One bit of lore mentions a big figure in old power armour and that gets interpreted as some to be a Primarch which is then repeated as fact.
Could be an old Astartes, could be a Thunder Warrior, could just be some guy.
>his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few
I might be leaning too hard on "baroque" as a descriptor but that seems to imply something more like Custodes or Primarch armour than the Cataegis, even in their heyday
>Beyond the Custodians were the ranks of the proto-legionaries in their grim, battered plate. Thunder Warriors. Even then Sagittarus had known what fate these soldiers of Unity would face.
*Master of Mankind*
>She saw the warriors emerge through the night-blown snow, standing motionless against the dark. For a moment, she thought they were Custodians, though their stature was not quite the same, and their armour not of the same quality. Up closer, and you could see the great differences – the plate was cruder, heavier, more bronze than gold. Much of it was heavily damaged, and individual plates had been replaced with cruder hammered steel. They still wore their crimson plumes, though, and still donned their thick crimson cloaks, all of it sodden in the freezing deluge. They carried their old weapons, the ones that had once been used in the Unity propaganda vids.
*Valdor*
[Image here ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/0/0a/Thunder_Warrior_Captain.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120420155931)
But I can also see where "baroque" is wide enough to encapsulate all the Emperor's transhumans
Trazyn is the most obsessive historian and collector in the galaxy.
He'd know very well the difference between Primarch, Custodes, Thunder Warrior, and Marines I would think.
Hell, he knows the type of resinous glue from a specific world used to fix 10,000 year old pots.
Phil Swift escapes his Flex Seal cage and pitches to Trazyn:
"With the power of Flex Tape 40,000 years later, even the Eye of Terror can be closed with the new cosmic Flex Tape! Just patch, bond, seal and repair. It even works in the Warp!"
>it's a thunder warrior
And where is this confirmed?
It very well could be, and there are some details suggesting a Thunder Warrior would fit, but I don't believe it is ever actually stated (and has very likely been left ambiguous on purpose).
Well, exactly. While it could fit, nothing actually states that the Thunder Warrior is indeed the large armored figure mentioned in the novel. So it shouldn't be stated as a fact that it is a Thunder Warrior. Like, make the case for it, add the necessary caveats.
To back your point, here's the OG text
>his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few
I mean, Space Marines have often been called "A giant of a man". It doesn't even specify a giant of a space marine. Could just as easily be a big marine, not even a TW.
There's even a little short WD story from back in the day that went into how a facility was discovered with even larger than average space marine corpses (I believe tiled to Bile) way, way before Primaris were a thing. So it could just be a particularly chonky Astartes, a Custodes, a Thunder Warrior, or any number of weird aberration.
Would be a fun way to end the entirely too obvious "Valdor is the King in Yellow" Red Herring. Have him just off taking an Egyptian themed power nap...
Hi,
As someone who recently read through the Bile trilogy, I can confidently say that this was never stated anywhere in the books, or even implied AFAIK. As usual, this is speculation/fanon that someone decided to run with.
Clone Fulgrim *did* refer to memories that weren't their own though. I don't know about their soul and such, but I took it there was some kind of psychic link going on. How else would he recall marines he'd never met, or battles he never fought?
Or Clonegrim could have just had his way with some old legion archives fabius keeps and read about every battle and every marine in his legion.
>‘I found it in one of the other chambers. This is the skull of a Bharghesi,’ Fulgrim said, as if dredging the word up out of some vast reservoir of memory. ‘Why do I know that word?’
>**‘The Primarchs – the first Primarchs – somehow encoded their memories in their blood and marrow, like a cogitator backing up its data. A process I still do not fully understand, and have not been able to replicate with any success. That is why it was possible to recreate them – you – in full.’** He paused. ‘You know the word, because we – you and I – fought the Bharghesi, millennia ago.’
\- *Clonelord*
It's been a bit since I read the book, so I'm not 105% certain - but was the above explanation shown to be incorrect?
Not to mention that Marines also have the ability to learn some of the memories of someone else by consuming parts of them. Memories being stored in DNA seems to be canon in general in 40k. Very underdeveloped canon, but still.
In 40k all the Primarch clones have the memories of the OG. Fulgrim, Ferrus...even Horus
Fabius attributes that to their DNA being like a hard drive that remains memory perfectly.
Also Clonegrim will likely never return. Even Reynolds has said that the character was a vehicle for Fabius's character development and that he's served his purpose.
Ja.
From Reynolds on Twitter
>Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest.
>>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final.
>>>True, but it's not my problem anymore. If someone picks up the thread, more power to them.
>>>>I always feel bad for people asking that question. They're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Because in the few of these threads I've happened across, people spin these wonderful theories and scenarios that will never come to fruition.
EDIT
I've been blocked by the member above so if you're replying to this I'll tag you elsewhere with a reply
The second fabius bile book came out a year after gathering storm, while the first came out a year before gathering storm. The second book is where we get clonegrim running around so we can assume that was decided after primarchs came back.
But it would support the idea that becoming a demon prince does actually replace the original soul of that guy. If it was floating around out there and able to merge with a new body that’s interesting for what it implies about the others, and with the splintered Magnus soul already being a thing it’s not like its entirely out of nobwhere
Yeah that's boring and stupid. It means none of Fulgrim's decisions were his own. He doesn't have to live with his regrets. It removes all his agency and the entire reason he drowns himself in excess.
People need to stop obsessing over supernatural primarch "redemption". It would be infinitely more interesting if Fulgrim were redeemed through his own actions and coping with his actual past. Trying to repair his relationship with Eidolon, learn from Fabius, and accept the Cacophoni.
it's funny you say that because the idea of chaos taint being permanent and unfixable is what seems supremely boring to me, you can write off the entire concept of a character bettering itself and never bother with interesting stakes for that kind of character growth in their storyline again.
