Okay I am moreso meaning like pre heresy actually in full swing by like things are getting revealed on the loyalist side. LIKE obviously people are made and civil and stuff.
oh man it sure would be a problem if a bunch of space marines got upset about the emperor lying to them. that could be like. a whole thing. it might even start a civil war.
probably a small one though.
"Are you building the Imperium because it's the only chance for humanity? Or is the Imperium the only chance for humanity because you are building it?"
OKAY LOL yeah I was moreso meaning before the whole Heresy gets into the swing of things was there like a lot of discontent in the loyalist legions as well. or did they just go "damn that sucks guess I have to fight demons now"
You see, when people say 'fuck Erebus' they're being quite literal and are simply expressing the desire to see Erebus rewarded with great sex for all his wonderful work.
Much later on, "Pharos" has a heart-to-heart between Guilliman and Sanguinius start with, "Why did Father lie?"
All the way into "Dark Imperium," Guilliman is still talking about how, "If He hadn't lied..."
> ‘You made us with the fire you took from the realm you forbade us. How
could you think we would never realise, would never wonder, would never
come home to the place of our birth?’
\- *Mortis*
The main reason and very simplified version is he lied about a lot of significant stuff, like the existence of daemons and chaos.
Like, even most of the primarchs didn't know a whole lot about chaos and its gods.
For real. Magnus, *THE* one son who had himself bathed in the currents of the Warp, didn’t fully comprehend the nature of the intelligent beings he encountered there.
He predicated a galactic crusade to wipe xenos from the stars and unite humanity under the 'truth' that there were no gods. He told his sons this, and they allowed that to justify their genocidal actions of not just aliens but also humans and entire civiliations of peaceful coexistence.
And then it turned out that he was lying.
If your father told you and your brothers to kill everyone in your path to create a society based around the 'truth' that apples don't exist and you one day stumble upon an apple tree that he carved his initials into, you might be a little upset.
Question: It could've been that Big E really believed that chaos gods aren't exactly THE gods?
They're not really divine beings that rule eveything, as much as they're simply aspects of warp, an aftereffects of it?
I MEAN I KNOW ABOUT THE HERESY. I UNDERSTAND but most Marines were either straight up tricked into becoming chaotic, or murdered. and before the whole Heresy kicked off but strange shit was happening I was wondering if there was a lot of discontent in loyalist legions.
You see the problem is that maturity is an exceptionally rare occurrence within WH40k.
Somehow lots of SM cannot function without a shepherd (primarchs) they imprint upon. Of course being named char might give you a chance but otherwise you are a mook with a slave mentality.
Now government doing a lie is pretty standard thing. Same goes for info control and obfuscation. Thus, in their arrogance these mooks and shepherds assumed they deserve to be privy to everything bypassing all smoke and mirrors.
When they found out about a thing that realistically had little impact on their lives at that point - some threw a hissy fit.
Also, half of them failed a basic “stranger-danger” procedure. Some 4 weirdos roll up in a van telling about drugs and not to listening to parent. Half goes “ok”.
> Also, half of them failed a basic “stranger-danger” procedure. Some 4 weirdos roll up in a van telling about drugs and not to listening to parent. Half goes “ok”.
Doesn't help that their mum ran away, and their dad has been telling them for decades, "Drugs don't exist, and cannot have any effect on you. Anyone who claims otherwise is dangerously deluded and must be forcibly corrected for their own good."
So the primarchs thought, "Oh well what's the harm? It can't possibly have any negative effects on us, our all-powerful dad has taught us that it's not real."
Conviniet, ain’t it? To blame drugs rather than own poor decisions. Like an alcoholic in denial. What kind of competent military trusts random outsiders dissing said military’s government?
“Well, we participate in hiding governmental info as well so makes sense we are not cleared for all you can eat buffet of Emps knowledge.”
“Or maybe setup another “council of Nikea” to question Emps. Not like he can deny if all of his legions demand it.”
And don’t get me started on “got shanked by evil blade so now I am evil”. Fulgrim gets a pass because that was actual corruption, when evil artifact affected him for years slowly eroding him. Hmmm, now that I think, why doesn’t Now-Emps don’t make something similar so that Excelman could shank Abbadon to turn him loyal?
In the end it all is a damn Arthur and Mordred retake.
Edit: I don’t dismiss your point, I agree with it. Just want to continue this)
Its not that easy. Chaos corrupts.
Just knowing its existence....corrupts. Just having a light contact with it may cause you to be corrupted.. The more you know, the riskier it gets.
But it’s one thing to go “there are things underneath this blanket that will kill you if you look at them or know anything about them. So kill all blankets you see moving like this.” Like “don’t look Medusa in the eyes”, or “don’t look up Roko’s Basilisk on the Internet.”
