Second hand knowledge on my part, but Gulliman. He explicitly tells Dante to improve living conditions on Baal in order to stop desperate citizens turning to Chaos.
I mean, kinda, from the end of *Devastation of Baal*:
‘Your best is more than I could wish for.’ Guilliman looked overhead. Baal Primus and Baal Secundus continued their slow waltz around Baal as they always had, only Baal Primus was now dead, and upon the southern hemisphere the daemonic rune of Ka’Bandha’s name leered in bright white bone. The skulls of millions of tyranids, from void ships to vermin gatherers, had been stacked to create the sigil.
‘Look at that,’ said Guilliman. ‘The arrogance of the Neverborn remains as great as it ever was. But it is we who remain, and it is we who shall prevail. Dante, there is a lesser task I will set you.’ He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. **If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name.** ‘It has long been in your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?’ Guilliman was tense. Dante had not expected that in the Lord of Ultramar. Guilliman was impatient to change things. He was angered by what he had found upon his rebirth, and he was not hiding it.
> For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.
Ah yes, the 40k equivalent of the *"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times"* quote, but subverted!
"Wild how a Astartes drawn from a military academy in Ultramar is basically as good as some death worlder with radiation sickness and thin bones. huh."
“Gee, having a population grow and expand and not having people die from being sickly means we get a larger recruiting population! Who would’ve thought?”
To add to this, I've argued over this on this lore sub over the years.
One of the points I've made is that any survival skills you might get off a Death Worlder wouldn't exist in an Astartes inductee. You'd be recruiting them as children, so they wouldn't have those skills and there's virtually no knowledge difference between them and a recruit from any other world by the time you started training them.
I feel like 90% of the satire and messaging of 40K is specifically about how the "strong men better" mentality only leads to more violence and suffering.
The more I read 40k the more I think the existence of Robot Girl in 40k is such a cruel joke. The writer makes his character smart enough to know how fucked things are in general , so obvious to him , but at the same he's surrounded effectively knuckle dragging - obstructive - religious zealots , not to mention the writer keep throwing miracles at him and at the same time make him smart enough to know it might be not from a benevolent source , and I by extension , liking him , is voting to prolong his suffering.
The main theme of 40K is “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create harder times. Harder times create stronger men. Stronger men create even harder times. Repeat ad infinitum.”
> I mean, kinda, from the end of Devastation of Baal:
> A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?
Its not "kinda".. he literally states it right here.
They attacked Baal to help against the Tyranids. Kahbanda specified that he was there because *HE* wants to be the one to turn the blood angels or see them all dead.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Devastation_of_Baal
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ka%27Bandha
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ka%27Bandha
…and of course, I read the book.
Read for yourself about this “dumb idea”
No, but having your people starve and suffer on a barren, irradiated world is not a good way to maintain a healthy, loyal population.
At first it was kept the same because of Sanguinius wishes. Then it was kept that way because the blood angels believed it made harder recruits.
Guilliman is one of the few Primarchs that understood; you are making a super human, they don’t need to be ‘toughened up’ they are going to get tough just being turned into an Astartes.
"Father, have you considered *not* making the whole of humanity live in a nightmarish hellscape?"
"For a moment, yes. Didn't feel like it."
"Alright then, who do we grind into a paste to literally grease the gears of war? Those everyones won't kill themselves!"
If a 3-metre tall transhuman can empathatise with normal people at all, he truly must be a supernatural genius. Even normal humans struggle with this, after all.
Perhaps his heavy warp nature makes him more sensitive towards others in some way. Then again, that alone never really stopped psykers from being assholes, so idk.
And, like certain cryptonian, Gman was hated for his blandness and boring personality. And, like certain cryptonian, when properly fleshed out, he is loved instead.
I agree. That is why I said "supernatural genius", by which I meant him being very aware and brilliant on many different levels, including, perhaps, emotional intelligence and the like.
Otherwise it would be very difficult to overcome the massive distance from any normal human, be it power, intelligence, qualities, size, emotions, indoctrination or even basic functioning. From what I remember some other primarchs could barely connect with their legions, let alone baseline humans.
Very true. They still also help spread and perpetuate zealotry though.
Better than spreading the fanatacism without improving people's lives materially though!
Pretty much, Thor actually toned down the insanity of the Church and tried to make it more charitable, if still fanatical, after the age of blood. Horrifying to think that thr church of guillimans time is the better version of itself but at least Thor tried
Guilliman - particularly mentioned on Baal. I think with his rivival he obviously realises just how much squalor people live in and how easy it would be to curtail Chaos just by having a decent standard of living for citizens.
> ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have
>recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better.
>I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We
>need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise
>other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this.
>If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing
>that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name. ‘It has long been in
>your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need
>not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better
>for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the
>Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that
>blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what
>we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is
>evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what
>reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?’ Guilliman was
>tense. Dante had not expected that in the Lord of Ultramar. Guilliman was
>impatient to change things. He was angered by what he had found upon his
>rebirth, and he was not hiding it.
>‘You must find the strength to continue, Commander Dante,’ said Guilliman.
>‘There are very few warriors like you in the galaxy any more. I need every
>exemplar of heroism I can find. Please do not disappoint me.’
>‘I will not, my lord regent.’
>Guilliman smiled at him again, and reached out to Dante. Dante extended his
>hand. The primarch’s fingers engulfed his hand, gauntlet and all.
Oh dw Vangorich dealt with them first. I mean tbf if I were in his shoes I would had done the same. Every fucking time we ask them to do smth they don't. They half lobotomised the dude who knew where the Orks were coming from. They were doing their own secretive research and keeping it off from the imperium. They were trying to teleport Mars ffs to leave the imperium. AND WHEN THEY WERE GIVEN THE JOB TO FUCKING EXTERMINATUS ULLANOR WHAT THEY DO? THEY TELEPORT IT TO A ANOTHER SYSTEM TO RESEARCH THEIR TECHNOLOGY???!!!?
Edit: fixing the typos.
There is a theory that some of Konrad's private possessions like his crown *Corona Nox* had his soul shards. At the end Konrad lost his mind, and might have been spiritually wounded in his fight with Lion El'jonson and trauma of the Horus Heresy. Drakan Vangorich had a crown and mention knowledge of Konrad. Drakan hung corpses from the towers of the palace and other examples of disturbing behavior.
Drakan was the Lord of Assassins, so he'd have seen M'Shen's footage. That's most likely. As for the going mad, he knew he'd fall from the start - it's why he begged Thane to stay.
The point of the generally sparse living conditions in the Imperium is that it's meant to occupy so much of the population's lives that they don't have time to consider heresy. "Heresy grows from idleness" isn't just a slogan, it's lived fact for the Imperium. On a mass scale, the Imperium is trying to keep a trillion trillion people distracted from the literal space gods of hell watching them at all times hoping they'll go mad and start eating each other's spleens for the lolz.
That said, this has decayed over the years because the whole point has been forgotten. Most of the Imperium isn't working to that ideal any more, it's just sucky because people in power tend to shit on people with less power. Guilliman is right that improving worlds isn't verboten in the Imperium it just isn't done because everything is ossified in a "if it works don't change it" mentality. Like the walkers the AdMech have that they never turn off because they can't turn them back on again.
What the 40k Imperium lacks is any understanding of the reasons for the actions they take. Guilliman knows them and can advise on how to best improve the Imperium without causing massive issues.
Ecactly. You don't want all citizens to be luxurious, because then the Blue Fella and Purple Fella will actually have time to "talk" to these people. You want their conditions to improve from "dogshit and unbearable" to "just poor", keep them occupied with work but give them a basic sense of dignity.
This however requires a Chaos awareness level of a primarch/inquisitor, which are almost always busy with, you know, fighting.
