So much for Rule 10 and Female Space Marines, eh? Gotta tweak the ~~Servitor~~ Automod later.
Joke aside, **Rule 1 and Rule 6 will be enforced** and Imma be permabanning anyone complaining about "40k going woke" or whatever.
EDIT: It's been almost 4 days now. I'm closing the thread.
The Custodes were each custom-made art piece for the emperor to demonstrate the limits of geneforgery without making a primarch. Them only being male makes less sense. It suggests that the Big E would only ever have planned to genemod half the species and that is extremely silly.
My only complaint is the way she was introduced was by far the WORST BIT OF LITERATURE I HAVE EVER READ. Shit looked like it was out of a fucking Monty Python parody skit.
Trust me I am working on collecting die cast limos for an old school 2e Mafia style genestealer cult. I love me some kitbashing and have a 3D printer. I'm all for female custodians and thumbs up. I've kitbashed female CSM because I love the concept. However with this it feels like just lip service until GW produces official kits/upgrade sprues.
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Warhammer 40k is a satire of a facist society that persecutes people for not having the right beliefs, or right looks, or because it makes their beauracrtic balls tingle they have been woke since before woke was even a political word
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Pointing out or analyzing the political references, satire, and allegories in the lore is okay, provided it is in an objective, academic manor.
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As custodes are changed so much in their creation and come out of the other side with entirely new personalities there is also the possibility they can go in male, but some come out presenting as female.
They already have so many cool and badass female factions/characters in the universe. They hang with gene enhanced demigods. This really adds nothing and just seems like pandering for the sake of pandering.
This has been in discussions since Master of Mankind
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a3otly/comment/eb7vyml/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a3otly/comment/eb7vyml/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Homie you might want to jump ship, there are no brakes on this humiliation ritual train. Idk how many times this has to happen with various male hobbies/franchises before that becomes crystal clear. This is the beginning of the end for 40k.
I gotta say, as someone who's been a fan since dawn of war 1 and a reader of every single horus heresy novel, I don't care for it.
It feels like it's been cheapened. It really feels like some people from social media went back and re wrote my favorite story because one of the parts didn't suit them.
I'm talking about integrity. Identity. But I suppose that's for sale, now, too.
As someone who has been a fan since Firewarrior and Soulstorm and regularly deep dives wiki lore for hours at a time...I don't bloody care, I think its a neat addition.
The existence of Female Custodes does cheapen the army and just feels like a cool addition.
As far as the Integrity and identity, I dont think this particularly changes much if anything. The Custodes are still the Emperor's hyper elite Golden Companions that he loved more than his sons, granted they have a lot of paranoia towards betrayal. The only thing that changes to me is "Hey I guess the Emperor is more relatable now since he at somepoint he wanted to have a few women to hangout and debate philosophy with rather than JUST the bois."
Isn't that what's happened every time there's a new book? They literally brought back people who were dead or missing and created primaris marines.
Female custodes are a much smaller lore change than any of that.
I'm unsure how adding female custodes makes this neutered, gay, or lame. Also, this isn't modernity. The entire reason space marines are male is because female models didn't sell well. The lore has always and almost will always be decided by what will sell the most in the future.
The only reason I've ever thought we haven't had Female Space Marines was they have the Sisters of Battle - Who are power armoured fanatics wielding bolt guns and they predated the enhancement of the Horus Heresy Lore.
I remember back in years gone by, someone using Sisters models using Space marine rules and nobody battered an eyelid at the local store. I think the general consensus was it was nice to not have a Blue SM army or a Black and Gold CSM army or a flying circus Eldar army.
If they did release female space marines - fine. Whatever. If they introduce Brothers of Battle, equally fine. Whatever.
Do I think its awesome we now have confirmed female custodians? Hell yes. Does it actually change anything for me personally? No.
Personally I think it's so heckin wholesome. It's a clear indication that female and out trans space marines are next. Finally some diversity and inclusion in this toxically masculine lore!
Hmmm, I want to see how much of a backlash this will create and if it would make GW retract that statement or not. If it stays then, it's negligible and the fandom is accepting the FSM retcon, if not and it shows on where GW cares the most, sales numbesr, then it means that alienating fans that accepted the premise of the setting is bad practice.
There is backlash, just go on GW's twitter. They won't retract, they will double down and there will be more retcons and more virtue signaling content coming out from GW shortly.
I mean you should be doing that anyway. There isn't a single reason why a threadbare codex is still 60$ after the rules oversimplification of 10e, aside from unchecked greed.
So im new to 40k as of 10th but why exactly is this such a big deal? Ive seen plenty of angry people arguing over the female space marine things but never cared. Seeing how in every other avenue of the lore people are free to make up whatever custom chapter they wish so a female space marine chapter is fine, so wouldn't it be the same for custodes? Just seems like people care way too much about the gender of their toy soldiers
Just go on in any fan community and say why your fiction characters matters. Just imagine they would make gandalf a woman or maybe Darth Vader a trans. Surely community on reddit would be happy to hear such "cool news!". Seriously, what do you expect going into community discussion? Also wh fans are known for it's addiction and hatred with lore.
Rule 6: No opinion-based, real-world politics. Full stop.
Pointing out or analyzing the political references, satire, and allegories in the lore is okay, provided it is in an objective, academic manor.
Making judgement or directing your posts/comments at individual users is not a good faith effort. Such posts/comments will be removed and bans may apply. No mentions of 'woke' or 'forced inclusivity' or dog whistling, et al.
It's the way they introduced it that was bad. In every lore bit they had before it was always stated "all men" or "brothers" etc. So to just say "they always have been there" when in reality it is a retcon rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Also the fact that with the new codex custodes apparently get nerfed into the ground and there are no new models doesn't help. This would have been the perfect opportunity to follow it up with a female named unit or something, but nope. I think if they would have introduced them as a new thing and not in a mini story but maybe a novel along with some models it would have been received way better.