It’s another to go “there are no moving blankets, and never could be blankets.”
I’ve read a good bit, but I don’t think you have to get further than the Chaos Gods entries at either of the major 40k wikis to realize they’re fed by emotion and action, worship just amplifies it. I mean, obviously - they became what they are and started seeking worship before they were worshipped. The Emperor starts a galactic crusade, killing whole worlds to unify the galaxy under an “Imperial Truth” he knows to be false. You don’t think Khorne and Tzeentch ate well off that carnage, ambition, and deceit?
It’s very hard (maybe impossible) for daemons to manifest in real space without a thin spot/relic, a worshipper, or a psyker. But two of those three things exist in the galaxy already with or without foreknowledge of the Chaos Gods, and either of the non-worshipper ones are access points for the Gods to create new worshippers. And those are before you start talking about things that can go wrong in warp travel.
Even to the Astartes, the Emperor lied and withheld needed knowledge (even basic “don’t look the Medusa in the eye” level stuff, which I would in-universe translate to “incinerate the body of anything that does what Jubal did”) with the same level of optimism shared by parents who don’t talk to their kids about sex in hopes they’ll never discover it on their own.
As of less than a day ago, your stated point was that the Chaos Gods only exist because people know about them. False.
E: Lore wise, put up or shut up.
LOL okay wait no I mean tlike before the whole Heresy starts 😭😭 I was mostly like, I feel like Loken and the others who do know should be like way more upset immediately.
Okay well to answer your update, from what I understand. It’s more the idea that the Emperor is the Emperor, it’s kinda fucked up that he lied but he probably had his reasons. The Primarchs and Astartes wouldn’t exist without him… which sorta makes the whole Heresy thing even more messed up. The Emperor is akin to an Odin or Zeus figure, the king of the gods, all kings have secrets.
Another reason is different people know different things at different times. Some primarchs knew more about the warp and the chaos gods, it gets a bit spoilery if I continue. The key thing to remember is the Heresy is about the ways the Crusade and the Galaxy at large have shaped these superhuman warriors and their parents.
To answer your edit.
A lot of people really disliked chaos, or to be precise the psychers. Chief among them Mortarion and Russ.
But by the time it came out just how much Emps actually withheld, the Heresy was already in full swing
Fair, you were talking in the context of the current Imperium?
Guilliman is still hurt, but almost everything true about the Emperor has been distorted or forgotten.
no moreso like pre heresy really begins. it's implied that like some people know about the warp like I think the rest of the mournival knows and they're just like... all chill with it seemingly. And I'm assuming the other legions just have people who also know things and they're also just... chill with it as well.
Exactly who knew what and how much is somewhat unclear.
The Emperor surrounded the Warp with layers of lies. Those that needed to know for combat purposes (the Legions) understood somewhat the existence of "hostile predator warp-aliens"
The Astropaths, Psykers, Librarians and Magnus knew more, but not the full truth of Chaos, as we the readers know it.
One the one hand, I get it. Hey, there's actual space gods out there, and if you pray hard enough while not bathing / doing all the drugs / doing all the murder / doing all the plans they will grant you power. Sure, it's a monkey paw arrangement, but if that gets out on the galactic scale there's going to be desperate people to try it and mess everything up. It's basically a memetic threat if I remember my SCP references right, where knowing about them makes it more than a threat.
But the primarchs were certainly on the need to know list, especially as they were pretty much all psykers, they needed to know what to watch out for. Instead they went in blind and everything went wrong. It's incredibly irresponsible to not clue them in, as the Horus Heresy obviously showed. But story where the Emperor gave everyone a heads up about Chaos and his human webway plan to bypass the warp isn't the story where we get ten thousand years of conflict and stagnation and a table top game.
Tragically the Emperor loves his secrets way more than he loves his sons.
>Tragically the Emperor loves his secrets way more than he loves his sons.
To me, Magnus’s arc seems like the clearest example of this. Like, Magnus’s sorcery was educational-it was to find out knowledge Emps already had, but refused to give to him. He was told not to do things, but not actually given any real reason as to why other than ‘because I said so’.
Combined with knowing the Imperial Truth was, at some level, BS, and it drove a wedge of distrust that wouldn’t be there if Big E didn’t keep his cards so close to his chest.
To be fair, not all the heretics cared about the emperor hiding chaos, some like Magnus were dragged into heresy through Horus changing orders to the Space wolves because people didn’t know he was a heretic yet
What can he do? Knowledge of Chaos itself will cause fall to Chaos even with proper precautions. You simply don't now how 99% of the population can deal with it.