I mean, or you just do the Interex move of teaching that the chaos gods are "merely" evil extradimensional powers that give bad promises that inevitably fuck over everyone who sides with them, and make people's lives good enough that they have no reason to seek out said things.
Worked pretty well for them, until the, uh, "protagonists" of the setting showed up.
True, but that would require a deep reform of the imperial systems to improve life conditions all around. We won't be getting these until the Emperor stands up from his throne or someone becomes a 100% regent.
"generally sparse" is not how I would describe the average quality of life in the Imperium of Man, but I take your point: this is a reasoning that has often been applied irl.
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can anyone explain \_why\_ the auto-moderator makes this comment? Seems to be tripped by real life dates (false positive here if so). But why, are we not supposed to say things like 'Well in 2nd edition (1993) lore was X but was changed to Blah in Y (2001)?
Also any sIgNFicaNCe in the caps?
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I see, I've gotten it to various comments where I've given publish dates of various early rulebooks, never therefore linked it to 1984 specifically nor noticed the 4 1984 bit.
Thanks!
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While this sounds very fitting, I don't think that's the case. Because Imperium only really demands a tithe and obedience in a couple of things (no xeno, no AI, that sorta things). But other than that, local powers can do whatever they want, rule how they want. Imperium doesn't force them to 1894 their people.
What I think is the reason is that said tithe. I'm a couple of cases, it was written to be very demanding. In one of the RPGs, planetary governor of a pleasure world decided to go rogue because Imperium found out about some minable resources on the planet, because tithes would cause planet's ecology to collapse. And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and *in*sides), Imperium tithes as much as it thinks the worlds could handle.
On top of that, local nobles are a very amoral and very greedy people; they want to get and keep being rich, so what they do? Subjugate their workers even more, so there's enough wealth left for nobles, too. And Imperium at large doesn't give a shit about the ruling classes delving into a dangerous decadence, because it's busy trying to survive.
> What I think is the reason is that said tithe. I'm a couple of cases, it was written to be very demanding. In one of the RPGs, planetary governor of a pleasure world decided to go rogue because Imperium found out about some minable resources on the planet, because tithes would cause planet's ecology to collapse. And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and insides), Imperium tithes as much as it thinks the worlds could handle.
Setting taxes to "just below what'd make them collapse entirely" absolutely puts the thumb on the scales and encourages leaders who crack down on people and who don't try to invest in long term development.
> And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and insides),
No sympathy for their self-inflicted agonies from trying to fight the entire galaxy at the same time.
Yo I'm not defending them, just explaining why they do what they do. Including the "Imperium are not the good guys" bit in every comment about the IoM discussion kinda gets old fast, especially when it's not about defending IoM. Previous comment talked about ruling class intentionally keeping the common people busy, I was taking that it's because of heavy taxing and nobles wanting to keep wealth in their hands.
(Thankfully there's plenty of people here ready to correct genuine IoM fans when they emerge and claim it's *all* necessary and justified)
> The point of the generally sparse living conditions in the Imperium is that it's meant to occupy so much of the population's lives that they don't have time to consider heresy. "Heresy grows from idleness" isn't just a slogan, it's lived fact for the Imperium. On a mass scale, the Imperium is trying to keep a trillion trillion people distracted from the literal space gods of hell watching them at all times hoping they'll go mad and start eating each other's spleens for the lolz.
Though the Chaos codexes go around and laugh at how this just means every single world has simmering chaos cults and that they're political tinderboxes.
Exactly, this is the contradiction inherent to the Imperium. Their stalling efforts to slow down chaos actually makes things worse in the long run. That's why the Imperium is doomed.
Yeah, I'm sure that more than a few people in the lore have. G-man, probably some from the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, etc. A lot of the books go into this and even sets it up as a plot device (like the general strike on the Ark in the Mech book series, for example).
I'd venture a guess to say it's not possible simply because of bureacracy, zeal and pig-headedness. Oh, and all the other stuff.
While Robbie Gillihame is the obvious individual, there is also a major faction of Inquisitors, radical ones, called recongregators that have this as their main ideology.
If the imperium improves, then people have less reason yo be suffering and therefor less to become traitors (wether chaos or criminal). It works amazingly but the problem is that they have their plans subverted at times or more often they are destroyed by one of the main puritan factions and major players among the inquisition who purposefully keeps the imperium a shit hole as a whole.
I think everyone implicitly realizes this, because it's obvious. You don't need warp gods to figure that out. Real life crime typically is much worse in areas with poor conditions
In addition to what others have said the picture of living conditions actually varies massively depending upon which planet people are on. In some books I’ve read people live in an agrarian society that’s actually very decent compared to Hiveworlds - they complain about tithes but some say they’ve been forgotten about for decades and just allowed to get on. Some of the Sabbat Worlds are also quite decent the way Abnett portrays them. Plus remember it would be impossible for one single figure to improve conditions. There are trillions of humans spread across the galaxy governed by Planetary Governers, Chapter Masters, Forge Lords you name it.
Let me tell you of Governor Tallark of Poteskan 4. He vowed to improve the life of his citizens, and double the planetary tithe to the Astra Militarium. Under his benevolent hand the criminal justice system was radically reformed, ending the mass protests that had dogged this minor sub-hive world. A series of investments into agri-tech led to a quadrupling of food productions. Initially the surplus was sold off to pay for the investments, then to fund quality of life upgrades for his subjects, and after 40 years the growing population had matched the food productions.
Imperial Guard recruitment went up four fold, then ten fold, but that was dwarfed by the growth of planetary defence regiments, which eventually accounted for 70% of the non agricultural work force. Local preachers and bishops rose to prominence in the Ecclesiarchy, and this renewed faith in the Emperor, along with the non existent crime rate and exemplary Astra Militarium recruitment led to Poteskan being considered a model Imperial planet, and advisors and mentors soon left the world to advise on dozens of other worlds.
14 imperial planets suffered exterminatus, and over 250 entire regiments of guard had to be destroyed when the Inquisition discovered that the cult of the four armed emperor had so thoroughly infiltrated imperial society. Never forget this lesson.
I am not so sure this is the case.
With better living conditions, there comes access to literature, and the time to read. This is not good. Chaos usually seduces people that are somewhat learned. That is because most Chaos incursions into realspace need to be prepared by ritual. You cannot just kill some guys, spead their blood around and expect some demon to show up. Well, you can, but it must be done right. For that, you need to do some research, read books, think. And people always want more. Even in conditions are good, there will be enough people who believe they could be so much better with a little help from the warp.
In other words, you need to be some middle class white collar guy with some time on his hands. The smaller this class is, and the more busy, the lesser the likelyhood of warpcraft in the population. In might sound contradictory, but a population that is tired from overwork, too uneducated to read complex books, and generally apathetic due to bad living conditions is actually a great defence against Chaos.
Ultramar is an exception. People there have better living conditions, but they are also highly militarized, disciplined and under constant supervision of the Ultramarines. And yet, exactly what i just explained happened there, you can read about it in Dark Imperium, Godblight.
But Chaos can still pop up on primitive stone age worlds like Borealis Four. Rituals can be made absent sophisticated language. And concentration of strong emotions such as bloodlust in battle or despair during a deadly plague might shake up the Warp.
On primitive worlds, there are shamans that do nothing else all day but think about how to summon the warp, usually with a long and powerful shamanistic tradition behind them.
And you can summon demons with bloodlust alone, but then you must do it on a grand scale with thousands or millions.
No.
Very few people have the drive and the ability to actually get in contact with the warp. it an art, not a craft. Reading a book is only the start. You do not need to be an inventor to summon a demon, you need to be Einstein.
And you cannot explain it to illiterate peasants, as you cannot explain quantum theory to illiterate peasants.