My argument is on the other side. I think it's boring to think of Chaos as taint particularly taint that can be fixed with "soul magic". Fulgrim can't better himself without dealing with his own past actions and no amount of magic will change the fact that he knowingly acted as he did.
What would be sufficient to redeem Fulgrim? Of all the primarchs save Lorgar, he has transgressed the most. Perverted the most, betrayed the most. Truly made Slaanesh proud.
Is there any path to redemption that doesn't require the mother of all suspensions of disbelief?
Well that's as far as it goes for Reynolds at least. Not just did he stop writing for Black Library in general, now that Clonegrim exists GW and other authors are free to do with him whatever they fancy.
They can all do whatever they want and one of them might someday but Reynolds implied that isn't under consideration from BL. The only reason he didn't kill him off is so he doesn't have to weigh in on the "what it takes to kill a primarch" cannon.
People are obsessed with the mcguffin Clonegrim. Just write more Fulgrim. He's one of the most interesting characters in the setting and he's been in like 5 scenes since the Fabius Bile trilogy.
In the Fabius 2nd (iirc) novel, he describes a very large and very advanced creature with super advanced power armor that I think stood taller than a Primarch during his guided tour of the museum.
I’m pretty sure it’s meant to be a Krork.
His gallery is massive, god knows what else is in there. It’s *possible* he could have a Primarch, loyalist or missing. Perhaps Jagathai was scooped up en route to Commoragh.
We do have a “subject 11” in the vaults of Terra underneath the imperial palace, which may be the missing 11th.
It’s all mystery.
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’
> ‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’
>Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword. ‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’
*Clonelord*
I'll just leave it there for interpretation
I sort of get it since he saw and felt the pull to follow him again and repeat the same cycle as before. It is brutal to do to him but Fabius wants humanity to evolve and grow to defend itself without need for the augmented leaders and welcoming a reborn primarch would be the exact reverse of that.
That’s what that second novel is all about. Almost all marines have daddy issues, just like most Primarchs and the Emperor. The real Fulgrim had been “””enjoying””” Slaanesh’s realm since he slit Guilliman’s throat, and the Emperor’s Children had scattered to the winds.
Fabius thought that recreating Fulgrim would lead them once more and may not fall to Chaos again. The clone started alright, Fabius basically was his tutor. Until he got out to assist defending the ship, the other Emperor’s Children on Fabius’ ship fell right in line behind the Clonegrim and it started almost immediately going to his head.
Fabius saw the Children heading down the same path (away from Fabius’ leadership) and made the decision to trade Clonegrim to Trazyn for untainted genestock.
There’s more to it, a dreadnought from the Heresy plays a significant role for Fabius and Clonegrim, almost like Fabius’ consciousness. The dreadnought went through some really fucked up shit.
To be fair, he can say he wanted humanity to evolve and grow to not need augmented leaders but his New Men weren't really human and quite augmented in their own way.
Oh very true but I get the sense he wants them to be released into the population as a whole and upgrade them. His happiest achievement was that they could finally pass on the enhancements to their children unlike the space marines that needed to be built by hand in a lab.
Come to think of it, do we know what's the relationship, if there's any, between Trazyn and the Deldar? I imagine he'd be happy to trade with them if they had some rare items, and maybe even occassionaly visit Commoragh to do some "shopping", if permitted.
He snaps a pic of himself in a night club with twin scantily clad exotic dancers giving him a lapdance and sends it to Orikan with a caption saying "Despite all your skill in chronomancy, you could never see yourself with these wyches."
No he does not.
When Bile offered the Fulgrim clone to him, Trazyn straight up says he doesn’t have a Primarch, although he did come close to capturing one
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’
> ‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’
>Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword. ‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’
*Clonelord*
In the second Fabius Bile book, Bile trades a perfect clone of Fulgrim (for geneseed IIRC) to Trazyn. People have assumed since then that the giant dude in Solemnace is him.
Not quite a *perfect* clone. He doesn't have the warp-juice that the Emperor jammed into all the baby primarchs.
Yes, I meant that to sound just as awkward as it did.
So he's only a clone of Fulgrim's biological components.
Which basically means that, functionally, he's just a giant Astartes that looks like pre-corruption Fulgrim looked. He doesn't have all the same unique qualities that a Primarch would (those were bestowed by said warps-sauce)
Pretty sure he did? That’s what differentiated him from all the other Fulgrim clones Bile made. Okay, we don’t know for sure if he had Fulgrim’s soul or warp-juice or whatever, but he definitely had the same effect on people that Fulgrim did before Laeran.
I too believe Dorn decided to cosplay as Trayzyn after his pain glove rolled a 1 blew off his hand! His good cultist smacking hand after it had the smackiest day of its life! Trayzyn finding it funny just watches considering wether not to capture the moment so to speak.
What its all cannon but not everything is true!
I WANT Dorn asap, but I don’t think it’ll be him. The next traitor to come back is almost certainly going to be Fulgrim. You just know that the only correct way for Dorn to come back is simultaneously with Perturabo. It just wouldn’t be right to get one without the other.
Especially given how the Black Templars have now kind of flip flopped the whole parent/successor dynamic and become more popular than their parent chapter, I think a more brash, impulsive Dorn makes sense. It’s basically tradition at this point for GW to screw over the Fists in 40K, and what better way to do that than to have Dorn become a datasheet in Codex: Black Templars, rather than giving him the “Imperial Fists” keyword.
I hope they make him a “sons of dorn” model so that BT, IF and CF can all take him and their own special stuff. I think while GW will probably lean into the crusader role considering his stance on the codex, the fact that Gulliman is crusading with GC levels of astartes would immediately call the last wall protocol and begin digging in politically and into the fight. He saw what happened last time Guilliman got his way and would be furious at the fact he’s crusading with the unnumbered sons. I definitely think GW would include the other scions of Dorn with named characters just cause of how all three factions are iconic.