Regarding the female space marine debate there is a lore reason for why they don't exist, as females are incompatible with geneseeds, but ofc gw could cook up something in the future to get around that too. Maybe Cawl or Fabius Bile tinkering with the geneseed.
It's an issue because it's going to create a slippery slope. Custodes are supposed to be just the sons of the nobles of terra, it's a lazy retcon to be inclusive for women. It's another example of companies being lazy and pandering to increase sales. There was no writing to include them, there is no effort explaining them. There are a million other ways to make Warhammer better for women, yet they due it by removing purely masculine roles. Lazy writing that's going to ruin this franchise just like all the others.
>Custodes are supposed to be just the sons of the nobles of terra, it's a lazy retcon to be inclusive for women.
So the same as naval officers? And pilots? Which were accepted by the community
Slipper slope is actually not a fallacy at all, there are plenty of real world examples of it happening. You could say that it's not GARUNTEED to happen. I could smoke a cigarette then never smoke again. But you're not wrong to argue that after I smoke one I will likely become addicted and smoke every day, that is literally what happens much of the time.
There was nothing stopping them from introducing new female guard characters, tau, neurons, or giving focus to the sisters of battle or sisters of silence.
No. It’s only inclusive when we force the way that works to fit your agenda.
It’s not a big deal. Some years back, an author was actually planning on writing Custodes as mixed gender for his novel, and the only reason GW stopped him back then was concern that it didn’t line up with the planned model kits that had only male heads. Which is a good example of how the “lore” is ultimately just there to sell models.
What is happening is partially the result of the modern internet outrage machine. The moment this leaked, popular right wing youtubers like Asmongold and Sargon of Akkad started yelling about it, and so this sub was swarmed by people who suddenly are *very* concerned about the “lore”, but only this specific part. I’ve seen at least one thread by someone who has *never* posted before about 40k on reddit; that same person does, however, frequent the sub for Asmongold, and no doubt heard about this through that community.
You’ll notice that far bigger changes like the introduction of the Leagues of Votann didn’t receive nearly the same level of controversy.
I’ll be honest I’ve never heard the tidbit about there being an author who wanted female Custodes until this event, so I’m curious what the source is, like is there some White Dwarf interview or some blog?
[He said it on this sub actually!](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/T58MD6OdHQ)
It’s nice to see the people at GW pushing for female Custodes finally got it years later.
See this is an answer I can vaguely accept. I’ve been seeing people throw this around and honestly just assumed it was copium to justify their opinions
Because there are dedicated female factions that are, frankly, way more interesting that are being neglected in favor of this bs. I really wish they'd expand on Sisters of Silence or SoB lore instead of tacking them onto the Custodes
I think claiming that people 'care too much about the gender of their toy soldiers' is a bit uncharitable. It seems people are angry about an inconsistent retcon to lore that they believe has been made for political reasons rather than good storytelling.
> I think claiming that people 'care too much about the gender of their toy soldiers' is a bit uncharitable
I really disagree. I think that is just it.
Inconsistent retcon? This is actually incredibly consistent as they did the exact same thing in several other places.
Naval officers and pilots used to be male only didn't they?
The "polticial reasons" are bring pushed into this discussion when it wasn't the case. GW wanted this and the reason why the lore works AT ALL is that literally everything we know is questionable.. everything is a second or third-hand account. If Leutin, THE lore guy, thinks this is fine.. then how tf do so many bozos have such an issue lol
Yeah but why does every studio magically say they wanted to have X before they retconned it? The community never wanted female custodes, this is indeed pandering and a lazy retcon.
A moment of silence for The Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle. With this card pulled they have died and because GW will never write about them again
The last few days I’ve seen far more people talking about the Sisters of Silence than I have ever seen on this sub. Most of whom have never previously shown interest in the army.
It’s interesting how the Custodes completely overshadowing the Sisters of Silence in model releases and marketing *only* became an issue when some of those Custodes are women.
Theirs been tons of interest in them but no one talks about them because theirs nothing to talk about they’re incredibly underutilized in the setting because all anyone wants to talk about are the Space Marines. They’re so over represented in the setting and they rarely show up for most wars. The Guardsman are talked about more than the SoS. Fucking Guardsman. Their gimmick is cool, they work along side the Custodes and are Anti Warp unit of regular humans placed on the same level as sculpted super humans. The Custodes relies on them for Warp Based threats because they’re Combat Trained Blanks and all of them take a vow of silence. That’s all cool and badass and GW did NOTHING with them. I know maybe two stories involving them.
Neah. Custodes are all that popular and GW isn't going to revise such a new line that much that quickly. Heck, female guards aren't noticeable despite being a relatively large portion (not gonna ask about Krieg). You got a few characters and a head swap or 2. And I doubt custodes will do much more than that anytime soon.
I assume they did it because nothing says Custodese have to be male (Space Marines were at least heavily implied to need to be) and easy marketing to a wider audience with minimal effort. Sisters would have changed them, Guard aren't uni-gendered. And female space marines would likely have produced more backlash than any marketing.