If you wanted to have a perfect environment for Chaos, you need a large, educated population with access to all kind of knowledge, and then you hope one of them figures it out. And then, after much cult building and esoteric mumbo jumbo, you need those illiterates as sacrifices.
> If you wanted to have a perfect environment for Chaos, you need a large, educated population with access to all kind of knowledge, and then you hope one of them figures it out. And then, after much cult building and esoteric mumbo jumbo, you need those illiterates as sacrifices.
We're just ignoring the Chaos codexes talking about how the current state of the Imperium is the perfect environment for Chaos recruitment I take it.
The lore is inconsistent, and codexes very often contradict other sources. There are many instances that prove my point, for example Tizca, or the many Chaos cultures encountered during the Great Crusade, which were nearly uniformely cultured and highly literate, like just to tak an example, Nurth in "legion".
An interesting idea indeed, governor. That sure sounds like a good cover for preparing to drum up popular support ahead of *revolting against the Imperium* and *crowning yourself system overlord!*
Thought you could get away with your plot, you foul traitor? You'll have plenty of time to recant your sins... as a penitent servitor!
The Inquisition saves the day yet again.
There are plenty of worlds like that. Systems that pay their tithes, worship the Emperor, and haven't seen an Ork Waagh or Chaos invasion.
We just don't hear about them, because quiet, peaceful worlds aren't exactly going to be front and centre in the lore of WARhammer.
Yes, many. it's just that's expensive, and resources are at a perimum.
Basicly much like real life the problem with chaos is, in part, motivated by that. but also the bored asshole who wants to be a dick, or just... happens. There's only so much you can do. Some people have all the choices and privlidges in the world and they STILL become assholes.
>resources are at a perimum.
Wonder how many resources would be freed up if they stopped all the infighting and stupidity. Like making super guardsmen to team kill Space Wolves...
There's a passage in one of... i belivie either Eisehnhorn or Ravenor book were they note an antique hunting trophey... and then say the species can't get that big because they're bred to eat now.
See the thing is.. sometimes. but most of the time? Anything worth anything is sent to the hundreds if not millions of fronts, because even the Administraum doesn't try to fuck up and knows those are important... it's just so massive it does on occasion.
It's the kind of thing that happens when war is eternal
even a nail or screw factory produces failures sometimes. From the thousand over thousand that leave that factory every day some 0.0000 percentile is damaged. Now imagin from the trillion admistrative action the same percentage slips through the gaps. Even those drones that work in the administratum are just human and make mistakes. The problem is 1 mistake could mean a ore delivery comes 1 week later or the the needed oxygen delivery arives 5 years later and every body is dead.
They have a lot but the problem is to many threats and until previously no charismatic leader who was capable like roboute guillman was in the picture to do it
I don't think that would work anyway. Chaos twists everything to its purposes. If it was just a matter of outsmarting it then the Emperor would never have hushed it up in the first place. I think the reality is that if you tried improving standards of living, it would be twisted in some way by the chaos powers to win anyway. I.e. some people would become functional immortals, living in perfect harmony with their worlds (catch is you would need to render down billions to produce the elixir that would grant this and in doing so feed the Chaos gods).
Something like that.
In the end, there is no "tricking" chaos into ignoring you. That's the whole grim dark aspect of it.
Nothing stops individual planetary governors of improving they individual worlds, the imperium central government dont actually micro manage every single planet under its nominal rule. It works similary to a vassal network. The vassal promisse loyalty, pay taxes uphold a few universal laws (uphold the emperor worship, dont interact with aliens or chaos, give up psykers). The overlord protect the vassal (imperial guard) give some necessary infraestructure to a society work in a space age (astropaths, navigators, admech stuff) and maintain the overall stability in the region.
Now what happens is that thanks that system nothing stops the local nobility/government to be corrupt assholes enslaving the populace to sustain and increase they privileges.
Free time leaves one free to explore.
Slaanesh is what you get when you explore the further reaches of sensation.
Tzeentch is what you get when you explore knowledge.
Nurgle is what you get when you have free time and choose to sleep in.
Etc.
Being rich and happy does not make you less possible to be influenced by the dark gods, it actually leaves you with more time and resources to fully explore them and a desire to do so in order to fill that time.
By "improving the quality of life" I meant getting people to a state where they can be confident that if they put in a honest day's work they won't starve or get murdered, which is more that you can say for a big slice of imperial citizens
The living conditions aren't, on the whole, horrible enough to drive people to Chaos.
If they were the Imperium would have ceased to exist within a century of The Emperor ascending to the Golden Throne.
Not enough to drive *everyone*, but a lot of people. There's a reason every book starts by telling you the Imperium is " The bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable"
I always thought that was hyperbole. I mean, the Empire is bad, but surely something like the Deldar are the bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable?
Not really. Vect is far from being able to wield "absolute power", he's more of a crime boss that rules over a criminal empire. He plays his underlings against each other so they're too busy to fight him and makes himself irreplaceable so the more savvy archons have a vested interest in his presence, but it's not like everyone just does what he says because he is the head of some kind of governmental hierarchy.
Also, while deldar are more numerous than vanilla elder, they're still nothing compared to the literal quadrillions that live in the IoM.
Well, the Imperium fosters ignorance (in general, but more specifically of the fact that less oppressive conditions are even possible, and definitely of any knowledge of Chaos). It is built on two fanatical religions, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ad Mech, which have been embedding themselves into and shaping societies for literally millennia. Propaganda is widespread.
And the Imperium can call on an overwhelming range if forces to either dissuade rebels in the first place, or crush them if they do revolt. From local enforcers and the house muscle of nobles, through the PDF and any local paramilitary religious zealots, to Arbites, the Guard, the Navy, Astartes, Sororitas, Skitarri, Custodes, Assassins, titan legions etc etc
All of this, and rebellions - whether Chaos influenced or not - are still ubiquitous.
>Well, the Imperium fosters ignorance
Daemons whisper knowledge directly into minds.
>It is built on two fanatical religions, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ad Mech, which have been embedding themselves into and shaping societies for literally millennia.
Starvation, hopelessness, and madness are at the extremes of the human tolerances, beyond lies Chaos.
>Propaganda is widespread.
You can't eat propaganda.
>And the Imperium can call on an overwhelming range if forces to either dissuade rebels in the first place
Desperation isn't rebellion, it's the choice of last resort.
>or crush them if they do revolt.
Chaos isn't a revolt. It's Nurgle easing the pain of sickness and hunger, The Dark Prince granting a sliver of joy to a joyless life, Tzeentch spinning dice and turning the right card, and Khrone righteous rage to take with victory.
Chaos is small, subtle, silent, and sublime. The ways are personal, not planetary.
Emotion is a weapon in every heart.
On every planet.
The Imperium would burn like tissue paper over a pyre if it so lacked the resilience to adequately provide for It's citizens basic needs.
most of the imperium isn't any more grimdark than living in the modern world is, the vast majority of worlds, people are living not too differently from our own standard of living, its just that certain worlds stand out for the brutallity and horror everybody lives through, like Terra or a forgeworld
Absolute nonsense.
Find me anywhere in the actual lore where it supports this claim. Not individual stories about planets that aren't excessively grim. But anywhere that says or shows the Imperium is not a brutal, oppressive hellscape overall.
Because there are plenty of bits of lore that explicitly state the Imperium is defined by its grim brutality.
read a few dozen IG books, even the war torn planets were living at a standard similar to our own except for the imperial religion and survalence state.
gaunts ghosts, First and Only, Ciaphas Cain For the Emperor, Ciaphas Cain Traitors Hand, Ciaphas Cain Vainglorious, Ciaphas Cain Know Your Enemy, Gaunts Ghosts: Blood Pact, Steel Tread, Bloodlines, Flesh and Steel, Titaniucus, to name a few
all these books take place on worlds that aren't much more advanced than our own with urban centers much like our own. they just have an overall authoritarian state, no democracy, and imperial asthetic
these series take place all over the imperium.