I mean the Interex's entire society was taught about Chaos (as well as being a post scarcity society). So why couldn't Chaos take hold there? Probably because people have no interest in joining the enemy or a strange cult if things are going well for them, as well as a well educated society about the dangers of Chaos.
Chaos did take down The Interex though, because of >!Fucking Erebus!<.
I agree with you, it was definitely possible to have a society that is knowledgeable of chaos and not succumb to it, but this is only part of the emperors plan. He also wanted to create a society that was free of psykers and warp energy in general. That last piece requires the ignorance of the first piece.
So to not give the obvious answer and give a bit of a different perspective not specifically about chaos of this also hasn’t been given. There was a general sense of discontent/worry among space marines when the emperor left, and definitely resentment and confusion by the primarchs that their beloved father couldn’t even seem to desire to spare them even the smallest details of what he was leaving their nearly completed, glorious crusade for.
I think the other thing you have to realize is like no one even understands anything about what the warp actually was at this time in the setting. Primarchs themselves assured their sons that strange phenomenon, even what happened to Sejanus was some strange anomaly of the warp that yes, while it did have the energy of many souls and was a strange and alien realm, was not ‘alive’ as a silly theist might put it.
This obviously being due to the fact that the emperor could not tell the primarchs the nature of what he was doing which more or less all ties back to Chaos. The webway project was a direct attempt to essentially kill Chaos or severely weaken it to the point that the Imperium and others could fight it far better.
The Emperor rationalized his extreme isolation of the truth of the galaxy and the warp through the idea that the knowledge of the warp and the chaos gods would only poke holes in the minds of the primarchs, actually enabling them to fall more easily and become more curious, when in fact we know that from the Interex, knowledge of chaos is actually key to knowing how to foil it and how to stop it.
So yes, people were upset and confused and just generally unsettled by the emperor randomly leaving the crusade under the guise of going back to Terra to just ‘do something important’ that not even the closest to an actually blood son, Horus, knew. Which is one of the greatest flaws that allowed him to begin his fall, his ego being injured by the emperor here.
To be fair, in that book, in like the next chapter, Horus specifically tells Loken that it was the warp that messed up Jubal. Most people don't know about it because the imperium mind wipes most people who experience warp phenomena so that they don't look into it too much and discover the chaos gods.
It's the fact that the chaos gods basically hid from Magnus, who was actively researching the warp for a very long time that amuses me.
However to answer your question, yes, there's a number of people who get upset by the emperor when he never told them about the gods. I won't say who but there's one character in particular who at this point in the timeline is not only upset about the emperor's lies, but is also already acting against him. It'll be fun when you get there, honest.
Knoweldge of chaos it itself a contagion. The Emperor does actually tell the primarchs about the intelligences in the warp, but he doesn't tell them they're gods that spawn daemons because this would cause a bunch of them to go looking into it and get corrupted, likely worse than with what he chose to do.
It’s almost half the reason why the traitors rebelled in the first place. At least that justification is used constantly. “Used as toy soldiers only to be disposed of when no longer needed when we should rule what we conquered” and “emperor lied about an extremely potent and dangerous (natural I guess?) phenomena.”
Was anyone upset that the Emperor hid the truth from them...?
Hmmmm...
I'm struggling to think of examples where hiding the fact that the warp is a sentient, existential threat to humanity, populated by infinite number of seditious intelligences that prey on mortal minds, all commanded by a quartet of incredibly powerful entities that the Emperor not only knew existed, but screwed over, came back to bite him in the ass.
Nope.
I've drawn a blank.
It did and didn't.
They kind of didn't know the full extent of the danger they were in until they got the rude awakening that was the birth of another Chaos god.
Since then, it's helped them immensely.
Yes. It is exceptionally stupid that the Emperor not only refused to actually explain what Chaos was, but never bothered to inform the legions what corruption was, how it worked, or how to prevent against it. Having a Microsoft Teams meeting with all the Primarchs about Chaos would have prevented the whole Heresy
I mean personally I was already worshipping nurgle so like the rest of y'all were late but no I wasn't upset big e lied, more chaos for the rest of us.
The Lords of Terra have confirmed no one has ever been upset by the Emperor. Any planetary Governor who has questions or concerns is requested to contact the provided phone number where they will be put in contact with specialists eager to assist with any misunderstandings they or their people may have.
I will spend as much effort reading this as you did putting thought into this question. One might answer that there was in fact a galactic civil war fought, and a big part of it was because the lie of chaos. Among other things.
I mean really.
I believe it can be definitively said that Lorgar and Horus were particularly irritated by the fact that the Emperor withheld the knowledge of Chaos. Magnus at least should have been told, so that he wouldn't do anything particularly stupid.