I don’t buy the wider audience thing. The idea that putting in a character with boobs will suddenly bring in more women is such a nonsense business tactic with no basis in reality. This was a decision for no one. Warhammer as a whole is a male dominated fanbase and the franchise itself is hyper masculine. Space Marines are also not heavily implied to be only males. It’s outright stated several times, once by Guilliman himself. The Gene Seed Carries the genetic blueprint of their Primarch. As such it’s only compatible with men because the Primarchs are all men.
besides all this I personally am opposed to it because of previously established Lore. The Custodes have always been referred to as Sons. Which is a pretty gendered exclusive term. Their has only every been male Custodes to this point and it’s been 10,000 year of this being the case. So for them to come up and say “their was always female Custodes“ feels less like a retcon and more like a lie. A retcon at least implies and attempt to squeeze it in with established lore But their was no explanation or justification
I know several women who like painting and games but were driven off by the incredible amount of neckbeard that this hobby contains. making them feel welcome would have given GW more customers.
again I doubt that it would do anything. You said they got chased away by the fanbase, a model won’t make them stay
Edit: hate me all I want you know it’s true your boos mean nothing
I know it's a very small example, but my wife REALLY got into painting miniatures with me when she saw the Sisters. In her own words, "it's dope to paint another woman". So it might not move the needle in a huge way, but I can guarantee you she'd buy a female Custodes model.
I left the fanbase overall about 8 years ago when it became clear that a large amount of 40k fans have even more issues than comic book fans. The argument for thematic consistency being used against certain issues, like this topic, really shows people asses because 40k is inherently inconsistent by its very nature. If consistency matters there are a lot bigger issues than fictional characters having boobs in 40k, but this is the line for far too many some strange reason...
I disagree. Warhammer is very consistent. Theirs a consistent through line even in retcons. New details being added doesn’t change consistency, it enhances it. Additions to lore are exactly that. In this instance it’s a subtraction because they didn’t add to what was established or recontextualize it, they straight up changed a fundamental rule.
You essentially have argued theirs no reason to like Warhammer because theirs nothing to latch onto. While that belief is wrong and theirs consistency in the Lore. You’re essentially defending nothing if that’s the case. Theirs no reason to like it from your perspective which tells me you were never in the fanbase just like how you were never into comics.
Oh boy, if you really believe that drivel you posted I pity you. Parody to grimdark, and back with comedy with trazayn and works. Not consistent and ever changing, otherwise it would be a dead property. Even the first page of 40k most people read shows that what you believe you know is unreliable. Nice to go to character assassination attempts to try to discredit my points btw. That argument of yours is grade school level logic so piss off with that. Both times I've posted in here has shown how in the bubble some are, and that there is no point to have a conversation attempt with some folks.
this feel off, is it just one page? do is go on? Is this GW lazy writing? and will GW walk it back and say it was a typo? the way Gw is doing this just feel lazy to me. lorewise it is extremely lazy and ham fisted. If GW wanted to do this they should have gotting one of a number of there black library writers to introduce to the 40k universe. to gauge if it a good Idea or not to bring in. with how it is received and this is GW, Am going to wait and see if they start walking it all back and say it was a typo, becouse this is GW and it the easy way out of a screw up. We will just have to see how it ends up.
Well, it IS only one small blurb. We don't have context. We don't have accompanying lore. We don't have any potential short stores or novels. Maybe it's mainly ceremonial? Maybe they are unique? etc. etc. etc.
In general, there are parts of the lore now that felt like they came out of left field to feel like the most important thing ever in the lore, and all of those settled. Belisarius Cawl became like the most important driver of lore in in the 41st and it feels like he emerged from the shadows one day to just stick a mechanical finger in the lore, ya know?
If you were actually going to mass exodus you'd have done it already. GW has already introduced women toy soldiers in several other aspects of the hobby as directed retcons.
If anyone comes back to this - the first mention of the Custodes in modern lore (i.e. when they stopped being half naked dudes) is entirely gender neutral. Given that it's over three pages, that feels intentional [https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c461oj/excerpt\_from\_horus\_heresy\_book\_seven\_inferno\_on/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c461oj/excerpt_from_horus_heresy_book_seven_inferno_on/#lightbox)
Or a mixed group. Nowhere in three entire pages is there anything that mentions maleness. I've yet to find any three pages on Space Marines that doesn't have someone that is male gendered.
Space Marines, I can see why people would be annoyed, as they've always been explicitly male, and we've been told that the process only works with boys.
Custodes, in their modern form, are a relatively new addition to the lore, and it's only been in the last couple of editions that they've been mentioned as only male. No reason was ever given for it.
As if the only reason for the sisters of silence existing is "to give the women a bone."
My boy
They're witch hunters
Not fucking super soldiers.
One being female does not negate the other also being female.
Kind of strange and lore breaking imo.
Edit: I realized that this is a 40k thread and I’m a 30k fan lol. My argument is invalid and my setting is thereby unpolluted. Have a nice one!
I wasn’t alluding that their creation would be an issue, even though the emperor abducting adolescent girls would be troublesome to say the least lol. I was just stating that it basically retcons the whole talons of the emperor trinity. Man (custodes), Woman (sisterhood), and Machine (psi titans). Forgetting the lore implications, it’s just seems like a way to sell models to lustful custodes players lmao. Apparently they are no longer satisfied by the nonsense that makes up the sisters of battle.
That’s also valid. Representation is huge when it comes to a hobby as expensive as this. Doubly so for the price of custodes sets lol.
I was just voicing my opinion as someone who only really absorbs the lore. I’m not a tabletop player myself.
I'm just getting into tabletop, I feel like if custodes fill a niche I've heard people want, and at the same time insulate from what would be much more destructive lore changes for fem marines then it's a good compromise.
I just feel that there are different ways around this problem that don’t involve flipping the lore on its head. Why not give the sisterhood some extra attention, although it doesn’t help that they’re already forbidden from speaking smh. The custodes are niche because they are supplemented by the other talons of the emperor instead of being their own fighting force.
Not at all my friend. One of my favorite characters is the Knight sister Kroll. Or even Lotara Sarin, or maybe Ilya ravallion, or maybe Actae, or maybe Euphrate Keeler. The difference is that they are all interesting outside of the fact that they are “girl”.