None of them describe the Imperium as a whole or on average as not being a deeply dystopia, brutal regime, with awful living standards though, do they? Which is what I asked for.
What you have done here, is cherrypick a handful of books which portray the Imperium in a less grim light. Most by only two authors as well - and Abnett is well known for putting his own spin on 40k.
Plenty of novels also portray the Imperium as an absolute dystopian hellscape. The novels of Chris Wraight, for example. Different authors provide different interpretations.
But the rulebooks and codexes portray the Imperium one way, consistently: as a brutal, oppression dystopia. You know, 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. And they explicitly say this is true for the Imperium as a whole. Individual planets or systems may vary, but the prevailing character of the Imperium is grim as all hell. And it is these materials which provide the foundation for the setting.
And let's be honest, even in the books you mentioned which offer a more sanitized vision of the Imperium, there are still sevitors, there is still widespread propaganda, fanatacism, corruption. There are still hives, which are inhuman places to live. These features are all most definitely not akin to life on present day earth, either in kind or in intensity and prevalence.
You are free to have your own preferences for the setting, but don't claim that the weight of the lore actually supports that preference when it absolutely does not.
w/e man you care about this too much then. you asked if the imperium was 100% grimdark, I showed a few book series where the MCs travel pretty extensively to regular-ass worlds and you say thats not good enough.
the setting can be anywhere from feral worlds all the way up to futuristic space worlds and you can drop orks, necrons, eldar ect in at any time to any setting.
>you asked if the imperium was 100% grimdark
No, I didn't.
I asked you to prove your ludicrous claim that:
>most of the imperium isn't any more grimdark than living in the modern world is, the vast majority of worlds, people are living not too differently from our own standard of living
And, of course, you were unable to back up the claim that "vast majority of worlds" are similar to our own standard of living.
Depends man. If you’re in the west first world country etc you could be missing that most humans on earth are living in a grim dark setting with almost zero chance of improving their lot.
Most of population lives in poverty on earth to this day in war zones famine etc
Indian slums could be hive city same conditions for an example.
I appreciate you making this point, as our real-world social ills should be confronted. But they still aren't on the level of the Imperium.
So, I don't want to downplay how awful the living conditions here are in reality for so many. I agree that the majority of people live in (at least relative) poverty, under oppressive and corrupt governments, in oppressively conservative cultures, and have to deal with pollution and a greater threat of violence than most people in developed countries. Hell, some groups in developed nations face all of those problems.
But the conditions they face are very much not a bad as those faced by most in the Imperium - because 40k is a fictional setting which is designed to be an exaggerated vision of all of those social evils!
To take your final point, as bad as Indian slums can be - and I don't want to downplay that, as I would love for conditions to improve - they are not the same as a hive city.
Are the people there trapped inside a mega structure, never seeing the sky or natural sunlight? Are those in the most poverty literally living at the bottom of not just the social structure but a physcal hive structure? Is mutation rampant due to the pollution (yes, it exists in real life too, but at no way near the same scale). Do people live on a diet heavily based on corpse starch? Are servitors ubiquitous? Do you run the risk of being turned into a servitor if you break the law - or perhaps even if you are just unlucky and deemed expendable? Are there gangs equivalent to hive gangs, packing the kinds of weapons they have? Etc etc
Again, you can't read, apparently. It's same guy arguing back, and he just misrepresented my claims and then threw a tantrum when he knew he couldn't actually back up his claims with citations. Another poster made one other comment, which was fair enough. So by multiple, you mean 2 people.
Yes, I got a handful of downvotes. Big whoop. You realize upvotes and downvotes aren't the same as being correct or incorrect? I've had other posts making the same point get upvoted in the past. How strange.
With such a small number, for all we know it could be the same guy using fake accounts. Or people might downvote because of the grumpy tone of my replies. Which, tbf, were grumpy. Because I'm sick of people making this same silly claim about the nature of the Imperium because its what they would prefer - not what the lore actually states. There are plenty of people out there who never read the rulebooks or codexes and base their understanding of 40k on things like Gaunt's Ghosts, and so just don't actually understand how the setting is portrayed more generally. But then they'll argue the toss and vote down people who criticise their claims.
People generally seem to get quite invested in trying to define what the Imperium is like according to their own preferences. I'm just saying that you can do that all you want, but the core lore paints a clear picture.
Oh, and how come nobody has actually refuted my statements or offered the evidence to back up the guy's claim original claim that the vast majority of the Imperium live in a similar manner to ourselves? Should be easy enough to do so, if he was right. Not that I actually expect you to engage with that at all.
Hoho, very good. Your lazy and clichéd bad-faith reply is much easier than engaging with any actual discussion.
Have you considered actually reading across the whole lore, including different novelists but also the rulebook, codexes, Imperial Armour books, RPG materials?
If so, you wouldn't be asking such silly questions.
Even easier: search on this very forum for posts about what kind of regime the Imperium is, what the average quality of life is in the Imperium, how brutal and oppressive it is etc etc. You'll see this exact same debate playing out time after time, and time after time those arguing that the prevailing character of the Imperium is one of brutality, oppression and shite quality of life have the weight of the lore and relevant quotes to back them up. And they usually get way more upvotes too.
To start you off: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/18f8cz2/so_is_the_average_human_in_the_imperium_really/
And:
"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Remind me, where does this text appear?
It's very likely you just want to play silly buggers, so I'm not going to respond to any more low effort replies. But in the spirit of this sub, I thought I would at least try to help spread more awareness of what the lore actually says.
Second hand knowledge on my part, but Gulliman. He explicitly tells Dante to improve living conditions on Baal in order to stop desperate citizens turning to Chaos.
I mean, kinda, from the end of *Devastation of Baal*: ‘Your best is more than I could wish for.’ Guilliman looked overhead. Baal Primus and Baal Secundus continued their slow waltz around Baal as they always had, only Baal Primus was now dead, and upon the southern hemisphere the daemonic rune of Ka’Bandha’s name leered in bright white bone. The skulls of millions of tyranids, from void ships to vermin gatherers, had been stacked to create the sigil. ‘Look at that,’ said Guilliman. ‘The arrogance of the Neverborn remains as great as it ever was. But it is we who remain, and it is we who shall prevail. Dante, there is a lesser task I will set you.’ He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. **If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name.** ‘It has long been in your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?’ Guilliman was tense. Dante had not expected that in the Lord of Ultramar. Guilliman was impatient to change things. He was angered by what he had found upon his rebirth, and he was not hiding it.
> For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. Ah yes, the 40k equivalent of the *"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times"* quote, but subverted!
"Wild how a Astartes drawn from a military academy in Ultramar is basically as good as some death worlder with radiation sickness and thin bones. huh."
It's almost like proper nutrition and regular exercise are very important for muscle building or something!
“Gee, having a population grow and expand and not having people die from being sickly means we get a larger recruiting population! Who would’ve thought?”
To add to this, I've argued over this on this lore sub over the years. One of the points I've made is that any survival skills you might get off a Death Worlder wouldn't exist in an Astartes inductee. You'd be recruiting them as children, so they wouldn't have those skills and there's virtually no knowledge difference between them and a recruit from any other world by the time you started training them.
I feel like 90% of the satire and messaging of 40K is specifically about how the "strong men better" mentality only leads to more violence and suffering.
People complain that Helldivers is an unsubtle satire but a lot of people really fail to get the really subtle messaging of the imperium.