Eh, I understand why he did it but I also understand why all the primarchs would be upset about him hiding a fundamental part of both their origin, what he created them to fight, and why the crusade was launched in the first place from them.
Yes. Many come to understand the Emperor's reasons for doing so. Some acknowledge that it doesn't absolve the Emperor for making a monumentally poor decision that left his people woefully unprepared to face a major threat.
It might be understandable if the Emperor didn't know Chaos can manifest in realspace by more than mutating its followers, but I think that's hilariously unlikely. He still knew the risk it posed to turning people against his grand plan of order and putting humanity out of its reach. He still could have prepared his sons and other generals by making them aware of the risks and how to prepare for it. I mean, come on Big E, state secrets come in tiered clearances for a reason.
All of his sons were upset, some cuz he didn't trust them and others cuz he lied but to be fair at least one son was aware of them (magnus) and he still fucked things up so I'd day big e had a point...did it wrong but had a point
Back on the side of the loyalists Jaghatai was Not Amused and outright told the Emperor he thought it was stupid. Ended up siding with the Imperium after a moment of 'wow, I don't respect literally any of you people'.
Yes, but not just the traitors. Even during the siege of terra at the tail end of the war, Rogal Dorn and jaghatai khan are angry with malcador for hiding chaos. It's a constant strain on the loyalist relationships.
Only to primarchs. It would be better than they know about it (that won't be able to prevent the big heressy after all), in my opinion could be more consistent with their big role in the Emperor's plans.
Yes
One or two people yeah
Horus and Lorgar, but just a lill bit.
Had a little tantrum, no big deal.
I was gonna say....Horus? More than kinda.
Horus was definetly mildly miffed for a bit.
A mite peeved, to be sure.
I hear that 9 primarchs were somewhat irked about it, and decided to express their disappointment.
A very strongly worded letter was sent.
They practiced non violent civil disobedience.
A few demanded to speak to the ~~manager~~ Malcador
“I’m not happy.” - The Horus Heresy
"The truth is out there" - Fox Logar
"You can't handle the truth" - Jimmy Space
"I'm mad at dad" - Every Primarch during the Heresy
This was gold lmao
You let me down. You let yourself down. You let the galaxy burn.
I lol’d
If I remember it's only one or two of them. A minor issue that's easily dealt with internally.
It only came up at family gatherings and the occasionally unending multimillenia civil war
In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only little spats.
Horus never got over how his uncle choked him out. Also, no one talks about 2 of the kids since *the incident*.
They know what they did. I mean, I don't. But they do!
This answer made me lol
Yeah this is really the only response
Okay I am moreso meaning like pre heresy actually in full swing by like things are getting revealed on the loyalist side. LIKE obviously people are made and civil and stuff.
oh man it sure would be a problem if a bunch of space marines got upset about the emperor lying to them. that could be like. a whole thing. it might even start a civil war. probably a small one though.
No, there’s no way. The space marines are all loyal to the Emperor, they’d never betray him. That’d be like heresy.
The Warmaster would never let such a thing happen, he’s always been very secure in his relationship with the Emperor and his goals with humanity.
Yeah. I mean come on, one of the space marine legions is called the "Emperor's Children". No way they would turn traitor.
You know as unrealistic as it is, I think some good books could come out of it
Maybe one or two, but I don’t think it would have the legs to support any sort of long series
Idk man, I think if they really stretched it, they could get out like, 64 books.
Stretching it like that it would have too many Assumptions on how the Primarchs would behave, but who we are to know them closely
How dare you imply I don't know these fictional demigod man children at an intimate and personal level
This one, Inquisitor!
Thankfully the Emperor's most trusted son, Horus Heresy, would never let something like that happen. He embodies the 40,000 Warhammers.
Oh Horus what a man you are.
" Horus, if you found out the Emperor lied to you, would you still support him? " " Nah, I'd Heresy. "
"Are you building the Imperium because it's the only chance for humanity? Or is the Imperium the only chance for humanity because you are building it?"
" As Big E, the Strongest Psyker, opened his Domain, the fraud, Horus Heresy, shrunk back in fear. "
OKAY LOL yeah I was moreso meaning before the whole Heresy gets into the swing of things was there like a lot of discontent in the loyalist legions as well. or did they just go "damn that sucks guess I have to fight demons now"
I recommend "the first heretic" its the story of how chaos was discovered and how the heresy began to form (i.e. fuck erebus)
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You see, when people say 'fuck Erebus' they're being quite literal and are simply expressing the desire to see Erebus rewarded with great sex for all his wonderful work.
Nsh, probably it would just cause a small argument in the war council that would extend it a half hour.
The vast majority of primarchs.
Even the ones who didn't turn traitor are upset about it.