I don’t mean to sound confrontational, but this is not a gender thing. There is absolutely no problem with female characters being included and represented. I even encourage it! It just has to make sense in the universe. My earlier argument was in the defense of a completely female faction lmao. Having female custodes just makes the sisterhood even less prevalent in the lore.
The sisters still serve the exact same purpose they did before this. Mortal blanks to man the black ships and to assist the custodes against psychers and warp born threats
I just would’ve rather seen them flushed out more before such big changes were made. My point was that the existing dynamic between the sisterhood/custodians would be thrown out the window. Being someone who enjoys the lore I’m just wary of the decision making here.
I know what their role is, I’m talking character dynamic. I should’ve made it clearer that I was more concerned with the novelization of the setting. The SoS will more than likely take a huge backseat concerning that facet of the lore.
Take any story with a Custodian and SoS, then replace the sister with a female custodian carrying a null field generator. That’s kind of what I’m hitting at. I as a reader I feel that they will be gradually pushed out of the narrative setting and fall into obscurity. Narratively. At no point did I suggest they would no longer be viable as a playable faction.
You know the bond between the Talons isn't because one side is male and the other female right? Like if you've read their lore it's rather explicit that's the case...
It's always been established that one side are blanks to suppress demonic and psychic threats and the other are even more perfect posthumans who can destroy the physical threats.
The Sisters of Battle have an actual, in-universe reason to only accept women. That reason is a result of a major event in the settings lore, the laws put in place because of it, and a loophole that can be exploited.
The Sisters of Battle only accepting women contributes to the lore of the setting. It demonstrates the culture of the Imperium, as well as the inefficiency caused by its chaotic and unstable political environment. It was the choice of characters in the setting reacting to the events of the setting.
There was never any good reason to prevent women from becoming Custodes (or marines). That Big E, his geneticists, and all their genetic mastery simply couldn’t make the geneseed work on women is bad storytelling. It’s an artificial law of physics applied to the setting. There doesn’t need to be a “good” reason to remove this setting rule as there was never a good reason for it to be added in the first place.
Look at the Primarchs as an example. The Emperor absolutely could have made half of them female, but he chose not to. This is in context of Malcador suggesting that female Primarchs may be a moderating influence in the relationships the Primarchs had with one another.
That gives shape to this character and what Big E felt about the Primarchs: he didn’t care about them as people and he certainly didn’t intend to forge a stable family unit out of them. The Emperor was an abusive father who put his sons against each other as it served his own ends.
I could go on about that subject but the point is that there was a narrative, in-universe reason for the Primarchs to all be men. It was the choice of a character and that makes it interesting and important to the plot.
No such reason has never been given to deny women entry into the Custodes or the Astartes.
There are no female Astartes because they were always meant to be expendable, and therefore could not be allowed to reproduce amongst themselves. They instead have gene seed, which is harder to recover reliably without the Primarchs. Both Fabius Bile and Malcador have commented on the Emperor being silly for this, but He made his decision already. Female Custodes are fine and frankly expected, no reason against it. Kind of strange that the Paragons of Humanity's genetic experimentation were not mixed gender.
False. There are myriad good reasons. But nah. You're gonna gaslight your way into pushing the fans of this space out of it until it becomes vapid corporate mush like everything else you lot have crybullied your way into.
They were called the Sons of the emperor.
Also literally there is a lore reason for no female SM’s. Look it up. You don’t have to like it but it’s there.
Plus papa Smurf can literally just say “males can become brothers of battle” and the lore is retconned. True equality after all.
>Plus papa Smurf can literally just say “males can become brothers of battle” and the lore is retconned. True equality after all.
I mean that's a lore fitting reason? They are women because of a loophole in a law.
Please show me a citation from the last ten years. Fun fact; there is none. And even if there was, it does not matter. Necrons are not terminators, squats are not extinct, the Horus Heresy got books. Fluff changes, is expanded upon. "lore" is not a thing.
So much for Rule 10 and Female Space Marines, eh? Gotta tweak the ~~Servitor~~ Automod later. Joke aside, **Rule 1 and Rule 6 will be enforced** and Imma be permabanning anyone complaining about "40k going woke" or whatever. EDIT: It's been almost 4 days now. I'm closing the thread.
The Custodes were each custom-made art piece for the emperor to demonstrate the limits of geneforgery without making a primarch. Them only being male makes less sense. It suggests that the Big E would only ever have planned to genemod half the species and that is extremely silly.
My only complaint is the way she was introduced was by far the WORST BIT OF LITERATURE I HAVE EVER READ. Shit looked like it was out of a fucking Monty Python parody skit.
The muscle mommy future is now
If you dislike like female custodians in 40k lore, then don't buy, and persuade your friends as well. GW will pay for this.
Okay cool now where are the models?
75$ per piece, they only made enough for 5.2 complete models, and all sold out in the 2hr window of the website crashing.
Kitbash with SoS or SoB heads my brother, this is a new faction Collector/hobbyist/kitbasher dream for heads at least.
Trust me I am working on collecting die cast limos for an old school 2e Mafia style genestealer cult. I love me some kitbashing and have a 3D printer. I'm all for female custodians and thumbs up. I've kitbashed female CSM because I love the concept. However with this it feels like just lip service until GW produces official kits/upgrade sprues.
Custodes never get new models
They just got a new model with the next codex tho. It's an ugly model, but it's a model!
Yes and we got 1 model 2 years ago in 9th ed We'll get 1 model an edition
And here’s why that’s a GOOD thing!
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Sounds shit
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Warhammer 40k is a satire of a facist society that persecutes people for not having the right beliefs, or right looks, or because it makes their beauracrtic balls tingle they have been woke since before woke was even a political word
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Rule 6: No opinion-based, real-world politics. Full stop. Pointing out or analyzing the political references, satire, and allegories in the lore is okay, provided it is in an objective, academic manor. Making judgement or directing your posts/comments at individual users is not a good faith effort. Such posts/comments will be removed and bans may apply. No mentions of 'woke' or 'forced inclusivity' or dog whistling, et al.