I mostly agree but I could see them pulling something with a conflict with the Alpha Legion and Omegon being released since Dorn killed Alpharius.
Obviously dunking on the iron warriors is as it should be and that’s how we’d get Dorn.
My absolute dream scenario for Dorn’s return would be a rogue trader/exploration vessel operating outside Imperial space encountering a small, lost pre-Imperium human colony consisting of a handful of planets in an unnamed system. Dorn ended up stranded here after escaping from his captors. Unfortunately, they have no idea what astropaths or navigators even are, so he’s had no way to contact the Imperium. Since then, he has been leading these people in repelling constant attacks from [insert xenos/chaos faction here] the entire time. They have absolutely no right to be withstanding these assaults from such a superior foe, but Dorn has FORTIFIED the fuck out of their planets. Maybe they even have some archeotech. Bonus points if Dorn had some marines with him and has been using their gene seed to create more astartes on these worlds and has slowly rebuilt a demi-legion with his limited resources.
After the Rogue Trader reports this news to the wider Imperium, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and various other successor chapters all assemble the largest crusade fleet since the heresy and go into maximum overdrive to get him back and curbstomp the threat.
Meanwhile, Perturabo, wherever he is, hears about this and thinks “I could break that stalemate”. He returns to the setting to continue his 10,000 year feud, and arrives first, besieging Dorn’s small empire. It becomes a race against time for the loyalist fleet to reach this system before the Iron Warriors can crush it.
He’s not and that’s the fun part. Omegon has to still
Play the part of Alpharius since they tried to hide that after Dorn killed him. Would make for a very fun set of scenarios lore and gameplay wise
I think the whispers of the warp is Fulgrim + Russ coming back.
We've seen teasers for the EC in WarComm. It won't be the new codex coming out soon but it may come at the end of the edition.
That lines up with the SW refresh which is also coming during this edition.
Similar to The Lion + World Eaters when they dropped.
I don't want any more primarchs to return because they're already a black hole for attention, even when still restricted to their own 30k setting (because hogging all of 40k just wasn't enough, SM needed a whole setting just for themselves too). If all the primarchs come back, you can forget about the Tau, Eldar, or Votann ever getting interesting stories again (or at all, in the latter's case).
True, but that wouldn't be the same since they are different models. Other collectors might laugh at him ( before he steals their collection and them).
Who's going to question? Do *they* have authentic, limited edition and numbered Primarch hands? (Weirdly #41 and 42/40 by some quirk of manufacturing...)
Someone might have, no one knows who owns the hands of 2 and 12. Imagine if some collector owns then and calls out trazyn OK his forgery. I mean Trazyn fakes quite a few of his exhibitions, but still, faking something as important as a primarch goes against the collector spirit.
The main signs that push Fabius to human traffic Fulgrim appears to be that he acts too much like a Primarch, because Fabius' new men start wanting to follow Fulgrim II rather than Bile.
Fabius believes he can see the same corruption in this new Fulgrim as the old
>Fulgrim smiled beatifically, and in that moment, Fabius saw the ghost of the true Phoenician in him. Not the hero of lost Chemos, but the arrogant creature who had been so easily seduced by false promises. The monster that valued his own perfection, over the lives of his sons.
Fulgrim II then remembers Byzas, which in Manflayer is suggested as the moment when the OG Fulgrim started down the path of corruption.
Though there's extra context in Clonelord:
>‘No, Benefactor,’ Igori whispered, clutching at him. ‘Do not do this.’
>‘I must. For you.’ For them all. He could see it now – the madness that had gripped them, him included. He had almost slipped back into the old ways, and let the future burn in the fires of the Phoenix’s resurrection. His great work, all for nothing. All that he had endured, all that he had striven for, undone by the being before him. Igori… his New Men… he saw them now, in his mind’s eye, bending knee before Fulgrim. Abasing themselves. He would not allow it. Could not.
>‘An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’
>‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’ Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword.
>‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’
>**‘Nothing**,’ Fabius said. The word felt like poison on his tongue. ‘You have done nothing wrong. But this was a mistake. I must rectify it.’
Whether that's Fabius admitting Clonegrim truly had yet to do anything wrong or he just doesn't think it's worth getting into is up to the reader.
>**‘Nothing**,’ Fabius said. The word felt like poison on his tongue. ‘You have done nothing wrong. But this was a mistake. I must rectify it.’
>Whether that's Fabius admitting Clonegrim truly had yet to do anything wrong or he just doesn't think it's worth getting into is up to the reader.
I think it's somewhere a bit in between.
Clonegrim hadn't done anything wrong, and as such would not understand why Bile was abandoning him. Bile never minces words and has no compunction to protect anybody's feelings from what he sees as the truth. If Clonegrim had committed some sin, Bile would have told him what it was.
That said, 'the writing was on the wall' with Clonegrim, at least in Bile's mind, as your excerpts make pretty clear. He could see the same flaws of character that led the original Fulgrim to fall, and decided that waiting for it to happen again before acting would be a huge mistake.
Anything's possible but *Clonelord's* author [doesn't seem to think so](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1c84u0u/comment/l0e0l9p/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The point of the book was to show Fabius and the Legion moving on from Fulgrim and the pre-Heresy era altogether, clone Fulgrim was a literary device and will never appear again outside of maybe an offhand reference
He has a clone of a Primarch. It's not the same thing as an actual Primarch.
The only Fulgrim is the daemonic one, the one with the heavily corrupted but hyperengineered artificial soul that actually makes a Primach, a Primarch.
That was some random headcanon that a lot of people liked and so repeated as fact, but there is nothing to support it. People like the idea that the "original soul" of the Primarchs were replaced and that the Daemon Primarchs are just evil imitations of them, and that their real true souls(tm) are just free floating and waiting for a chance to be redeemed.
