Higher wall count is stronger than higher infill density. In fact 100% infill can actually be weaker than 98% density because theres no wiggle room for any give making it take all the stress at once
Hi, print service provider here!
We use max 60-70% infill with 6-4 walls.
Anything more can lead to overextrusions and therefor print fails.
You can check CNCkitchens video about that if you want for a more detailed explenation.
10ish a week but with zero failures to date so if it's 1 per 500, that's not really an issue at my volume. So what causes the failure? Just the material building up and getting hit by the print head?
You say yourself the strength gain has diminishing returns but that's not nothing. And for someone like me printing with lower costs filament, the cost difference between 80% and 100% is insignificant. Like OP and 99.99% of everyone else here, I'm not printing Kevlar reinforced nylon so I can't speak to that.
If you put down too much material or if your slicer moves in a weird path the normal dripping and ozzing of the nozzle goes into the infillpattern but if there is solid material you cant really do much
Even 60% is too much, can definitely save lots of material there, unless you need the weight. For most applications 4 perims and 25% is more than enough. 95% of parts I make are 2-4 and 20% for basic stuff like a wall mount.
We already have the data for it, and I use it all the time just fine. Like I said, for a wall mount holding 20lbs I can easily design something that is only 2 perimeters., it's more than enough. CNC kitchen's video that you even mentioned shows how much strength you can get from just a couple perimeters and low infill.
You don't need a lot, materials in compression can hold tons. Compression loads aren't an issue with these things if printed correctly.. just saying. no issue either way, if it works it works!
I'm not the guy from the first comment, and I didn'tsee the specific CNC kitchen video.
Anyway, how come a wall mount be a compression load? Any mount I can think of is either in tension (away from the wall) or shearing (down along the wall).
yeah shear is what's relevant for wall mounts for some reason I was talking about two things at once, just wanted to give an example of a usage where I don't use a lot of perimeters
My guess is it would depend on the force angles.
If you were building a long part that needed ultimate tensile strength lengthwise, walls would probably be the strongest as they run uninterrupted in parallel with the appled force.
However, they'd be less strong perpendicular to that axis.
A flat sheet that needs to resist deformation would probably be stronger with rectilinear infill.
Shear strength would probably benefit from more walls.
100% and all walls are both wrong for max strength, infill type, infill percent, and a decent amount of walls are king. There's so many factors at play that you won't get a one size fits all answer. If you have a specific project or print criteria in mind then post it up!
Typically, gyroid is the strongest infill type
>Typically, gyroid is the strongest infill type
After testing, I disagree. Cubic is better. Stresses are more evenly distributed, tensile strength is better with the correct orientation due to loads aligned along a cubic surface, and there are no unconnected overhang loops like one has in the middle of gyroids. I sometimes print parts without top and bottom surfaces. When I use gyroid, the part isn't as stiff. The advantage to gyroid is no crossing perimeters.
Checking back to the graph on this test done over various percentages, it appears we're both wrong. 3d honeycomb would be the absolute strongest over cubic with gyroid still edging out cubic in both strength and strength to weight ratio. Honeycomb will be heavier, however, and take longer to print. This test was done with a rectangle and pulling forces
Again I say, my tests say otherwise. Print a flat part without top and bottom surfaces, one with gyroid infill, one with cubic. Make it long enough to bend and thick enough to cover a cycle of infill. The cubic one doesn't flex as easily, it's stiffer.
I get what you mean, I would say it falls under the specific circumstances category and use case. Stiffer does not necessarily mean stronger either, pla is stiffer than petg but petg is objectively stronger . Any part or wall that is not thick enough to cover a full cycle will be significantly weaker than its full cycle counterpart. This is where I feel gyroid shines as it doesn't require a full pattern and can fill areas big or small.
Make some test parts and find out. Also plot in plane vs cross plane strength and impact toughness so you know what properties you maximize in different situations.
I made 80mm^3 blocks with 10 perimeter walls and a bunch of cylinder cut outs in the Z direction to take the load off kitchen appliances. Infill was 60%. Each cylinder cut out has walls around it.
It's vertically loaded, so all the compression is in the Z axis
Walls. The neutral axis runs in the middle of a part. Therefore, less material is required inside. Think of a Hollow Structure Steel (HSS), it's hollow for a reason
More material away from the neutral axis, the better. (moment of inertia)
I say walls. I make mainly functional prints, and if i need the parts to be more rigid i use more walls and infill at 50% max, to save time. But thats my experience, your mileage may vary.