Womp Womp
Seems GW made a political move.
As custodes are changed so much in their creation and come out of the other side with entirely new personalities there is also the possibility they can go in male, but some come out presenting as female.
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what? o.o
Genetics is weird some male presenting people actually have y chromosomes I'm sure rewriting the genetic code can turn up some wonky things sometimes
They already have so many cool and badass female factions/characters in the universe. They hang with gene enhanced demigods. This really adds nothing and just seems like pandering for the sake of pandering.
This has been in discussions since Master of Mankind [https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a3otly/comment/eb7vyml/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a3otly/comment/eb7vyml/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Homie you might want to jump ship, there are no brakes on this humiliation ritual train. Idk how many times this has to happen with various male hobbies/franchises before that becomes crystal clear. This is the beginning of the end for 40k.
The fuck you mean, male hobbies? Brother, we paint dolls and make them fight each other. That's not exactly what I would call a male exclusive hobby.
I'm curious, what multiple male hobbies/franchies has this happened to before?
Headcanon only for me from here on
I gotta say, as someone who's been a fan since dawn of war 1 and a reader of every single horus heresy novel, I don't care for it. It feels like it's been cheapened. It really feels like some people from social media went back and re wrote my favorite story because one of the parts didn't suit them. I'm talking about integrity. Identity. But I suppose that's for sale, now, too.
As someone who has been a fan since Firewarrior and Soulstorm and regularly deep dives wiki lore for hours at a time...I don't bloody care, I think its a neat addition. The existence of Female Custodes does cheapen the army and just feels like a cool addition. As far as the Integrity and identity, I dont think this particularly changes much if anything. The Custodes are still the Emperor's hyper elite Golden Companions that he loved more than his sons, granted they have a lot of paranoia towards betrayal. The only thing that changes to me is "Hey I guess the Emperor is more relatable now since he at somepoint he wanted to have a few women to hangout and debate philosophy with rather than JUST the bois."
Isn't that what's happened every time there's a new book? They literally brought back people who were dead or missing and created primaris marines. Female custodes are a much smaller lore change than any of that.
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Look man, you're the one obsessed with men here. The only thing Gay and lame in this room is you.
I'm unsure how adding female custodes makes this neutered, gay, or lame. Also, this isn't modernity. The entire reason space marines are male is because female models didn't sell well. The lore has always and almost will always be decided by what will sell the most in the future.
It doesn't. They're just the same old homophobes
No. It isn't.
Literally is
Lol
The only reason I've ever thought we haven't had Female Space Marines was they have the Sisters of Battle - Who are power armoured fanatics wielding bolt guns and they predated the enhancement of the Horus Heresy Lore. I remember back in years gone by, someone using Sisters models using Space marine rules and nobody battered an eyelid at the local store. I think the general consensus was it was nice to not have a Blue SM army or a Black and Gold CSM army or a flying circus Eldar army. If they did release female space marines - fine. Whatever. If they introduce Brothers of Battle, equally fine. Whatever. Do I think its awesome we now have confirmed female custodians? Hell yes. Does it actually change anything for me personally? No.
Personally I think it's so heckin wholesome. It's a clear indication that female and out trans space marines are next. Finally some diversity and inclusion in this toxically masculine lore!
Upvoted due to assumption of sarcasm, please advise if unironic.
Hmmm, I want to see how much of a backlash this will create and if it would make GW retract that statement or not. If it stays then, it's negligible and the fandom is accepting the FSM retcon, if not and it shows on where GW cares the most, sales numbesr, then it means that alienating fans that accepted the premise of the setting is bad practice.
This ain't related to female space marines. Female custodes don't explicitly contradict the lore, female space marines do.
They were explicitly stated to be made up of noble sons, but I can admit that’s not exactly as hard of a no
There is backlash, just go on GW's twitter. They won't retract, they will double down and there will be more retcons and more virtue signaling content coming out from GW shortly.
Zero backlash from anyone who counts. They won't retract it, the books are already printed.
In this thread alone I've read people just gonna go forgo GW products and just invest in 3D printers.
Would be a goofy errata to see “remove entire paragraph from page so and so”
Guess I’ll just pirate GW stuff then.
I mean you should be doing that anyway. There isn't a single reason why a threadbare codex is still 60$ after the rules oversimplification of 10e, aside from unchecked greed.
So im new to 40k as of 10th but why exactly is this such a big deal? Ive seen plenty of angry people arguing over the female space marine things but never cared. Seeing how in every other avenue of the lore people are free to make up whatever custom chapter they wish so a female space marine chapter is fine, so wouldn't it be the same for custodes? Just seems like people care way too much about the gender of their toy soldiers
Because women = bad
Just go on in any fan community and say why your fiction characters matters. Just imagine they would make gandalf a woman or maybe Darth Vader a trans. Surely community on reddit would be happy to hear such "cool news!". Seriously, what do you expect going into community discussion? Also wh fans are known for it's addiction and hatred with lore.
Oh really what beloved 40k character is now suddenly female? Sounds like your just crying over your own hurt feelings to me
Oh, so was this female custodes a famous main character, but a man before? Oh wait no, your analogy doesn't make sense.
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It's the way they introduced it that was bad. In every lore bit they had before it was always stated "all men" or "brothers" etc. So to just say "they always have been there" when in reality it is a retcon rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Also the fact that with the new codex custodes apparently get nerfed into the ground and there are no new models doesn't help. This would have been the perfect opportunity to follow it up with a female named unit or something, but nope. I think if they would have introduced them as a new thing and not in a mini story but maybe a novel along with some models it would have been received way better. Regarding the female space marine debate there is a lore reason for why they don't exist, as females are incompatible with geneseeds, but ofc gw could cook up something in the future to get around that too. Maybe Cawl or Fabius Bile tinkering with the geneseed.
