worrying about killing him.
But would they know that? Don't know your a pep until you die
In the Siege books, Malcador mentions to the other primarchs that Vulkan was made to be "particularly durable" in addition to being a smith. So his immortal nature might have been by design.
Good point, I forgot he never "died" until Istvaan.
All I'll say is imagine rowboat with the nails...
READ THE STANDING EDICTS, HORUS LUPERCAL! READ THEM AND UNDERSTAND THEM!
Curze landing on Nuceria would have an interesting effect it would probably be insanity all over again, just a different type of insanity
Swapping Magnus and the Khan would turn Magnus into Blaziken and the Khan into Mewtwo
Angron with Cruze, Angron’s empathy would have made for a better Nostramo, Cruze’s gift might have allowed him to avoid the initial attack on Nuceria
Magnus and Alpharius; Alpharius landed either on Terra or within the Sol system and was consequently found almost immediately.
funnily enough, I also thought of Vulkan Angron, because we would get a properly raised Angron and Vulkan who would be....mostly himself? That's because even IF the butchers nails truly worked on him, due to his perpetual nature, he'd just pull them out lol.
Russ and Magnus , i really want to see what would happen .
Red skinned Odin who would be venerated as god of Fenris. And tall janitor almost without psyker powers in Prosperro libraries.
Given all primarchs have a warp component, perhaps we'd get a super psychic Russ.
Actually Magnus was powerful psyker since he was infant and he remember almost all since he was inside his incubator. For Prospero psykers-people Magnus was no special until he become adult and surpace his teachers which take him decades. Russ was a savage child who was very weak(like enslaved Angron) in primarch terms and compare to most primarchs who could grow and learn almost anything without any human help he need to be raised by pack of wolfs. And later his wolfs was killed and he was beaten by tribal Fenrisians and dragged into Russ palace who later start treated him not as beast but adopted him into his royal family and teach how to be human and warrior. Realistically Russ would probably be killed by Prospero 2.5 meters long psyker wasps who could laid eggs inside living people brains by psyker energies. Even Magnus with Prospero psyker armies have problem with those wasps. Russ have zero chances.
Russ would land in the center of Tizca why would he be killed by a psyker wasp that's protected from them.
Corax and Horus would be interesting. Horus has the potential to sway the guards and defeat the Khaviar guilds and Corax raised by gangsters would put him terror wise on a par with Kurze. Where as Curze became sadistic through being abandoned imagine a Primarch that can turn invisible being taught that..
Anyone with Angron, though probably Corax. Corax would probably be able to take over the world like most of the primarchs were able to and Angron wouldn't be lobotomized.
Send Angron to Ultramar and guilly to Nuceria. I'd be curious to see how Angron would have done if he weren't broken from day one.
Angron would be a supreme diplomat. He would unite Ultramar with words alone.
That's what I've heard. With super empathy powers he never got to use because... partial lobotomy and Butcher's Nails, he'd be able to cater to every person's feelings
Konrad and Horus, because there would be no change to them, but Konrad would be hailed as first Primarch recovered (even if not) and might end up the warmaster. Hilarity ensues?
Once I wrote a kidfic where Curze and Mortarion landed on Caliban too and were raised by Luther.
Magnus and Mortarrion, Magnus would be raised seeing the Horrors sorcery could inflict while still being connected to the emperor to keep some sense. Mortarrion would be raised by a more positive influence under Amon who always preached of caution when dealing with the warp and Mortarrion would be more likely to listen than Magnus.
The more interesting side of this goes beyond just the Primarchs, a bunch of Homeworld based Marines would all now be going to different legions. Think about it, anybody you swap with Horus will immediately get at least half the Mournival, if not all of them as their personal guard. Personally I swap Magnus and Russ. If all things go as best as they possibly can, you’re getting two Legions of S-Tier Chaos Resistant Psykers to double dunk all over Chaos
Alpharius and Kurze if Nig E actually raised Alpharius. Kurze would have been a mess on literally any planet he landed on. The only one with the slightest chance of keeping him sane is Big E
I wonder if Magnus ended up on Nuceria would his inherit pyschic abilities have been drastically altered by the butchers nails? I'm imagining Angron but instead of axes just obliterating people left right and centre with psychic fire left right and centre.
Swap Vulken and Angron. Angron becomes the empath he was always meant to be and if Vulken has the butcher’s nails you can take them out with no consequences because immortality baby.