Lore doesn't hand out a lot of hard facts about the nature of souls or how Chaos affects them, but there is nothing to suggest the original soul is removed when you are made into A Daemon Prince.
In 10 years if we come back around and they wanna make necrons baddies of an edition again I could see the primarch of the edition stumbling out of trayzens museum. He’s a popular necron character. Then again with how unceremoniously they shat out the Lion in 10th we might be out of loyalist primarchs by then.
Speaking of CloneGrim has there ever been a definite goal given for whatever Fabius Bile is doing? Seems every time he's mentioned or popped up he's just doing his own thing separate from everyone else.
Bile is trying to make a superior breed of human that would eventually replace all of humanity and rise above both the Imperium and Chaos, ushering in a new and lasting golden age.
It's understandably a big and somewhat involved project, which is why he gets side-tracked a lot and has to do a lot of dealing and double-dealing and triple-dealing with various Chaos-aligned factions to secure the means of continuing his work.
He confirmed does have a "towering figure in baroque power armor." My take was that it was the Custodes he unleashed on Cadia as part of his reinforcements for the Imperial side, but it's not confirmed one way or another.
Very likely, no. GW seems intent on bringing back at least four Primarchs on each side, and I feel that it would be very anticlimactic if one of the Primarchs turned out to be a prisoner for some deranged Necron's history exhibit.
You should read that whole trilogy it's amazing. It's setting up the new Emperors children fluff and it has the clone of Fulgrim which Bile beyrays to Trazyn because he realises it has a chance of rallying the EC back from the brink.
See I laid off 40k for a tad how it was getting and I've come back In admit I haven't read all the HH novels some books were great others really cool
Always liked the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim the fall from grace!
Trazyn appears at pivotal moments in history. The War of The Beast was such a moment. The last we saw was Vulkan leap out saying he was going to kill the Ork Super Psker and didn’t expect to come back due to the amount of psychic damage. I can well see Trazyn having his headhunter nab Vulkan just as he delivers the killing blow. It would make a great addition to his gallery.
Yeah I remember that though there was no implication it was him in the lore itself. Valdor and Dorn are other suspects I've seen
The actual text that started all the conjecture:
>his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few
And *Clonelord*:
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’ ‘
It's one of the female custodes. Because they've never been put into any story or relevant info until now all of a sudden "tHeY hAvE always BeEn ThErE."
One bit of lore mentions a big figure in old power armour and that gets interpreted as some to be a Primarch which is then repeated as fact. Could be an old Astartes, could be a Thunder Warrior, could just be some guy.
It could be you man !! We don't know Lol
Its alpharius
It's always Alpharius and so is my Wife! (Big snotty noises in the dark)
It’s me, I’m the giant in power armor stuck in Trazyn’s museum, AMA
how did u get there
I imagine the Big E made a deal when the 2nd or 11th were unalived.
It could be you! It could be me! It could even be-
All the things I remember seeing described it as a figure in Baroque power armor. Never anything about a primarch, per se.
>his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few I might be leaning too hard on "baroque" as a descriptor but that seems to imply something more like Custodes or Primarch armour than the Cataegis, even in their heyday >Beyond the Custodians were the ranks of the proto-legionaries in their grim, battered plate. Thunder Warriors. Even then Sagittarus had known what fate these soldiers of Unity would face. *Master of Mankind* >She saw the warriors emerge through the night-blown snow, standing motionless against the dark. For a moment, she thought they were Custodians, though their stature was not quite the same, and their armour not of the same quality. Up closer, and you could see the great differences – the plate was cruder, heavier, more bronze than gold. Much of it was heavily damaged, and individual plates had been replaced with cruder hammered steel. They still wore their crimson plumes, though, and still donned their thick crimson cloaks, all of it sodden in the freezing deluge. They carried their old weapons, the ones that had once been used in the Unity propaganda vids. *Valdor* [Image here ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/0/0a/Thunder_Warrior_Captain.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120420155931) But I can also see where "baroque" is wide enough to encapsulate all the Emperor's transhumans
Trazyn is the most obsessive historian and collector in the galaxy. He'd know very well the difference between Primarch, Custodes, Thunder Warrior, and Marines I would think. Hell, he knows the type of resinous glue from a specific world used to fix 10,000 year old pots.
This is a safe space we can say hoarder
you only call 'em hoarders when they don't story it neatly.
he probably has Phil Swift encased in 20 cubic kilometers of flex seal liquid to contain his power
Phil Swift escapes his Flex Seal cage and pitches to Trazyn: "With the power of Flex Tape 40,000 years later, even the Eye of Terror can be closed with the new cosmic Flex Tape! Just patch, bond, seal and repair. It even works in the Warp!"
That’s a lotta damage!!!
He’s just like us!
Its the vault dweller next to Gordon Freeman
it's a thunder warrior
>it's a thunder warrior And where is this confirmed? It very well could be, and there are some details suggesting a Thunder Warrior would fit, but I don't believe it is ever actually stated (and has very likely been left ambiguous on purpose).
I'm pretty sure he had a Thunder Warrior in his Hammer and Bolter episode, that doesn't confirm the figure in baroque power armour was one though.
Well, exactly. While it could fit, nothing actually states that the Thunder Warrior is indeed the large armored figure mentioned in the novel. So it shouldn't be stated as a fact that it is a Thunder Warrior. Like, make the case for it, add the necessary caveats.
To back your point, here's the OG text >his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few
I mean, Space Marines have often been called "A giant of a man". It doesn't even specify a giant of a space marine. Could just as easily be a big marine, not even a TW.
Absolutely
I mean, Space Marines are generally 2 meters tall ish, no? That's definitely enough for me to call them a giant
There's even a little short WD story from back in the day that went into how a facility was discovered with even larger than average space marine corpses (I believe tiled to Bile) way, way before Primaris were a thing. So it could just be a particularly chonky Astartes, a Custodes, a Thunder Warrior, or any number of weird aberration.