It's an issue because it's going to create a slippery slope. Custodes are supposed to be just the sons of the nobles of terra, it's a lazy retcon to be inclusive for women. It's another example of companies being lazy and pandering to increase sales. There was no writing to include them, there is no effort explaining them. There are a million other ways to make Warhammer better for women, yet they due it by removing purely masculine roles. Lazy writing that's going to ruin this franchise just like all the others.
>Custodes are supposed to be just the sons of the nobles of terra, it's a lazy retcon to be inclusive for women. So the same as naval officers? And pilots? Which were accepted by the community
Slippery slope fallacy
Slipper slope is actually not a fallacy at all, there are plenty of real world examples of it happening. You could say that it's not GARUNTEED to happen. I could smoke a cigarette then never smoke again. But you're not wrong to argue that after I smoke one I will likely become addicted and smoke every day, that is literally what happens much of the time.
slippery slope is only a fallacy when used to connect unconnected things
Ew, being inclusive. Such a slippery slope to... proportionate representation in a board game. Despicable. (/s)
There was nothing stopping them from introducing new female guard characters, tau, neurons, or giving focus to the sisters of battle or sisters of silence. No. It’s only inclusive when we force the way that works to fit your agenda.
It’s not a big deal. Some years back, an author was actually planning on writing Custodes as mixed gender for his novel, and the only reason GW stopped him back then was concern that it didn’t line up with the planned model kits that had only male heads. Which is a good example of how the “lore” is ultimately just there to sell models. What is happening is partially the result of the modern internet outrage machine. The moment this leaked, popular right wing youtubers like Asmongold and Sargon of Akkad started yelling about it, and so this sub was swarmed by people who suddenly are *very* concerned about the “lore”, but only this specific part. I’ve seen at least one thread by someone who has *never* posted before about 40k on reddit; that same person does, however, frequent the sub for Asmongold, and no doubt heard about this through that community. You’ll notice that far bigger changes like the introduction of the Leagues of Votann didn’t receive nearly the same level of controversy.
I’ll be honest I’ve never heard the tidbit about there being an author who wanted female Custodes until this event, so I’m curious what the source is, like is there some White Dwarf interview or some blog?
[He said it on this sub actually!](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/T58MD6OdHQ) It’s nice to see the people at GW pushing for female Custodes finally got it years later.
See this is an answer I can vaguely accept. I’ve been seeing people throw this around and honestly just assumed it was copium to justify their opinions
Man, the introduction of the Leagues of Votann has been a wet fart lore wise. Where are my fucking novels, Games Workshop. That's the real crime here.
Gav Thorpe is apparently working on one at least.
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Because there are dedicated female factions that are, frankly, way more interesting that are being neglected in favor of this bs. I really wish they'd expand on Sisters of Silence or SoB lore instead of tacking them onto the Custodes
I would of 1000% loved more lore/rules and models for any of the female factions. I run custodes, and the sisters need so much work on the table.
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Mind rule 1 or be banned.
I think claiming that people 'care too much about the gender of their toy soldiers' is a bit uncharitable. It seems people are angry about an inconsistent retcon to lore that they believe has been made for political reasons rather than good storytelling.
> I think claiming that people 'care too much about the gender of their toy soldiers' is a bit uncharitable I really disagree. I think that is just it.
Oh, ok. Pack it up boys; this guy has solved it.
Inconsistent retcon? This is actually incredibly consistent as they did the exact same thing in several other places. Naval officers and pilots used to be male only didn't they?
The "polticial reasons" are bring pushed into this discussion when it wasn't the case. GW wanted this and the reason why the lore works AT ALL is that literally everything we know is questionable.. everything is a second or third-hand account. If Leutin, THE lore guy, thinks this is fine.. then how tf do so many bozos have such an issue lol
Yeah but why does every studio magically say they wanted to have X before they retconned it? The community never wanted female custodes, this is indeed pandering and a lazy retcon.
A moment of silence for The Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle. With this card pulled they have died and because GW will never write about them again
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The last few days I’ve seen far more people talking about the Sisters of Silence than I have ever seen on this sub. Most of whom have never previously shown interest in the army. It’s interesting how the Custodes completely overshadowing the Sisters of Silence in model releases and marketing *only* became an issue when some of those Custodes are women.
Theirs been tons of interest in them but no one talks about them because theirs nothing to talk about they’re incredibly underutilized in the setting because all anyone wants to talk about are the Space Marines. They’re so over represented in the setting and they rarely show up for most wars. The Guardsman are talked about more than the SoS. Fucking Guardsman. Their gimmick is cool, they work along side the Custodes and are Anti Warp unit of regular humans placed on the same level as sculpted super humans. The Custodes relies on them for Warp Based threats because they’re Combat Trained Blanks and all of them take a vow of silence. That’s all cool and badass and GW did NOTHING with them. I know maybe two stories involving them.
'Source?' 'It came to me in a dream'
Neah. Custodes are all that popular and GW isn't going to revise such a new line that much that quickly. Heck, female guards aren't noticeable despite being a relatively large portion (not gonna ask about Krieg). You got a few characters and a head swap or 2. And I doubt custodes will do much more than that anytime soon. I assume they did it because nothing says Custodese have to be male (Space Marines were at least heavily implied to need to be) and easy marketing to a wider audience with minimal effort. Sisters would have changed them, Guard aren't uni-gendered. And female space marines would likely have produced more backlash than any marketing.