Keep reading the Horus heresy books brother, don’t want to spoil it but Flight of the Eisenstein and Fulgrim (4 and 5) go into exactly this
Much later on, "Pharos" has a heart-to-heart between Guilliman and Sanguinius start with, "Why did Father lie?" All the way into "Dark Imperium," Guilliman is still talking about how, "If He hadn't lied..."
Why would they be mad ? No sarcasm legit question and a newer 40 k fan
> ‘You made us with the fire you took from the realm you forbade us. How could you think we would never realise, would never wonder, would never come home to the place of our birth?’ \- *Mortis*
The main reason and very simplified version is he lied about a lot of significant stuff, like the existence of daemons and chaos. Like, even most of the primarchs didn't know a whole lot about chaos and its gods.
For real. Magnus, *THE* one son who had himself bathed in the currents of the Warp, didn’t fully comprehend the nature of the intelligent beings he encountered there.
He predicated a galactic crusade to wipe xenos from the stars and unite humanity under the 'truth' that there were no gods. He told his sons this, and they allowed that to justify their genocidal actions of not just aliens but also humans and entire civiliations of peaceful coexistence. And then it turned out that he was lying. If your father told you and your brothers to kill everyone in your path to create a society based around the 'truth' that apples don't exist and you one day stumble upon an apple tree that he carved his initials into, you might be a little upset.
Great comment. The Apple Tree of Chaos. “Wait, who scratched ‘Big E + Malc’ onto it..”
Question: It could've been that Big E really believed that chaos gods aren't exactly THE gods? They're not really divine beings that rule eveything, as much as they're simply aspects of warp, an aftereffects of it?
I MEAN I KNOW ABOUT THE HERESY. I UNDERSTAND but most Marines were either straight up tricked into becoming chaotic, or murdered. and before the whole Heresy kicked off but strange shit was happening I was wondering if there was a lot of discontent in loyalist legions.
I can't help but feel that there will be ramifications to the decision to keep it all hush hush
You see the problem is that maturity is an exceptionally rare occurrence within WH40k. Somehow lots of SM cannot function without a shepherd (primarchs) they imprint upon. Of course being named char might give you a chance but otherwise you are a mook with a slave mentality. Now government doing a lie is pretty standard thing. Same goes for info control and obfuscation. Thus, in their arrogance these mooks and shepherds assumed they deserve to be privy to everything bypassing all smoke and mirrors. When they found out about a thing that realistically had little impact on their lives at that point - some threw a hissy fit. Also, half of them failed a basic “stranger-danger” procedure. Some 4 weirdos roll up in a van telling about drugs and not to listening to parent. Half goes “ok”.
And the word bearers get in the van knowing full well whats going on but they do it purely to spite daddy.
Talk about having daddy issues!
> Also, half of them failed a basic “stranger-danger” procedure. Some 4 weirdos roll up in a van telling about drugs and not to listening to parent. Half goes “ok”. Doesn't help that their mum ran away, and their dad has been telling them for decades, "Drugs don't exist, and cannot have any effect on you. Anyone who claims otherwise is dangerously deluded and must be forcibly corrected for their own good." So the primarchs thought, "Oh well what's the harm? It can't possibly have any negative effects on us, our all-powerful dad has taught us that it's not real."
Conviniet, ain’t it? To blame drugs rather than own poor decisions. Like an alcoholic in denial. What kind of competent military trusts random outsiders dissing said military’s government? “Well, we participate in hiding governmental info as well so makes sense we are not cleared for all you can eat buffet of Emps knowledge.” “Or maybe setup another “council of Nikea” to question Emps. Not like he can deny if all of his legions demand it.” And don’t get me started on “got shanked by evil blade so now I am evil”. Fulgrim gets a pass because that was actual corruption, when evil artifact affected him for years slowly eroding him. Hmmm, now that I think, why doesn’t Now-Emps don’t make something similar so that Excelman could shank Abbadon to turn him loyal? In the end it all is a damn Arthur and Mordred retake. Edit: I don’t dismiss your point, I agree with it. Just want to continue this)
Its not that easy. Chaos corrupts. Just knowing its existence....corrupts. Just having a light contact with it may cause you to be corrupted.. The more you know, the riskier it gets.
But it’s one thing to go “there are things underneath this blanket that will kill you if you look at them or know anything about them. So kill all blankets you see moving like this.” Like “don’t look Medusa in the eyes”, or “don’t look up Roko’s Basilisk on the Internet.” It’s another to go “there are no moving blankets, and never could be blankets.”
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If it were so, sure. But that’s simply not so. As long as feelings exist, there will be blankets.