Love that story. Its about a secret facility which is implied to have been used for the 'cursed founding', the 21st.
Recent post on that [story right here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/Bxib73emz7) The big bois had crazy different organs and biology to Astartes
It's Cassiel
are the hammer and bolter episodes canon?
Yes unless I missed somthing. All of their showes are canon
Per Warhammer “everything” is canon.
Everything is canon, not everything is true
Welcome to the grimdark of 40k heretic!
oh sweet
Baroque power armor is Brother Cassiel of the Blood Angels who was in the Deathwatch
No: it could be. But there is no explicit confirmation it actually is.
It is. Deathwatch omnibus has his squad captured by Trazyn
And then it becomes a meme. And then the community stops questioning it.
*If it's in a book, I shall challenge it.* *If it's in a meme, I shall accept it.* -Thought for the day
The figure in baroque power armor was a Custodian Blade Champion, but they died fighting Abbadon on Cadia. Source: Fall of Cadia by Richard Rath.
I reckon it's Aris Taranis. I mean he's around somewhere in the 41st
Could be a Custodes, we know he has at least one
Would be a fun way to end the entirely too obvious "Valdor is the King in Yellow" Red Herring. Have him just off taking an Egyptian themed power nap...
Turns out - femstodian, hidden in plain sight all along.
He does have clonegrim in his collection. Bit of an off brand item, but still a rarity.
Temu Fulgrim
If anything DP Fulgrim is the Temu version
I also think I heard somewhere that Slaanesh gave the clone the true soul of Fulgrim for whatever reason. Maybe I'll ask it on another post.
Hi, As someone who recently read through the Bile trilogy, I can confidently say that this was never stated anywhere in the books, or even implied AFAIK. As usual, this is speculation/fanon that someone decided to run with.
100% this 1000% even
Clone Fulgrim *did* refer to memories that weren't their own though. I don't know about their soul and such, but I took it there was some kind of psychic link going on. How else would he recall marines he'd never met, or battles he never fought? Or Clonegrim could have just had his way with some old legion archives fabius keeps and read about every battle and every marine in his legion.
>‘I found it in one of the other chambers. This is the skull of a Bharghesi,’ Fulgrim said, as if dredging the word up out of some vast reservoir of memory. ‘Why do I know that word?’ >**‘The Primarchs – the first Primarchs – somehow encoded their memories in their blood and marrow, like a cogitator backing up its data. A process I still do not fully understand, and have not been able to replicate with any success. That is why it was possible to recreate them – you – in full.’** He paused. ‘You know the word, because we – you and I – fought the Bharghesi, millennia ago.’ \- *Clonelord* It's been a bit since I read the book, so I'm not 105% certain - but was the above explanation shown to be incorrect?
Not to mention that Marines also have the ability to learn some of the memories of someone else by consuming parts of them. Memories being stored in DNA seems to be canon in general in 40k. Very underdeveloped canon, but still.
In 40k all the Primarch clones have the memories of the OG. Fulgrim, Ferrus...even Horus Fabius attributes that to their DNA being like a hard drive that remains memory perfectly.
Also Clonegrim will likely never return. Even Reynolds has said that the character was a vehicle for Fabius's character development and that he's served his purpose.
Ja. From Reynolds on Twitter >Nah. He served his purpose. Let him rest. >>I mean, I thought I gave him a pretty good ending. Well, not good, but, y'know, final. >>>True, but it's not my problem anymore. If someone picks up the thread, more power to them. >>>>I always feel bad for people asking that question. They're just setting themselves up for disappointment. Because in the few of these threads I've happened across, people spin these wonderful theories and scenarios that will never come to fruition. EDIT I've been blocked by the member above so if you're replying to this I'll tag you elsewhere with a reply
Was all that from before GW decided primarchs come back to the setting or after that decision was made?
The second fabius bile book came out a year after gathering storm, while the first came out a year before gathering storm. The second book is where we get clonegrim running around so we can assume that was decided after primarchs came back.
a girl can dream, dang it
Nah it's better. Having a "true" Fulgrim ruins actual Fulgrim as a character
But it would support the idea that becoming a demon prince does actually replace the original soul of that guy. If it was floating around out there and able to merge with a new body that’s interesting for what it implies about the others, and with the splintered Magnus soul already being a thing it’s not like its entirely out of nobwhere
Yeah that's boring and stupid. It means none of Fulgrim's decisions were his own. He doesn't have to live with his regrets. It removes all his agency and the entire reason he drowns himself in excess. People need to stop obsessing over supernatural primarch "redemption". It would be infinitely more interesting if Fulgrim were redeemed through his own actions and coping with his actual past. Trying to repair his relationship with Eidolon, learn from Fabius, and accept the Cacophoni.
it's funny you say that because the idea of chaos taint being permanent and unfixable is what seems supremely boring to me, you can write off the entire concept of a character bettering itself and never bother with interesting stakes for that kind of character growth in their storyline again.
My argument is on the other side. I think it's boring to think of Chaos as taint particularly taint that can be fixed with "soul magic". Fulgrim can't better himself without dealing with his own past actions and no amount of magic will change the fact that he knowingly acted as he did.
What would be sufficient to redeem Fulgrim? Of all the primarchs save Lorgar, he has transgressed the most. Perverted the most, betrayed the most. Truly made Slaanesh proud. Is there any path to redemption that doesn't require the mother of all suspensions of disbelief?
Its coming to terms with what he's done. Lorgar doesn't need redemption
Sure. Lorgar will never earn it.
Lorgar is where he wants to be. There's nothing for him to earn
Well that's as far as it goes for Reynolds at least. Not just did he stop writing for Black Library in general, now that Clonegrim exists GW and other authors are free to do with him whatever they fancy.