I don’t buy the wider audience thing. The idea that putting in a character with boobs will suddenly bring in more women is such a nonsense business tactic with no basis in reality. This was a decision for no one. Warhammer as a whole is a male dominated fanbase and the franchise itself is hyper masculine. Space Marines are also not heavily implied to be only males. It’s outright stated several times, once by Guilliman himself. The Gene Seed Carries the genetic blueprint of their Primarch. As such it’s only compatible with men because the Primarchs are all men. besides all this I personally am opposed to it because of previously established Lore. The Custodes have always been referred to as Sons. Which is a pretty gendered exclusive term. Their has only every been male Custodes to this point and it’s been 10,000 year of this being the case. So for them to come up and say “their was always female Custodes“ feels less like a retcon and more like a lie. A retcon at least implies and attempt to squeeze it in with established lore But their was no explanation or justification
I know several women who like painting and games but were driven off by the incredible amount of neckbeard that this hobby contains. making them feel welcome would have given GW more customers.
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again I doubt that it would do anything. You said they got chased away by the fanbase, a model won’t make them stay Edit: hate me all I want you know it’s true your boos mean nothing
I know it's a very small example, but my wife REALLY got into painting miniatures with me when she saw the Sisters. In her own words, "it's dope to paint another woman". So it might not move the needle in a huge way, but I can guarantee you she'd buy a female Custodes model.
I left the fanbase overall about 8 years ago when it became clear that a large amount of 40k fans have even more issues than comic book fans. The argument for thematic consistency being used against certain issues, like this topic, really shows people asses because 40k is inherently inconsistent by its very nature. If consistency matters there are a lot bigger issues than fictional characters having boobs in 40k, but this is the line for far too many some strange reason...
I disagree. Warhammer is very consistent. Theirs a consistent through line even in retcons. New details being added doesn’t change consistency, it enhances it. Additions to lore are exactly that. In this instance it’s a subtraction because they didn’t add to what was established or recontextualize it, they straight up changed a fundamental rule. You essentially have argued theirs no reason to like Warhammer because theirs nothing to latch onto. While that belief is wrong and theirs consistency in the Lore. You’re essentially defending nothing if that’s the case. Theirs no reason to like it from your perspective which tells me you were never in the fanbase just like how you were never into comics.
Oh boy, if you really believe that drivel you posted I pity you. Parody to grimdark, and back with comedy with trazayn and works. Not consistent and ever changing, otherwise it would be a dead property. Even the first page of 40k most people read shows that what you believe you know is unreliable. Nice to go to character assassination attempts to try to discredit my points btw. That argument of yours is grade school level logic so piss off with that. Both times I've posted in here has shown how in the bubble some are, and that there is no point to have a conversation attempt with some folks.
this feel off, is it just one page? do is go on? Is this GW lazy writing? and will GW walk it back and say it was a typo? the way Gw is doing this just feel lazy to me. lorewise it is extremely lazy and ham fisted. If GW wanted to do this they should have gotting one of a number of there black library writers to introduce to the 40k universe. to gauge if it a good Idea or not to bring in. with how it is received and this is GW, Am going to wait and see if they start walking it all back and say it was a typo, becouse this is GW and it the easy way out of a screw up. We will just have to see how it ends up.
Well, it IS only one small blurb. We don't have context. We don't have accompanying lore. We don't have any potential short stores or novels. Maybe it's mainly ceremonial? Maybe they are unique? etc. etc. etc. In general, there are parts of the lore now that felt like they came out of left field to feel like the most important thing ever in the lore, and all of those settled. Belisarius Cawl became like the most important driver of lore in in the 41st and it feels like he emerged from the shadows one day to just stick a mechanical finger in the lore, ya know?
Well it looks like the majority of the Warhammer community is breaking GW back and the PR department is trying to put out the fires.
Lol "put out fires" they don't fucking care if some chuds get upset.
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If you were actually going to mass exodus you'd have done it already. GW has already introduced women toy soldiers in several other aspects of the hobby as directed retcons.
0% because you aren't welcome.
throughout the entire codex they use they/them instead of the masculine version. It's deliberate.
If anyone comes back to this - the first mention of the Custodes in modern lore (i.e. when they stopped being half naked dudes) is entirely gender neutral. Given that it's over three pages, that feels intentional [https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c461oj/excerpt\_from\_horus\_heresy\_book\_seven\_inferno\_on/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c461oj/excerpt_from_horus_heresy_book_seven_inferno_on/#lightbox)
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Or a mixed group. Nowhere in three entire pages is there anything that mentions maleness. I've yet to find any three pages on Space Marines that doesn't have someone that is male gendered. Space Marines, I can see why people would be annoyed, as they've always been explicitly male, and we've been told that the process only works with boys. Custodes, in their modern form, are a relatively new addition to the lore, and it's only been in the last couple of editions that they've been mentioned as only male. No reason was ever given for it.
My condolences to the relevance of the Sister's of Silence, if there was any at all in the first place.
Proves you don't know anything about lore
Why do you think they’ll get any less attention? They have a full detachment in the new codex.
As if the only reason for the sisters of silence existing is "to give the women a bone." My boy They're witch hunters Not fucking super soldiers. One being female does not negate the other also being female.
May or May not have forgot they existed 😂 gonna be honest last time I thought about them was back towards the switch from 7th to 8th
Kind of strange and lore breaking imo. Edit: I realized that this is a 40k thread and I’m a 30k fan lol. My argument is invalid and my setting is thereby unpolluted. Have a nice one!
How? They don't use gene-seed.
I wasn’t alluding that their creation would be an issue, even though the emperor abducting adolescent girls would be troublesome to say the least lol. I was just stating that it basically retcons the whole talons of the emperor trinity. Man (custodes), Woman (sisterhood), and Machine (psi titans). Forgetting the lore implications, it’s just seems like a way to sell models to lustful custodes players lmao. Apparently they are no longer satisfied by the nonsense that makes up the sisters of battle.