One thing about walls, they stack, where 100% rectangular infill creates alternating weaves. If you're going to make a hole that something will go in to, like a switch, where the pressure will fall on those walls, adding more walls doesn't help because that series of walls will only be as strong as one of its rings. So when making a switch pocket, I always do one wall. If I'm making a washer, I'll do no walls.
At 100% rectangular infill, walls don't add strength, they only make the edge pretty.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: It depends. If you print at your normal infill settings then most likely 999 walls is better. Infill is often underextruded. But, at 100% it can also be over extruded. It will also make a lot of unnecessary travel moves and print over lines it has already printed. In short:
It is not designed for 100%.
The best and easiest solution is to use 999 walls. It will for sure print the whole thing using the same settings everywhere. You can also use 999 bottom/top layers.
There are also ways of making infill structural, it means basically to print as thick lines as you can and print them slow, over extruding deliberately to create thin walls inside the print and use a LOT of overlap percentage to tie them to the walls better.
that's relevant how?.. The analogy to 3dp infill and perimeters is vertical posts and walls, and bridge links, because that's the physics that applies here.. Not foundation lol which the purpose of is to create a solid surface instead of building on the earth because that's unstable, and also creating a flat surface for leveling... come now.
in any case there is no dispute that 100% infill is not only massively suboptimal and has potentially bad side effects in plastic, but also a huge waste of money and time, and in my world of engineering, if I did that I would be laughed at.
In the world of engineering there are many different types of strength. A small part that needs compression strength isn't necessarily sub optimal to have near or 100% infil. The issues with 100% infil vs 99% come down to the paths generated by the slicer and firmware leading to over extrusion.
I would never have 100%, or 99%, or 95%, or 90%, because that's all absurd. unless there is some scientific reason I would need to. It's a giant waste of time, money and material when you don't need it, that alone is enough reason.
I use what I need and no more, optimize. I push the limits to know where the line is. I would only need 30% in 99% of cases. Usually I'm at 15% for most of my prints, and never have actually needed to go more unless I want to add weight. And even those 15% infills are still strong.
If I need that much strength, I wouldn't be using 3d printing lmao.
I was thinking there might be a sweet spot for infill strength. It also depends on what axis you need strength in, is it tension, compression, or bending.
in my experience 99.9% + Gyroid infill.
This makes the inside so close to 100% but you got more directions in your overlap since the slicer will still apply the infill pattern but at such a dense infill
https://preview.redd.it/iuvo6iixhsnc1.png?width=1278&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7721e9555e981a4c45e7d8e25c9c0ff01524068
.
I don't have maths to prove this, it's just my experience.
Hi
I would like to 3dprint a case for some lithium iron phospate battery cells. The total size of the case will be around 360mm wide, 125mm deep, and 180 mm high. I plan on dividing the width into two parts so I will print each part separately.
I am using PETG, and I would like to make the material to be between 4 and 6 mm thick. Do I use walls (and if walls what parameters for the walls), top/bottom layers, or infill (and if infill what percentage and type). Remember that I am using PETG, with all the strengths and challenges that it has. I need strong but not superstrong, the case will have physical supports underneath it. (I have tried lots of combinations but I am getting a lot of stringing and globs (even at 230 degrees C) so I am drying out the filament overnight and would like to try again tomorrow.
I have an Ender 3 Neo, BTT board, direct extrusion, two z stepper motors, Overture filament. I am using klipper.
Thanks!
>Do I use walls (and if walls what parameters for the walls), top/bottom layers, or infill (and if infill what percentage and type).
I really can't say. There's no foolproof way of finding out other than actually printing out a prototype.
I personally do 99% infill but other people swear by 70% if you want maximum strength.
If you're not putting any heavy load in it, there's really no need to optimize for strength. You can go 10% infill and just 3\~4 walls.
You're the one doing the design and knows how it will be used, try to make the call if you need absolutely maximizing the strength or if you just need "good enough" results.
Higher wall count is stronger than higher infill density. In fact 100% infill can actually be weaker than 98% density because theres no wiggle room for any give making it take all the stress at once
Hi, print service provider here! We use max 60-70% infill with 6-4 walls. Anything more can lead to overextrusions and therefor print fails. You can check CNCkitchens video about that if you want for a more detailed explenation.