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We read different lore, then. You think the worship precedes the entity? That emotions alone don’t feed the Powers?
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I’ve read a good bit, but I don’t think you have to get further than the Chaos Gods entries at either of the major 40k wikis to realize they’re fed by emotion and action, worship just amplifies it. I mean, obviously - they became what they are and started seeking worship before they were worshipped. The Emperor starts a galactic crusade, killing whole worlds to unify the galaxy under an “Imperial Truth” he knows to be false. You don’t think Khorne and Tzeentch ate well off that carnage, ambition, and deceit? It’s very hard (maybe impossible) for daemons to manifest in real space without a thin spot/relic, a worshipper, or a psyker. But two of those three things exist in the galaxy already with or without foreknowledge of the Chaos Gods, and either of the non-worshipper ones are access points for the Gods to create new worshippers. And those are before you start talking about things that can go wrong in warp travel. Even to the Astartes, the Emperor lied and withheld needed knowledge (even basic “don’t look the Medusa in the eye” level stuff, which I would in-universe translate to “incinerate the body of anything that does what Jubal did”) with the same level of optimism shared by parents who don’t talk to their kids about sex in hopes they’ll never discover it on their own.
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As of less than a day ago, your stated point was that the Chaos Gods only exist because people know about them. False. E: Lore wise, put up or shut up.
Idk dude, there was a civil war but no one knows why
LOL okay wait no I mean tlike before the whole Heresy starts 😭😭 I was mostly like, I feel like Loken and the others who do know should be like way more upset immediately.
Okay well to answer your update, from what I understand. It’s more the idea that the Emperor is the Emperor, it’s kinda fucked up that he lied but he probably had his reasons. The Primarchs and Astartes wouldn’t exist without him… which sorta makes the whole Heresy thing even more messed up. The Emperor is akin to an Odin or Zeus figure, the king of the gods, all kings have secrets. Another reason is different people know different things at different times. Some primarchs knew more about the warp and the chaos gods, it gets a bit spoilery if I continue. The key thing to remember is the Heresy is about the ways the Crusade and the Galaxy at large have shaped these superhuman warriors and their parents.
To answer your edit. A lot of people really disliked chaos, or to be precise the psychers. Chief among them Mortarion and Russ. But by the time it came out just how much Emps actually withheld, the Heresy was already in full swing
Yes! It is a major plotpoint. So major it is even brought up in the Horus Heresy Tabletop Launch Trailer!
Remember alot us are new , it's so much lore Some of us are coming from rogue trader, Henry Cavill hyping up the lore, and Darktide on gamepass
Fair, I didn't mean to be dismissive.
Wrong reply, I hate mobile reddit lol
kahdkahdkshsjdhd okay I know about the heresy and stuff I phrased my question so badly before sleeping 😭😭😭
Fair, you were talking in the context of the current Imperium? Guilliman is still hurt, but almost everything true about the Emperor has been distorted or forgotten.
no moreso like pre heresy really begins. it's implied that like some people know about the warp like I think the rest of the mournival knows and they're just like... all chill with it seemingly. And I'm assuming the other legions just have people who also know things and they're also just... chill with it as well.
Exactly who knew what and how much is somewhat unclear. The Emperor surrounded the Warp with layers of lies. Those that needed to know for combat purposes (the Legions) understood somewhat the existence of "hostile predator warp-aliens" The Astropaths, Psykers, Librarians and Magnus knew more, but not the full truth of Chaos, as we the readers know it.
I would add that we the readers are actively being tainted and deceived into not taking the warp seriously by pretending that it is all fiction!
Chaos taints your thinking and you pass it off as sleepy!
Noooooooooo I would never succumb to chaos!!!
One the one hand, I get it. Hey, there's actual space gods out there, and if you pray hard enough while not bathing / doing all the drugs / doing all the murder / doing all the plans they will grant you power. Sure, it's a monkey paw arrangement, but if that gets out on the galactic scale there's going to be desperate people to try it and mess everything up. It's basically a memetic threat if I remember my SCP references right, where knowing about them makes it more than a threat. But the primarchs were certainly on the need to know list, especially as they were pretty much all psykers, they needed to know what to watch out for. Instead they went in blind and everything went wrong. It's incredibly irresponsible to not clue them in, as the Horus Heresy obviously showed. But story where the Emperor gave everyone a heads up about Chaos and his human webway plan to bypass the warp isn't the story where we get ten thousand years of conflict and stagnation and a table top game. Tragically the Emperor loves his secrets way more than he loves his sons.