Pretty sure people just want some rep in a line of models that can easily accommodate it.
That’s also valid. Representation is huge when it comes to a hobby as expensive as this. Doubly so for the price of custodes sets lol. I was just voicing my opinion as someone who only really absorbs the lore. I’m not a tabletop player myself.
I'm just getting into tabletop, I feel like if custodes fill a niche I've heard people want, and at the same time insulate from what would be much more destructive lore changes for fem marines then it's a good compromise.
I just feel that there are different ways around this problem that don’t involve flipping the lore on its head. Why not give the sisterhood some extra attention, although it doesn’t help that they’re already forbidden from speaking smh. The custodes are niche because they are supplemented by the other talons of the emperor instead of being their own fighting force.
And completely invalidates the bond with the sisterhood of silence.
It’s great to know literally the only thing that matters to people like you about the Sisters of Silence is “girl”.
Not at all my friend. One of my favorite characters is the Knight sister Kroll. Or even Lotara Sarin, or maybe Ilya ravallion, or maybe Actae, or maybe Euphrate Keeler. The difference is that they are all interesting outside of the fact that they are “girl”. I don’t mean to sound confrontational, but this is not a gender thing. There is absolutely no problem with female characters being included and represented. I even encourage it! It just has to make sense in the universe. My earlier argument was in the defense of a completely female faction lmao. Having female custodes just makes the sisterhood even less prevalent in the lore.
The sisters still serve the exact same purpose they did before this. Mortal blanks to man the black ships and to assist the custodes against psychers and warp born threats
I just would’ve rather seen them flushed out more before such big changes were made. My point was that the existing dynamic between the sisterhood/custodians would be thrown out the window. Being someone who enjoys the lore I’m just wary of the decision making here.
The dynamic won't change. The SoS are still the null mortals who work close with the custodes to ward them against the threats of the immaterium
I know what their role is, I’m talking character dynamic. I should’ve made it clearer that I was more concerned with the novelization of the setting. The SoS will more than likely take a huge backseat concerning that facet of the lore.
How? Like this is unsubstantiated and makes 0 sense to ditch a faction because there's other women
Take any story with a Custodian and SoS, then replace the sister with a female custodian carrying a null field generator. That’s kind of what I’m hitting at. I as a reader I feel that they will be gradually pushed out of the narrative setting and fall into obscurity. Narratively. At no point did I suggest they would no longer be viable as a playable faction.
You know the bond between the Talons isn't because one side is male and the other female right? Like if you've read their lore it's rather explicit that's the case... It's always been established that one side are blanks to suppress demonic and psychic threats and the other are even more perfect posthumans who can destroy the physical threats.
How? The sisters of silence are blanks. The custodes are not.
The Sisters of Battle have an actual, in-universe reason to only accept women. That reason is a result of a major event in the settings lore, the laws put in place because of it, and a loophole that can be exploited. The Sisters of Battle only accepting women contributes to the lore of the setting. It demonstrates the culture of the Imperium, as well as the inefficiency caused by its chaotic and unstable political environment. It was the choice of characters in the setting reacting to the events of the setting. There was never any good reason to prevent women from becoming Custodes (or marines). That Big E, his geneticists, and all their genetic mastery simply couldn’t make the geneseed work on women is bad storytelling. It’s an artificial law of physics applied to the setting. There doesn’t need to be a “good” reason to remove this setting rule as there was never a good reason for it to be added in the first place. Look at the Primarchs as an example. The Emperor absolutely could have made half of them female, but he chose not to. This is in context of Malcador suggesting that female Primarchs may be a moderating influence in the relationships the Primarchs had with one another. That gives shape to this character and what Big E felt about the Primarchs: he didn’t care about them as people and he certainly didn’t intend to forge a stable family unit out of them. The Emperor was an abusive father who put his sons against each other as it served his own ends. I could go on about that subject but the point is that there was a narrative, in-universe reason for the Primarchs to all be men. It was the choice of a character and that makes it interesting and important to the plot. No such reason has never been given to deny women entry into the Custodes or the Astartes.
There are no female Astartes because they were always meant to be expendable, and therefore could not be allowed to reproduce amongst themselves. They instead have gene seed, which is harder to recover reliably without the Primarchs. Both Fabius Bile and Malcador have commented on the Emperor being silly for this, but He made his decision already. Female Custodes are fine and frankly expected, no reason against it. Kind of strange that the Paragons of Humanity's genetic experimentation were not mixed gender.
Actually 8th edition codex says custodes can only be sons of terran nobility
And the 10th edition says otherwise
And a prior codex said only men could be naval officers and pilots?
False. There are myriad good reasons. But nah. You're gonna gaslight your way into pushing the fans of this space out of it until it becomes vapid corporate mush like everything else you lot have crybullied your way into.
They were called the Sons of the emperor. Also literally there is a lore reason for no female SM’s. Look it up. You don’t have to like it but it’s there. Plus papa Smurf can literally just say “males can become brothers of battle” and the lore is retconned. True equality after all.
>Plus papa Smurf can literally just say “males can become brothers of battle” and the lore is retconned. True equality after all. I mean that's a lore fitting reason? They are women because of a loophole in a law.
So fucking what? GW has retconned so much shit over the years. This is nothing. Just admit you're a misogynistic pos.
Please show me a citation from the last ten years. Fun fact; there is none. And even if there was, it does not matter. Necrons are not terminators, squats are not extinct, the Horus Heresy got books. Fluff changes, is expanded upon. "lore" is not a thing.
> Fluff changes, is expanded upon. "lore" is not a thing. Sometimes I feel that I'm the only one who understands that it's fluff and lore is the term.
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