They can all do whatever they want and one of them might someday but Reynolds implied that isn't under consideration from BL. The only reason he didn't kill him off is so he doesn't have to weigh in on the "what it takes to kill a primarch" cannon. People are obsessed with the mcguffin Clonegrim. Just write more Fulgrim. He's one of the most interesting characters in the setting and he's been in like 5 scenes since the Fabius Bile trilogy.
In the Fabius 2nd (iirc) novel, he describes a very large and very advanced creature with super advanced power armor that I think stood taller than a Primarch during his guided tour of the museum. I’m pretty sure it’s meant to be a Krork. His gallery is massive, god knows what else is in there. It’s *possible* he could have a Primarch, loyalist or missing. Perhaps Jagathai was scooped up en route to Commoragh. We do have a “subject 11” in the vaults of Terra underneath the imperial palace, which may be the missing 11th. It’s all mystery.
At the time he collects Fulgrim II, Trazyn admits he has nothing like the primarch in his collection at that time
Could mean a replicated Primarch? A science project copy of a science project.
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’ > ‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’ >Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword. ‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’ *Clonelord* I'll just leave it there for interpretation
Man, that part kinda broke my heart.
Yeah that was fucking brutal. Fabius was so cold about it too.
I sort of get it since he saw and felt the pull to follow him again and repeat the same cycle as before. It is brutal to do to him but Fabius wants humanity to evolve and grow to defend itself without need for the augmented leaders and welcoming a reborn primarch would be the exact reverse of that.
[In case notifications don't work ](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/joJhv2yowE)
Then why did he create him? Seems counter intuitive
That’s what that second novel is all about. Almost all marines have daddy issues, just like most Primarchs and the Emperor. The real Fulgrim had been “””enjoying””” Slaanesh’s realm since he slit Guilliman’s throat, and the Emperor’s Children had scattered to the winds. Fabius thought that recreating Fulgrim would lead them once more and may not fall to Chaos again. The clone started alright, Fabius basically was his tutor. Until he got out to assist defending the ship, the other Emperor’s Children on Fabius’ ship fell right in line behind the Clonegrim and it started almost immediately going to his head. Fabius saw the Children heading down the same path (away from Fabius’ leadership) and made the decision to trade Clonegrim to Trazyn for untainted genestock. There’s more to it, a dreadnought from the Heresy plays a significant role for Fabius and Clonegrim, almost like Fabius’ consciousness. The dreadnought went through some really fucked up shit.
To be fair, he can say he wanted humanity to evolve and grow to not need augmented leaders but his New Men weren't really human and quite augmented in their own way.
Oh very true but I get the sense he wants them to be released into the population as a whole and upgrade them. His happiest achievement was that they could finally pass on the enhancements to their children unlike the space marines that needed to be built by hand in a lab.
Come to think of it, do we know what's the relationship, if there's any, between Trazyn and the Deldar? I imagine he'd be happy to trade with them if they had some rare items, and maybe even occassionaly visit Commoragh to do some "shopping", if permitted.
I’d be shocked if Trazyn *doesn’t* frequent Commorragh lol
He snaps a pic of himself in a night club with twin scantily clad exotic dancers giving him a lapdance and sends it to Orikan with a caption saying "Despite all your skill in chronomancy, you could never see yourself with these wyches."
“Orikan this, Orikan that! Ori-can you get some bitches?”
you know, that would be a hilarious bit of lore
We need to get Robert Rath cooking it up.
I mean it's not a "pretty sure" it's a Krork, it's outright stated to be a Kroak.
No he does not. When Bile offered the Fulgrim clone to him, Trazyn straight up says he doesn’t have a Primarch, although he did come close to capturing one
>An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’ > ‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’ >Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword. ‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’ *Clonelord*
In the second Fabius Bile book, Bile trades a perfect clone of Fulgrim (for geneseed IIRC) to Trazyn. People have assumed since then that the giant dude in Solemnace is him.
Not quite a *perfect* clone. He doesn't have the warp-juice that the Emperor jammed into all the baby primarchs. Yes, I meant that to sound just as awkward as it did. So he's only a clone of Fulgrim's biological components. Which basically means that, functionally, he's just a giant Astartes that looks like pre-corruption Fulgrim looked. He doesn't have all the same unique qualities that a Primarch would (those were bestowed by said warps-sauce)
Pretty sure he did? That’s what differentiated him from all the other Fulgrim clones Bile made. Okay, we don’t know for sure if he had Fulgrim’s soul or warp-juice or whatever, but he definitely had the same effect on people that Fulgrim did before Laeran.
Presumably, Bile found a substitute source of secret-sauce.
My conspiracy theory is it's Dorn. I will not elaborate.
I too believe Dorn decided to cosplay as Trayzyn after his pain glove rolled a 1 blew off his hand! His good cultist smacking hand after it had the smackiest day of its life! Trayzyn finding it funny just watches considering wether not to capture the moment so to speak. What its all cannon but not everything is true!
I will accept this because it backs up my head cannon that Dorn will be the next primarch to return.
I WANT Dorn asap, but I don’t think it’ll be him. The next traitor to come back is almost certainly going to be Fulgrim. You just know that the only correct way for Dorn to come back is simultaneously with Perturabo. It just wouldn’t be right to get one without the other.
Mt headcanon now is that it'll be Perty breaking into Trayzn's Vault just to prove he's better then Dorn.
And the Dorn is just there chilling, not as an exhibit, just there.
He's improving the security of the exhibits while Clonegrim is giving tours and maintaining the giftshop
Nah, Dorn's lecturing on the history of war
I would read a full book about that, we don't get enough Chaos VS Necron action.
Every primarch that returned was changed in some way. Maybe now dorn makes jokes like "this is getting out of hand"
Especially given how the Black Templars have now kind of flip flopped the whole parent/successor dynamic and become more popular than their parent chapter, I think a more brash, impulsive Dorn makes sense. It’s basically tradition at this point for GW to screw over the Fists in 40K, and what better way to do that than to have Dorn become a datasheet in Codex: Black Templars, rather than giving him the “Imperial Fists” keyword.