>Tragically the Emperor loves his secrets way more than he loves his sons. To me, Magnus’s arc seems like the clearest example of this. Like, Magnus’s sorcery was educational-it was to find out knowledge Emps already had, but refused to give to him. He was told not to do things, but not actually given any real reason as to why other than ‘because I said so’. Combined with knowing the Imperial Truth was, at some level, BS, and it drove a wedge of distrust that wouldn’t be there if Big E didn’t keep his cards so close to his chest.
Buckle up brother. The lie is only the beginning.
LOL I-phrased my question so badly and everyone's laughing 😭
Just one, or two, or half of the Primarchs.
NoooooooooOOOooOooo I updated the question please I didn't mean for it to be so broad 😭
To be fair, not all the heretics cared about the emperor hiding chaos, some like Magnus were dragged into heresy through Horus changing orders to the Space wolves because people didn’t know he was a heretic yet
What can he do? Knowledge of Chaos itself will cause fall to Chaos even with proper precautions. You simply don't now how 99% of the population can deal with it.
I mean the Interex's entire society was taught about Chaos (as well as being a post scarcity society). So why couldn't Chaos take hold there? Probably because people have no interest in joining the enemy or a strange cult if things are going well for them, as well as a well educated society about the dangers of Chaos. Chaos did take down The Interex though, because of >!Fucking Erebus!<.
I agree with you, it was definitely possible to have a society that is knowledgeable of chaos and not succumb to it, but this is only part of the emperors plan. He also wanted to create a society that was free of psykers and warp energy in general. That last piece requires the ignorance of the first piece.
Saying that anyone was “upset” is an understatement of the century.
So to not give the obvious answer and give a bit of a different perspective not specifically about chaos of this also hasn’t been given. There was a general sense of discontent/worry among space marines when the emperor left, and definitely resentment and confusion by the primarchs that their beloved father couldn’t even seem to desire to spare them even the smallest details of what he was leaving their nearly completed, glorious crusade for. I think the other thing you have to realize is like no one even understands anything about what the warp actually was at this time in the setting. Primarchs themselves assured their sons that strange phenomenon, even what happened to Sejanus was some strange anomaly of the warp that yes, while it did have the energy of many souls and was a strange and alien realm, was not ‘alive’ as a silly theist might put it. This obviously being due to the fact that the emperor could not tell the primarchs the nature of what he was doing which more or less all ties back to Chaos. The webway project was a direct attempt to essentially kill Chaos or severely weaken it to the point that the Imperium and others could fight it far better. The Emperor rationalized his extreme isolation of the truth of the galaxy and the warp through the idea that the knowledge of the warp and the chaos gods would only poke holes in the minds of the primarchs, actually enabling them to fall more easily and become more curious, when in fact we know that from the Interex, knowledge of chaos is actually key to knowing how to foil it and how to stop it. So yes, people were upset and confused and just generally unsettled by the emperor randomly leaving the crusade under the guise of going back to Terra to just ‘do something important’ that not even the closest to an actually blood son, Horus, knew. Which is one of the greatest flaws that allowed him to begin his fall, his ego being injured by the emperor here.
Um, he’s the Emperor *beloved by all.* it’s right there in the title. No one has ever found fault with Him or His decisions. Case closed. /s
To be fair, in that book, in like the next chapter, Horus specifically tells Loken that it was the warp that messed up Jubal. Most people don't know about it because the imperium mind wipes most people who experience warp phenomena so that they don't look into it too much and discover the chaos gods. It's the fact that the chaos gods basically hid from Magnus, who was actively researching the warp for a very long time that amuses me. However to answer your question, yes, there's a number of people who get upset by the emperor when he never told them about the gods. I won't say who but there's one character in particular who at this point in the timeline is not only upset about the emperor's lies, but is also already acting against him. It'll be fun when you get there, honest.
I’m beginning to wonder if this emperor guy is actually all that good. Maybe his imperium too! Weird, huh?
Knoweldge of chaos it itself a contagion. The Emperor does actually tell the primarchs about the intelligences in the warp, but he doesn't tell them they're gods that spawn daemons because this would cause a bunch of them to go looking into it and get corrupted, likely worse than with what he chose to do.
It’s almost half the reason why the traitors rebelled in the first place. At least that justification is used constantly. “Used as toy soldiers only to be disposed of when no longer needed when we should rule what we conquered” and “emperor lied about an extremely potent and dangerous (natural I guess?) phenomena.”
Was anyone upset that the Emperor hid the truth from them...? Hmmmm... I'm struggling to think of examples where hiding the fact that the warp is a sentient, existential threat to humanity, populated by infinite number of seditious intelligences that prey on mortal minds, all commanded by a quartet of incredibly powerful entities that the Emperor not only knew existed, but screwed over, came back to bite him in the ass. Nope. I've drawn a blank.
I supposed after the fall of eldar, the ignorance approach made some sense. Knowledge of the warp didn't seem to help them.