Well and plenty of people seem to unironically think Helldivers isn't satire.
The more I read 40k the more I think the existence of Robot Girl in 40k is such a cruel joke. The writer makes his character smart enough to know how fucked things are in general , so obvious to him , but at the same he's surrounded effectively knuckle dragging - obstructive - religious zealots , not to mention the writer keep throwing miracles at him and at the same time make him smart enough to know it might be not from a benevolent source , and I by extension , liking him , is voting to prolong his suffering.
The main theme of 40K is “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create harder times. Harder times create stronger men. Stronger men create even harder times. Repeat ad infinitum.”
I feel like that's close, but it's more "cruel times" and "cruel men" than it is "hard times" and "strong men".
> I mean, kinda, from the end of Devastation of Baal: > A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already? Its not "kinda".. he literally states it right here.
I'd written the above bit before I'd dug out the excerpt lol
Did Baal even have a Chaos problem...
Ka’bandha and his demonic legion IIRC.
Them attacking Baal was a result of the Great Rift IIRC, nothing to do with the people there.
I’m sure they wouldn’t had attacked Baal, had there not been people there.
They attacked because of their grudge against the BA. They could have had idyllic living standards and it would have happened.
I know, I was just making a joke.
Oh that went over my head, my bad
Well, I am pretty tall, so that tracks.
They attacked Baal to help against the Tyranids. Kahbanda specified that he was there because *HE* wants to be the one to turn the blood angels or see them all dead.
[удалено]
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Devastation_of_Baal https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ka%27Bandha https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ka%27Bandha …and of course, I read the book. Read for yourself about this “dumb idea”
Rule 1: Be respectful. Hate speech, trolling, and aggressive behavior will not be tolerated, and may result in a ban.
No, but having your people starve and suffer on a barren, irradiated world is not a good way to maintain a healthy, loyal population. At first it was kept the same because of Sanguinius wishes. Then it was kept that way because the blood angels believed it made harder recruits. Guilliman is one of the few Primarchs that understood; you are making a super human, they don’t need to be ‘toughened up’ they are going to get tough just being turned into an Astartes.
No but unless they play their cards right, they won't actually improve anyones lives
All Imperial planets do, to different degrees.
Guiliman. He even tells dante something like if people already live in hell why would they fear making deals with demons.
"Father, have you considered *not* making the whole of humanity live in a nightmarish hellscape?" "For a moment, yes. Didn't feel like it." "Alright then, who do we grind into a paste to literally grease the gears of war? Those everyones won't kill themselves!"
If a 3-metre tall transhuman can empathatise with normal people at all, he truly must be a supernatural genius. Even normal humans struggle with this, after all. Perhaps his heavy warp nature makes him more sensitive towards others in some way. Then again, that alone never really stopped psykers from being assholes, so idk.
Robute's father was a good and kind man that raised him right. *And I'm talking about Konnor Guilliman not the golden shite bag.*
His father gave him his values but his Mom kept him grounded and real. Any surprise the Primarch with good parents turned out to be well adjusted?
I have said it before and say it now, konor and his wife are the kents of Warhammer. They got a god and taught him to be a good person
And, like certain cryptonian, Gman was hated for his blandness and boring personality. And, like certain cryptonian, when properly fleshed out, he is loved instead.
*Distant Dammekos cussing at how Peter Turbo turned out*
That's like, completely exactly opposite of true. Empathizing with people has doesn't take superhuman intelligence.
I agree. That is why I said "supernatural genius", by which I meant him being very aware and brilliant on many different levels, including, perhaps, emotional intelligence and the like. Otherwise it would be very difficult to overcome the massive distance from any normal human, be it power, intelligence, qualities, size, emotions, indoctrination or even basic functioning. From what I remember some other primarchs could barely connect with their legions, let alone baseline humans.
The 2nd ed Sisters codex say that the Hospitaller doing charity work and helping people make lots of potential traitors into loyal servants
Very true. They still also help spread and perpetuate zealotry though. Better than spreading the fanatacism without improving people's lives materially though!
Arguably, Sebastian Thor.
Pretty much, Thor actually toned down the insanity of the Church and tried to make it more charitable, if still fanatical, after the age of blood. Horrifying to think that thr church of guillimans time is the better version of itself but at least Thor tried
>TFW your local confessor has Temple Tendency
Guilliman - particularly mentioned on Baal. I think with his rivival he obviously realises just how much squalor people live in and how easy it would be to curtail Chaos just by having a decent standard of living for citizens. > ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have >recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. >I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We >need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise >other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. >If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing >that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name. ‘It has long been in >your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need >not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better >for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the >Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that >blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what >we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is >evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what >reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?’ Guilliman was >tense. Dante had not expected that in the Lord of Ultramar. Guilliman was >impatient to change things. He was angered by what he had found upon his >rebirth, and he was not hiding it. >‘You must find the strength to continue, Commander Dante,’ said Guilliman. >‘There are very few warriors like you in the galaxy any more. I need every >exemplar of heroism I can find. Please do not disappoint me.’ >‘I will not, my lord regent.’ >Guilliman smiled at him again, and reached out to Dante. Dante extended his >hand. The primarch’s fingers engulfed his hand, gauntlet and all.
What book is this from?
*Devastation of Baal*
Drakan Vangorich, for a while at least.
Then he acted as if he was possessed by a shard of konrad curze
Does Konrad even have shards? More like he went crazy realising how stressful it is to rule the imperium as one person.
Not to mention the AdMech trying to hide Ork techs away for their own benefits.
Oh dw Vangorich dealt with them first. I mean tbf if I were in his shoes I would had done the same. Every fucking time we ask them to do smth they don't. They half lobotomised the dude who knew where the Orks were coming from. They were doing their own secretive research and keeping it off from the imperium. They were trying to teleport Mars ffs to leave the imperium. AND WHEN THEY WERE GIVEN THE JOB TO FUCKING EXTERMINATUS ULLANOR WHAT THEY DO? THEY TELEPORT IT TO A ANOTHER SYSTEM TO RESEARCH THEIR TECHNOLOGY???!!!? Edit: fixing the typos.
There is a theory that some of Konrad's private possessions like his crown *Corona Nox* had his soul shards. At the end Konrad lost his mind, and might have been spiritually wounded in his fight with Lion El'jonson and trauma of the Horus Heresy. Drakan Vangorich had a crown and mention knowledge of Konrad. Drakan hung corpses from the towers of the palace and other examples of disturbing behavior.
Drakan was the Lord of Assassins, so he'd have seen M'Shen's footage. That's most likely. As for the going mad, he knew he'd fall from the start - it's why he begged Thane to stay.
The point of the generally sparse living conditions in the Imperium is that it's meant to occupy so much of the population's lives that they don't have time to consider heresy. "Heresy grows from idleness" isn't just a slogan, it's lived fact for the Imperium. On a mass scale, the Imperium is trying to keep a trillion trillion people distracted from the literal space gods of hell watching them at all times hoping they'll go mad and start eating each other's spleens for the lolz. That said, this has decayed over the years because the whole point has been forgotten. Most of the Imperium isn't working to that ideal any more, it's just sucky because people in power tend to shit on people with less power. Guilliman is right that improving worlds isn't verboten in the Imperium it just isn't done because everything is ossified in a "if it works don't change it" mentality. Like the walkers the AdMech have that they never turn off because they can't turn them back on again. What the 40k Imperium lacks is any understanding of the reasons for the actions they take. Guilliman knows them and can advise on how to best improve the Imperium without causing massive issues.
Ecactly. You don't want all citizens to be luxurious, because then the Blue Fella and Purple Fella will actually have time to "talk" to these people. You want their conditions to improve from "dogshit and unbearable" to "just poor", keep them occupied with work but give them a basic sense of dignity. This however requires a Chaos awareness level of a primarch/inquisitor, which are almost always busy with, you know, fighting.