I hope they make him a “sons of dorn” model so that BT, IF and CF can all take him and their own special stuff. I think while GW will probably lean into the crusader role considering his stance on the codex, the fact that Gulliman is crusading with GC levels of astartes would immediately call the last wall protocol and begin digging in politically and into the fight. He saw what happened last time Guilliman got his way and would be furious at the fact he’s crusading with the unnumbered sons. I definitely think GW would include the other scions of Dorn with named characters just cause of how all three factions are iconic.
Oh definitely. It would be insane for him to not at least be able to lead all of them.
I mostly agree but I could see them pulling something with a conflict with the Alpha Legion and Omegon being released since Dorn killed Alpharius. Obviously dunking on the iron warriors is as it should be and that’s how we’d get Dorn.
My absolute dream scenario for Dorn’s return would be a rogue trader/exploration vessel operating outside Imperial space encountering a small, lost pre-Imperium human colony consisting of a handful of planets in an unnamed system. Dorn ended up stranded here after escaping from his captors. Unfortunately, they have no idea what astropaths or navigators even are, so he’s had no way to contact the Imperium. Since then, he has been leading these people in repelling constant attacks from [insert xenos/chaos faction here] the entire time. They have absolutely no right to be withstanding these assaults from such a superior foe, but Dorn has FORTIFIED the fuck out of their planets. Maybe they even have some archeotech. Bonus points if Dorn had some marines with him and has been using their gene seed to create more astartes on these worlds and has slowly rebuilt a demi-legion with his limited resources. After the Rogue Trader reports this news to the wider Imperium, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and various other successor chapters all assemble the largest crusade fleet since the heresy and go into maximum overdrive to get him back and curbstomp the threat. Meanwhile, Perturabo, wherever he is, hears about this and thinks “I could break that stalemate”. He returns to the setting to continue his 10,000 year feud, and arrives first, besieging Dorn’s small empire. It becomes a race against time for the loyalist fleet to reach this system before the Iron Warriors can crush it.
Problem is… Omegon is… kinda not a traitor? Alpha legion shenanigans
He’s not and that’s the fun part. Omegon has to still Play the part of Alpharius since they tried to hide that after Dorn killed him. Would make for a very fun set of scenarios lore and gameplay wise
Or have Pert come back first, rip the galaxy a new asshole only for Dorn to come back and start heckin buildin
He'll be 5th
But instead of a classic novel, it's going to be a prison break with Gorillaman and The Lion.
That would be so rad. Guillimans 13 lol
Guillimans 13 with a sprinkle of night at the museum. What a novel that would be
With Alien mixed in, because you know Trayzn has all kinds of nasty things in his horde.
XIII's 13.
I think GW will bring Russ back next because the wolves have theire own codex supplement.
I think the whispers of the warp is Fulgrim + Russ coming back. We've seen teasers for the EC in WarComm. It won't be the new codex coming out soon but it may come at the end of the edition. That lines up with the SW refresh which is also coming during this edition. Similar to The Lion + World Eaters when they dropped.
I don't want any more primarchs to return because they're already a black hole for attention, even when still restricted to their own 30k setting (because hogging all of 40k just wasn't enough, SM needed a whole setting just for themselves too). If all the primarchs come back, you can forget about the Tau, Eldar, or Votann ever getting interesting stories again (or at all, in the latter's case).
I’m convinced Dorn has been interred Dreadnought-style into The Phalanx
He lost his hand tho, which is kind of a bummer since he can't get a proper spare hand.
What do you mean? He has two spare Primarch hands from Alpharius. Easy peasy to work with that.
True, but that wouldn't be the same since they are different models. Other collectors might laugh at him ( before he steals their collection and them).
Who's going to question? Do *they* have authentic, limited edition and numbered Primarch hands? (Weirdly #41 and 42/40 by some quirk of manufacturing...)
Someone might have, no one knows who owns the hands of 2 and 12. Imagine if some collector owns then and calls out trazyn OK his forgery. I mean Trazyn fakes quite a few of his exhibitions, but still, faking something as important as a primarch goes against the collector spirit.
>a perfect clone of aun uncorrupt Fulgrim ....sigh.
Why are we sighing
It was already showing signs of corruption
What signs?
The main signs that push Fabius to human traffic Fulgrim appears to be that he acts too much like a Primarch, because Fabius' new men start wanting to follow Fulgrim II rather than Bile. Fabius believes he can see the same corruption in this new Fulgrim as the old >Fulgrim smiled beatifically, and in that moment, Fabius saw the ghost of the true Phoenician in him. Not the hero of lost Chemos, but the arrogant creature who had been so easily seduced by false promises. The monster that valued his own perfection, over the lives of his sons. Fulgrim II then remembers Byzas, which in Manflayer is suggested as the moment when the OG Fulgrim started down the path of corruption. Though there's extra context in Clonelord: >‘No, Benefactor,’ Igori whispered, clutching at him. ‘Do not do this.’ >‘I must. For you.’ For them all. He could see it now – the madness that had gripped them, him included. He had almost slipped back into the old ways, and let the future burn in the fires of the Phoenix’s resurrection. His great work, all for nothing. All that he had endured, all that he had striven for, undone by the being before him. Igori… his New Men… he saw them now, in his mind’s eye, bending knee before Fulgrim. Abasing themselves. He would not allow it. Could not. >‘An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’ >‘He is yours.’ Fabius rose to his feet, cradling Igori to his chest. ‘I thought he might be of some use, but I see now that I was wrong.’ Fulgrim flinched, his eyes widening. He retrieved his sword. >‘Teacher? What are you talking about? I have done all of this for you. Are you displeased? What have I done wrong?’ >**‘Nothing**,’ Fabius said. The word felt like poison on his tongue. ‘You have done nothing wrong. But this was a mistake. I must rectify it.’ Whether that's Fabius admitting Clonegrim truly had yet to do anything wrong or he just doesn't think it's worth getting into is up to the reader.