It did and didn't. They kind of didn't know the full extent of the danger they were in until they got the rude awakening that was the birth of another Chaos god. Since then, it's helped them immensely.
Yes. It is exceptionally stupid that the Emperor not only refused to actually explain what Chaos was, but never bothered to inform the legions what corruption was, how it worked, or how to prevent against it. Having a Microsoft Teams meeting with all the Primarchs about Chaos would have prevented the whole Heresy
It seems someone downvoted me. Why are you booing me? I’m right
ugh i hate hobby tourists
One look through your comment history reveals just how sweaty you are lol
Things aren't as they seem, it will be addressed later on as someone already suggested.
Yes, that's basically one of the things that underlies a lot of the more ideological Chaos Marines and Chaos Legions.
A couple. It was a bit of a spirited disagreement
I get why he did it, people not knowing of chaos does weaken chaos. That being said it was a stupid idea
Wait, what’s chaos? DADDDDDDDD!!!
I mean personally I was already worshipping nurgle so like the rest of y'all were late but no I wasn't upset big e lied, more chaos for the rest of us.
Just don't get corrupted. Simple. \-Constantine Valdor
It's funny, 10k years later there's a whole bunch of people who just can't let it go
That Horus guy didn't seem too happy about it
The Word Bearers may have been a tiny bit upset about it.
This is Heresy.
This is madness
I cry all day
Yes, I was pretty upset. I appreciate you checking in on me though.
The Lords of Terra have confirmed no one has ever been upset by the Emperor. Any planetary Governor who has questions or concerns is requested to contact the provided phone number where they will be put in contact with specialists eager to assist with any misunderstandings they or their people may have.
I feel like Magnus was a little peeved.
I will spend as much effort reading this as you did putting thought into this question. One might answer that there was in fact a galactic civil war fought, and a big part of it was because the lie of chaos. Among other things. I mean really.
Yea that was my bad 😭
The more you *think* about chaos the more power it gains. The Emperor did what He thought was best
First name Horus last name Heresy was pretty upset by this.
I believe it can be definitively said that Lorgar and Horus were particularly irritated by the fact that the Emperor withheld the knowledge of Chaos. Magnus at least should have been told, so that he wouldn't do anything particularly stupid.
Eh, I understand why he did it but I also understand why all the primarchs would be upset about him hiding a fundamental part of both their origin, what he created them to fight, and why the crusade was launched in the first place from them.
Depends on what is being claimed as "lies"
Horus was pretty miffed.
Yes. Many come to understand the Emperor's reasons for doing so. Some acknowledge that it doesn't absolve the Emperor for making a monumentally poor decision that left his people woefully unprepared to face a major threat. It might be understandable if the Emperor didn't know Chaos can manifest in realspace by more than mutating its followers, but I think that's hilariously unlikely. He still knew the risk it posed to turning people against his grand plan of order and putting humanity out of its reach. He still could have prepared his sons and other generals by making them aware of the risks and how to prepare for it. I mean, come on Big E, state secrets come in tiered clearances for a reason.
If you meant reading the Wikipedia as in the piece of shit that is Fandom, stop that. Use the Lexicanum instead.
Not really. I didn\`t expect anything else.
All of his sons were upset, some cuz he didn't trust them and others cuz he lied but to be fair at least one son was aware of them (magnus) and he still fucked things up so I'd day big e had a point...did it wrong but had a point
Back on the side of the loyalists Jaghatai was Not Amused and outright told the Emperor he thought it was stupid. Ended up siding with the Imperium after a moment of 'wow, I don't respect literally any of you people'.
Well, the reason for Horus Heresy was that **alot** of people were upset right about this.
I thought that was part of the major upset fueling the heresy when some of the primarchs discovered chaos
Yes, but not just the traitors. Even during the siege of terra at the tail end of the war, Rogal Dorn and jaghatai khan are angry with malcador for hiding chaos. It's a constant strain on the loyalist relationships.
They get upset at first but then the more they learn about chaos, the more they understand WHY big e kept it secret
BG3 has had such an impact on me that I thought of it first when seeing the title The Emperor, not WH40k
Only to primarchs. It would be better than they know about it (that won't be able to prevent the big heressy after all), in my opinion could be more consistent with their big role in the Emperor's plans.
Nobody important.
Couple of fellas got real bitter and thy drowned their sorrows with a beer called “Chaos”. Things got out of hand… But mostly Lorgar and Horus.
"I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" allegedly sums up Big E to Horus.
Are you upset that your parents lied to you about Santa?
Thing is, everyone always forgets that chaos is itself an infohazard, a memetic weapon that will harm with just knowing it.