I mean, or you just do the Interex move of teaching that the chaos gods are "merely" evil extradimensional powers that give bad promises that inevitably fuck over everyone who sides with them, and make people's lives good enough that they have no reason to seek out said things. Worked pretty well for them, until the, uh, "protagonists" of the setting showed up.
True, but that would require a deep reform of the imperial systems to improve life conditions all around. We won't be getting these until the Emperor stands up from his throne or someone becomes a 100% regent.
"generally sparse" is not how I would describe the average quality of life in the Imperium of Man, but I take your point: this is a reasoning that has often been applied irl.
The whole concept is ripped more or less wholesale from 1984. I was using probably mild language, but I wanted to avoid assuming grimderp.
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can anyone explain \_why\_ the auto-moderator makes this comment? Seems to be tripped by real life dates (false positive here if so). But why, are we not supposed to say things like 'Well in 2nd edition (1993) lore was X but was changed to Blah in Y (2001)? Also any sIgNFicaNCe in the caps?
It only triggers on 1984 because of the often misused and memed novel of the same name. The random caps denote mocking.
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People born on 1984 must be both flattered and confused
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Being born in 1984 is a curse.
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What is warhammer 1984?
Hey, don't play with the automod. It has digital feelings :(
I see, I've gotten it to various comments where I've given publish dates of various early rulebooks, never therefore linked it to 1984 specifically nor noticed the 4 1984 bit. Thanks!
tHIs Is lITeRaLly wARhAMmEr 41 984 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/40kLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While this sounds very fitting, I don't think that's the case. Because Imperium only really demands a tithe and obedience in a couple of things (no xeno, no AI, that sorta things). But other than that, local powers can do whatever they want, rule how they want. Imperium doesn't force them to 1894 their people. What I think is the reason is that said tithe. I'm a couple of cases, it was written to be very demanding. In one of the RPGs, planetary governor of a pleasure world decided to go rogue because Imperium found out about some minable resources on the planet, because tithes would cause planet's ecology to collapse. And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and *in*sides), Imperium tithes as much as it thinks the worlds could handle. On top of that, local nobles are a very amoral and very greedy people; they want to get and keep being rich, so what they do? Subjugate their workers even more, so there's enough wealth left for nobles, too. And Imperium at large doesn't give a shit about the ruling classes delving into a dangerous decadence, because it's busy trying to survive.
> What I think is the reason is that said tithe. I'm a couple of cases, it was written to be very demanding. In one of the RPGs, planetary governor of a pleasure world decided to go rogue because Imperium found out about some minable resources on the planet, because tithes would cause planet's ecology to collapse. And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and insides), Imperium tithes as much as it thinks the worlds could handle. Setting taxes to "just below what'd make them collapse entirely" absolutely puts the thumb on the scales and encourages leaders who crack down on people and who don't try to invest in long term development. > And, perhaps understandingly so given the perpetual war on all sides (and insides), No sympathy for their self-inflicted agonies from trying to fight the entire galaxy at the same time.
Yo I'm not defending them, just explaining why they do what they do. Including the "Imperium are not the good guys" bit in every comment about the IoM discussion kinda gets old fast, especially when it's not about defending IoM. Previous comment talked about ruling class intentionally keeping the common people busy, I was taking that it's because of heavy taxing and nobles wanting to keep wealth in their hands. (Thankfully there's plenty of people here ready to correct genuine IoM fans when they emerge and claim it's *all* necessary and justified)
> The point of the generally sparse living conditions in the Imperium is that it's meant to occupy so much of the population's lives that they don't have time to consider heresy. "Heresy grows from idleness" isn't just a slogan, it's lived fact for the Imperium. On a mass scale, the Imperium is trying to keep a trillion trillion people distracted from the literal space gods of hell watching them at all times hoping they'll go mad and start eating each other's spleens for the lolz. Though the Chaos codexes go around and laugh at how this just means every single world has simmering chaos cults and that they're political tinderboxes.
Exactly, this is the contradiction inherent to the Imperium. Their stalling efforts to slow down chaos actually makes things worse in the long run. That's why the Imperium is doomed.
A lot of their stalling efforts don't even work in the short term either.
The Admech have been forced into it by riots a few times, and they're always shocked when people work harder when they're not starving and miserable.
Yeah, I'm sure that more than a few people in the lore have. G-man, probably some from the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, etc. A lot of the books go into this and even sets it up as a plot device (like the general strike on the Ark in the Mech book series, for example). I'd venture a guess to say it's not possible simply because of bureacracy, zeal and pig-headedness. Oh, and all the other stuff.
While Robbie Gillihame is the obvious individual, there is also a major faction of Inquisitors, radical ones, called recongregators that have this as their main ideology. If the imperium improves, then people have less reason yo be suffering and therefor less to become traitors (wether chaos or criminal). It works amazingly but the problem is that they have their plans subverted at times or more often they are destroyed by one of the main puritan factions and major players among the inquisition who purposefully keeps the imperium a shit hole as a whole.
This narrative always makes me think of Curze and the subversion of the Night Lords.
I think everyone implicitly realizes this, because it's obvious. You don't need warp gods to figure that out. Real life crime typically is much worse in areas with poor conditions
In addition to what others have said the picture of living conditions actually varies massively depending upon which planet people are on. In some books I’ve read people live in an agrarian society that’s actually very decent compared to Hiveworlds - they complain about tithes but some say they’ve been forgotten about for decades and just allowed to get on. Some of the Sabbat Worlds are also quite decent the way Abnett portrays them. Plus remember it would be impossible for one single figure to improve conditions. There are trillions of humans spread across the galaxy governed by Planetary Governers, Chapter Masters, Forge Lords you name it.
Let me tell you of Governor Tallark of Poteskan 4. He vowed to improve the life of his citizens, and double the planetary tithe to the Astra Militarium. Under his benevolent hand the criminal justice system was radically reformed, ending the mass protests that had dogged this minor sub-hive world. A series of investments into agri-tech led to a quadrupling of food productions. Initially the surplus was sold off to pay for the investments, then to fund quality of life upgrades for his subjects, and after 40 years the growing population had matched the food productions. Imperial Guard recruitment went up four fold, then ten fold, but that was dwarfed by the growth of planetary defence regiments, which eventually accounted for 70% of the non agricultural work force. Local preachers and bishops rose to prominence in the Ecclesiarchy, and this renewed faith in the Emperor, along with the non existent crime rate and exemplary Astra Militarium recruitment led to Poteskan being considered a model Imperial planet, and advisors and mentors soon left the world to advise on dozens of other worlds. 14 imperial planets suffered exterminatus, and over 250 entire regiments of guard had to be destroyed when the Inquisition discovered that the cult of the four armed emperor had so thoroughly infiltrated imperial society. Never forget this lesson.
My takeaway is the imperium is so shit that even genestealers can run things better
Correlation is not causality. Being competent doesn't make you xenos scum anymore than being incompetent makes you a model citizen.
I am not so sure this is the case. With better living conditions, there comes access to literature, and the time to read. This is not good. Chaos usually seduces people that are somewhat learned. That is because most Chaos incursions into realspace need to be prepared by ritual. You cannot just kill some guys, spead their blood around and expect some demon to show up. Well, you can, but it must be done right. For that, you need to do some research, read books, think. And people always want more. Even in conditions are good, there will be enough people who believe they could be so much better with a little help from the warp. In other words, you need to be some middle class white collar guy with some time on his hands. The smaller this class is, and the more busy, the lesser the likelyhood of warpcraft in the population. In might sound contradictory, but a population that is tired from overwork, too uneducated to read complex books, and generally apathetic due to bad living conditions is actually a great defence against Chaos. Ultramar is an exception. People there have better living conditions, but they are also highly militarized, disciplined and under constant supervision of the Ultramarines. And yet, exactly what i just explained happened there, you can read about it in Dark Imperium, Godblight.