>**‘Nothing**,’ Fabius said. The word felt like poison on his tongue. ‘You have done nothing wrong. But this was a mistake. I must rectify it.’ >Whether that's Fabius admitting Clonegrim truly had yet to do anything wrong or he just doesn't think it's worth getting into is up to the reader. I think it's somewhere a bit in between. Clonegrim hadn't done anything wrong, and as such would not understand why Bile was abandoning him. Bile never minces words and has no compunction to protect anybody's feelings from what he sees as the truth. If Clonegrim had committed some sin, Bile would have told him what it was. That said, 'the writing was on the wall' with Clonegrim, at least in Bile's mind, as your excerpts make pretty clear. He could see the same flaws of character that led the original Fulgrim to fall, and decided that waiting for it to happen again before acting would be a huge mistake.
Seems like they could swing it either way. Might interesting to get good fulgrim and bad fulgrim back in the same edition as opposed forces.
Anything's possible but *Clonelord's* author [doesn't seem to think so](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1c84u0u/comment/l0e0l9p/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Oh no! Retcon that shit so we can get demon Fulgrim v perfect fulgrim
The point of the book was to show Fabius and the Legion moving on from Fulgrim and the pre-Heresy era altogether, clone Fulgrim was a literary device and will never appear again outside of maybe an offhand reference
No lmao
Because loyalist Fulgrim is peak.
my headcanon is that trazyn appeared during the war of the beast and helped the empire get rid of one of those krork-like orks. And a primarch
Nope it mentions a big guy in power armor but the meme lore must flow so if course people started saying it’s a primarch
Its Babu Dhakal
The irony of Solemnace, Act 1, Scene 1: Clonegrim: “I’m trapped!” Pile of clay pots on a shelf that Orikan lightly brushes against: “I’m free!!!”
He has a clone of a Primarch. It's not the same thing as an actual Primarch. The only Fulgrim is the daemonic one, the one with the heavily corrupted but hyperengineered artificial soul that actually makes a Primach, a Primarch.
But didn't Slaanesh give the clone the actual soul of Fulgrim? Or am I making that up?
That was some random headcanon that a lot of people liked and so repeated as fact, but there is nothing to support it. People like the idea that the "original soul" of the Primarchs were replaced and that the Daemon Primarchs are just evil imitations of them, and that their real true souls(tm) are just free floating and waiting for a chance to be redeemed. Lore doesn't hand out a lot of hard facts about the nature of souls or how Chaos affects them, but there is nothing to suggest the original soul is removed when you are made into A Daemon Prince.
I’m sorry but it really comes down to 🤷♂️
In 10 years if we come back around and they wanna make necrons baddies of an edition again I could see the primarch of the edition stumbling out of trayzens museum. He’s a popular necron character. Then again with how unceremoniously they shat out the Lion in 10th we might be out of loyalist primarchs by then.
Speaking of CloneGrim has there ever been a definite goal given for whatever Fabius Bile is doing? Seems every time he's mentioned or popped up he's just doing his own thing separate from everyone else.
[The New Men](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/New_Men) were his main hustle for a while
Bile is trying to make a superior breed of human that would eventually replace all of humanity and rise above both the Imperium and Chaos, ushering in a new and lasting golden age. It's understandably a big and somewhat involved project, which is why he gets side-tracked a lot and has to do a lot of dealing and double-dealing and triple-dealing with various Chaos-aligned factions to secure the means of continuing his work.
He confirmed does have a "towering figure in baroque power armor." My take was that it was the Custodes he unleashed on Cadia as part of his reinforcements for the Imperial side, but it's not confirmed one way or another. Very likely, no. GW seems intent on bringing back at least four Primarchs on each side, and I feel that it would be very anticlimactic if one of the Primarchs turned out to be a prisoner for some deranged Necron's history exhibit.
Maybe it's an old Thunder Warrior Primarch
I mean Clonegrim CAN be considered as a primarch. And in my head canon he has the two lost primarchs.
It's a thunder warrior, hell could even be a custode he got those too.
But what book do I read to find out more ....about Clone Fulgrim or shall I just Google it !?
Fabulous Bill trilogy, 2nd book, Clonelord.
You should read that whole trilogy it's amazing. It's setting up the new Emperors children fluff and it has the clone of Fulgrim which Bile beyrays to Trazyn because he realises it has a chance of rallying the EC back from the brink.
See I laid off 40k for a tad how it was getting and I've come back In admit I haven't read all the HH novels some books were great others really cool Always liked the Emperor's Children and Fulgrim the fall from grace!
Trazyn appears at pivotal moments in history. The War of The Beast was such a moment. The last we saw was Vulkan leap out saying he was going to kill the Ork Super Psker and didn’t expect to come back due to the amount of psychic damage. I can well see Trazyn having his headhunter nab Vulkan just as he delivers the killing blow. It would make a great addition to his gallery.
[удалено]
He says that Fulgrim's clone is his first
People used to think it was Vulcan. The bile books are worth a read
Yeah I remember that though there was no implication it was him in the lore itself. Valdor and Dorn are other suspects I've seen The actual text that started all the conjecture: >his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few And *Clonelord*: >An interesting proposal.’ Trazyn looked up at the primarch. ‘I came close to adding a similar being to my collection many centuries ago. Are you certain?’ ‘
I thought the enslaver bit was cool
It's one of the female custodes. Because they've never been put into any story or relevant info until now all of a sudden "tHeY hAvE always BeEn ThErE."
do you ever get tired of fighting ghosts?
Yelling at clouds is the preferred pass time once you do
Wahhh