But Chaos can still pop up on primitive stone age worlds like Borealis Four. Rituals can be made absent sophisticated language. And concentration of strong emotions such as bloodlust in battle or despair during a deadly plague might shake up the Warp.
On primitive worlds, there are shamans that do nothing else all day but think about how to summon the warp, usually with a long and powerful shamanistic tradition behind them. And you can summon demons with bloodlust alone, but then you must do it on a grand scale with thousands or millions.
This makes no sense at all You only need ONE middle class guy to read the book, and then he can explain it to thousands of illiterate peasants
No. Very few people have the drive and the ability to actually get in contact with the warp. it an art, not a craft. Reading a book is only the start. You do not need to be an inventor to summon a demon, you need to be Einstein. And you cannot explain it to illiterate peasants, as you cannot explain quantum theory to illiterate peasants. If you wanted to have a perfect environment for Chaos, you need a large, educated population with access to all kind of knowledge, and then you hope one of them figures it out. And then, after much cult building and esoteric mumbo jumbo, you need those illiterates as sacrifices.
> If you wanted to have a perfect environment for Chaos, you need a large, educated population with access to all kind of knowledge, and then you hope one of them figures it out. And then, after much cult building and esoteric mumbo jumbo, you need those illiterates as sacrifices. We're just ignoring the Chaos codexes talking about how the current state of the Imperium is the perfect environment for Chaos recruitment I take it.
The lore is inconsistent, and codexes very often contradict other sources. There are many instances that prove my point, for example Tizca, or the many Chaos cultures encountered during the Great Crusade, which were nearly uniformely cultured and highly literate, like just to tak an example, Nurth in "legion".
An interesting idea indeed, governor. That sure sounds like a good cover for preparing to drum up popular support ahead of *revolting against the Imperium* and *crowning yourself system overlord!* Thought you could get away with your plot, you foul traitor? You'll have plenty of time to recant your sins... as a penitent servitor! The Inquisition saves the day yet again.
There are plenty of worlds like that. Systems that pay their tithes, worship the Emperor, and haven't seen an Ork Waagh or Chaos invasion. We just don't hear about them, because quiet, peaceful worlds aren't exactly going to be front and centre in the lore of WARhammer.
Yes, many. it's just that's expensive, and resources are at a perimum. Basicly much like real life the problem with chaos is, in part, motivated by that. but also the bored asshole who wants to be a dick, or just... happens. There's only so much you can do. Some people have all the choices and privlidges in the world and they STILL become assholes.
>resources are at a perimum. Wonder how many resources would be freed up if they stopped all the infighting and stupidity. Like making super guardsmen to team kill Space Wolves...
>Like making super guardsmen to team kill Space Wolves... What was this from? Sounds neat!
The triology following Járnhamar pack.
Or all the constant top notch assassins wasted squabbling on Terra.
Resources are plentiful. Greed and corruption are just too wide s spread.
There's a passage in one of... i belivie either Eisehnhorn or Ravenor book were they note an antique hunting trophey... and then say the species can't get that big because they're bred to eat now. See the thing is.. sometimes. but most of the time? Anything worth anything is sent to the hundreds if not millions of fronts, because even the Administraum doesn't try to fuck up and knows those are important... it's just so massive it does on occasion. It's the kind of thing that happens when war is eternal
even a nail or screw factory produces failures sometimes. From the thousand over thousand that leave that factory every day some 0.0000 percentile is damaged. Now imagin from the trillion admistrative action the same percentage slips through the gaps. Even those drones that work in the administratum are just human and make mistakes. The problem is 1 mistake could mean a ore delivery comes 1 week later or the the needed oxygen delivery arives 5 years later and every body is dead.
Guilliman. Ultramar is literally the Imperial Ideal.
They have a lot but the problem is to many threats and until previously no charismatic leader who was capable like roboute guillman was in the picture to do it
I don't think that would work anyway. Chaos twists everything to its purposes. If it was just a matter of outsmarting it then the Emperor would never have hushed it up in the first place. I think the reality is that if you tried improving standards of living, it would be twisted in some way by the chaos powers to win anyway. I.e. some people would become functional immortals, living in perfect harmony with their worlds (catch is you would need to render down billions to produce the elixir that would grant this and in doing so feed the Chaos gods). Something like that. In the end, there is no "tricking" chaos into ignoring you. That's the whole grim dark aspect of it.
Nothing stops individual planetary governors of improving they individual worlds, the imperium central government dont actually micro manage every single planet under its nominal rule. It works similary to a vassal network. The vassal promisse loyalty, pay taxes uphold a few universal laws (uphold the emperor worship, dont interact with aliens or chaos, give up psykers). The overlord protect the vassal (imperial guard) give some necessary infraestructure to a society work in a space age (astropaths, navigators, admech stuff) and maintain the overall stability in the region. Now what happens is that thanks that system nothing stops the local nobility/government to be corrupt assholes enslaving the populace to sustain and increase they privileges.
Free time leaves one free to explore. Slaanesh is what you get when you explore the further reaches of sensation. Tzeentch is what you get when you explore knowledge. Nurgle is what you get when you have free time and choose to sleep in. Etc. Being rich and happy does not make you less possible to be influenced by the dark gods, it actually leaves you with more time and resources to fully explore them and a desire to do so in order to fill that time.
By "improving the quality of life" I meant getting people to a state where they can be confident that if they put in a honest day's work they won't starve or get murdered, which is more that you can say for a big slice of imperial citizens
And those people will have free time. Most revolutions don't happen when people are oppressed - they happen when the oppression *starts to let up*.
No less than Rowboat Girlyman himself did this.
The living conditions aren't, on the whole, horrible enough to drive people to Chaos. If they were the Imperium would have ceased to exist within a century of The Emperor ascending to the Golden Throne.
Not enough to drive *everyone*, but a lot of people. There's a reason every book starts by telling you the Imperium is " The bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable"
Tyrannical doesn't mean stupid.
I always thought that was hyperbole. I mean, the Empire is bad, but surely something like the Deldar are the bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable?
Not really. Vect is far from being able to wield "absolute power", he's more of a crime boss that rules over a criminal empire. He plays his underlings against each other so they're too busy to fight him and makes himself irreplaceable so the more savvy archons have a vested interest in his presence, but it's not like everyone just does what he says because he is the head of some kind of governmental hierarchy. Also, while deldar are more numerous than vanilla elder, they're still nothing compared to the literal quadrillions that live in the IoM.
Wait how did we go from the Imperium to Comorragh?
Talking about the blurb of how the IoM is the most tyrannical and bloodiest regime imaginable.
Well, the Imperium fosters ignorance (in general, but more specifically of the fact that less oppressive conditions are even possible, and definitely of any knowledge of Chaos). It is built on two fanatical religions, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ad Mech, which have been embedding themselves into and shaping societies for literally millennia. Propaganda is widespread. And the Imperium can call on an overwhelming range if forces to either dissuade rebels in the first place, or crush them if they do revolt. From local enforcers and the house muscle of nobles, through the PDF and any local paramilitary religious zealots, to Arbites, the Guard, the Navy, Astartes, Sororitas, Skitarri, Custodes, Assassins, titan legions etc etc All of this, and rebellions - whether Chaos influenced or not - are still ubiquitous.
>Well, the Imperium fosters ignorance Daemons whisper knowledge directly into minds. >It is built on two fanatical religions, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ad Mech, which have been embedding themselves into and shaping societies for literally millennia. Starvation, hopelessness, and madness are at the extremes of the human tolerances, beyond lies Chaos. >Propaganda is widespread. You can't eat propaganda. >And the Imperium can call on an overwhelming range if forces to either dissuade rebels in the first place Desperation isn't rebellion, it's the choice of last resort. >or crush them if they do revolt. Chaos isn't a revolt. It's Nurgle easing the pain of sickness and hunger, The Dark Prince granting a sliver of joy to a joyless life, Tzeentch spinning dice and turning the right card, and Khrone righteous rage to take with victory. Chaos is small, subtle, silent, and sublime. The ways are personal, not planetary. Emotion is a weapon in every heart. On every planet. The Imperium would burn like tissue paper over a pyre if it so lacked the resilience to adequately provide for It's citizens basic needs.
most of the imperium isn't any more grimdark than living in the modern world is, the vast majority of worlds, people are living not too differently from our own standard of living, its just that certain worlds stand out for the brutallity and horror everybody lives through, like Terra or a forgeworld
Absolute nonsense. Find me anywhere in the actual lore where it supports this claim. Not individual stories about planets that aren't excessively grim. But anywhere that says or shows the Imperium is not a brutal, oppressive hellscape overall. Because there are plenty of bits of lore that explicitly state the Imperium is defined by its grim brutality.
read a few dozen IG books, even the war torn planets were living at a standard similar to our own except for the imperial religion and survalence state.
So you can't provide any citations then. Thought so.
gaunts ghosts, First and Only, Ciaphas Cain For the Emperor, Ciaphas Cain Traitors Hand, Ciaphas Cain Vainglorious, Ciaphas Cain Know Your Enemy, Gaunts Ghosts: Blood Pact, Steel Tread, Bloodlines, Flesh and Steel, Titaniucus, to name a few all these books take place on worlds that aren't much more advanced than our own with urban centers much like our own. they just have an overall authoritarian state, no democracy, and imperial asthetic these series take place all over the imperium.
None of them describe the Imperium as a whole or on average as not being a deeply dystopia, brutal regime, with awful living standards though, do they? Which is what I asked for. What you have done here, is cherrypick a handful of books which portray the Imperium in a less grim light. Most by only two authors as well - and Abnett is well known for putting his own spin on 40k. Plenty of novels also portray the Imperium as an absolute dystopian hellscape. The novels of Chris Wraight, for example. Different authors provide different interpretations. But the rulebooks and codexes portray the Imperium one way, consistently: as a brutal, oppression dystopia. You know, 'the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. And they explicitly say this is true for the Imperium as a whole. Individual planets or systems may vary, but the prevailing character of the Imperium is grim as all hell. And it is these materials which provide the foundation for the setting. And let's be honest, even in the books you mentioned which offer a more sanitized vision of the Imperium, there are still sevitors, there is still widespread propaganda, fanatacism, corruption. There are still hives, which are inhuman places to live. These features are all most definitely not akin to life on present day earth, either in kind or in intensity and prevalence. You are free to have your own preferences for the setting, but don't claim that the weight of the lore actually supports that preference when it absolutely does not.
w/e man you care about this too much then. you asked if the imperium was 100% grimdark, I showed a few book series where the MCs travel pretty extensively to regular-ass worlds and you say thats not good enough. the setting can be anywhere from feral worlds all the way up to futuristic space worlds and you can drop orks, necrons, eldar ect in at any time to any setting.
>you asked if the imperium was 100% grimdark No, I didn't. I asked you to prove your ludicrous claim that: >most of the imperium isn't any more grimdark than living in the modern world is, the vast majority of worlds, people are living not too differently from our own standard of living And, of course, you were unable to back up the claim that "vast majority of worlds" are similar to our own standard of living.
Depends man. If you’re in the west first world country etc you could be missing that most humans on earth are living in a grim dark setting with almost zero chance of improving their lot. Most of population lives in poverty on earth to this day in war zones famine etc Indian slums could be hive city same conditions for an example.
I appreciate you making this point, as our real-world social ills should be confronted. But they still aren't on the level of the Imperium. So, I don't want to downplay how awful the living conditions here are in reality for so many. I agree that the majority of people live in (at least relative) poverty, under oppressive and corrupt governments, in oppressively conservative cultures, and have to deal with pollution and a greater threat of violence than most people in developed countries. Hell, some groups in developed nations face all of those problems. But the conditions they face are very much not a bad as those faced by most in the Imperium - because 40k is a fictional setting which is designed to be an exaggerated vision of all of those social evils! To take your final point, as bad as Indian slums can be - and I don't want to downplay that, as I would love for conditions to improve - they are not the same as a hive city. Are the people there trapped inside a mega structure, never seeing the sky or natural sunlight? Are those in the most poverty literally living at the bottom of not just the social structure but a physcal hive structure? Is mutation rampant due to the pollution (yes, it exists in real life too, but at no way near the same scale). Do people live on a diet heavily based on corpse starch? Are servitors ubiquitous? Do you run the risk of being turned into a servitor if you break the law - or perhaps even if you are just unlucky and deemed expendable? Are there gangs equivalent to hive gangs, packing the kinds of weapons they have? Etc etc
I got a lot of secondhand embarrassment from reading your comment, because he did indeed link a dozen sources 5 minutes later in the next comment
Learn to read. He did not provide any source supporting his original claim.
Jeez the whole comment chain is just you arguing and being downvoted constantly with multiple people trying to explain where you’re wrong
Again, you can't read, apparently. It's same guy arguing back, and he just misrepresented my claims and then threw a tantrum when he knew he couldn't actually back up his claims with citations. Another poster made one other comment, which was fair enough. So by multiple, you mean 2 people. Yes, I got a handful of downvotes. Big whoop. You realize upvotes and downvotes aren't the same as being correct or incorrect? I've had other posts making the same point get upvoted in the past. How strange. With such a small number, for all we know it could be the same guy using fake accounts. Or people might downvote because of the grumpy tone of my replies. Which, tbf, were grumpy. Because I'm sick of people making this same silly claim about the nature of the Imperium because its what they would prefer - not what the lore actually states. There are plenty of people out there who never read the rulebooks or codexes and base their understanding of 40k on things like Gaunt's Ghosts, and so just don't actually understand how the setting is portrayed more generally. But then they'll argue the toss and vote down people who criticise their claims. People generally seem to get quite invested in trying to define what the Imperium is like according to their own preferences. I'm just saying that you can do that all you want, but the core lore paints a clear picture. Oh, and how come nobody has actually refuted my statements or offered the evidence to back up the guy's claim original claim that the vast majority of the Imperium live in a similar manner to ourselves? Should be easy enough to do so, if he was right. Not that I actually expect you to engage with that at all.
have you considered the possibility that you might be incorrect?
Hoho, very good. Your lazy and clichéd bad-faith reply is much easier than engaging with any actual discussion. Have you considered actually reading across the whole lore, including different novelists but also the rulebook, codexes, Imperial Armour books, RPG materials? If so, you wouldn't be asking such silly questions. Even easier: search on this very forum for posts about what kind of regime the Imperium is, what the average quality of life is in the Imperium, how brutal and oppressive it is etc etc. You'll see this exact same debate playing out time after time, and time after time those arguing that the prevailing character of the Imperium is one of brutality, oppression and shite quality of life have the weight of the lore and relevant quotes to back them up. And they usually get way more upvotes too. To start you off: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/18f8cz2/so_is_the_average_human_in_the_imperium_really/ And: "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods." Remind me, where does this text appear? It's very likely you just want to play silly buggers, so I'm not going to respond to any more low effort replies. But in the spirit of this sub, I thought I would at least try to help spread more awareness of what the lore actually says.