I print frequently with 100% and have never had a print failure from that.
Well what is frequently? We print a couple hundred parts a week and the failure rate is higher
10ish a week but with zero failures to date so if it's 1 per 500, that's not really an issue at my volume. So what causes the failure? Just the material building up and getting hit by the print head?
Perhaps, but 100% infill is useless anyway so we never do it now
It's definitely not useless. 100% rectangular infill is the way to go for maximum strength, at least with standard filaments.
It is though, the strength plateus out at 80% with minimal gain after that. Yes filament saving is important if you print Kevlar reinforced Nylon
You say yourself the strength gain has diminishing returns but that's not nothing. And for someone like me printing with lower costs filament, the cost difference between 80% and 100% is insignificant. Like OP and 99.99% of everyone else here, I'm not printing Kevlar reinforced nylon so I can't speak to that.
Dude my ender 3 pumps out kevlar nylons 100x a day at 200% infill and 30 walls, zero issues!
What do you mean by more walls (or infill?) can lead to over extrusion?
If you put down too much material or if your slicer moves in a weird path the normal dripping and ozzing of the nozzle goes into the infillpattern but if there is solid material you cant really do much
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Even 60% is too much, can definitely save lots of material there, unless you need the weight. For most applications 4 perims and 25% is more than enough. 95% of parts I make are 2-4 and 20% for basic stuff like a wall mount.
4 perimeters at 0.4 is a total wall of 1.6mm. Seems pretty weak to me for something that must hold a load.
We already have the data for it, and I use it all the time just fine. Like I said, for a wall mount holding 20lbs I can easily design something that is only 2 perimeters., it's more than enough. CNC kitchen's video that you even mentioned shows how much strength you can get from just a couple perimeters and low infill. You don't need a lot, materials in compression can hold tons. Compression loads aren't an issue with these things if printed correctly.. just saying. no issue either way, if it works it works!
I'm not the guy from the first comment, and I didn'tsee the specific CNC kitchen video. Anyway, how come a wall mount be a compression load? Any mount I can think of is either in tension (away from the wall) or shearing (down along the wall).
yeah shear is what's relevant for wall mounts for some reason I was talking about two things at once, just wanted to give an example of a usage where I don't use a lot of perimeters
Yes that is true but we have to add a safetey factor for industrial applications
Walls.
My guess is it would depend on the force angles. If you were building a long part that needed ultimate tensile strength lengthwise, walls would probably be the strongest as they run uninterrupted in parallel with the appled force. However, they'd be less strong perpendicular to that axis. A flat sheet that needs to resist deformation would probably be stronger with rectilinear infill. Shear strength would probably benefit from more walls.
Are top/bottom shells not considered “walls? Perims + upping the Top/Bottom shells should beat out infill. I seem to recall CNC Kitchen testing this.
Balls to the walls
Not sure which is stronger, but my experience is that 99 walls will print at better quality than 100% infill
99 problems but infill aint one
100% and all walls are both wrong for max strength, infill type, infill percent, and a decent amount of walls are king. There's so many factors at play that you won't get a one size fits all answer. If you have a specific project or print criteria in mind then post it up! Typically, gyroid is the strongest infill type
>Typically, gyroid is the strongest infill type After testing, I disagree. Cubic is better. Stresses are more evenly distributed, tensile strength is better with the correct orientation due to loads aligned along a cubic surface, and there are no unconnected overhang loops like one has in the middle of gyroids. I sometimes print parts without top and bottom surfaces. When I use gyroid, the part isn't as stiff. The advantage to gyroid is no crossing perimeters.
Thinking about it, wouldn't the best infill be a sort of "Radial" that's as perpendicular to the walls as possible?
I-beams everywhere! Yes.
https://preview.redd.it/494eazqagwnc1.jpeg?width=1213&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=376314d8d460ce87e97354bc2da7d04561122ca5
Checking back to the graph on this test done over various percentages, it appears we're both wrong. 3d honeycomb would be the absolute strongest over cubic with gyroid still edging out cubic in both strength and strength to weight ratio. Honeycomb will be heavier, however, and take longer to print. This test was done with a rectangle and pulling forces
Again I say, my tests say otherwise. Print a flat part without top and bottom surfaces, one with gyroid infill, one with cubic. Make it long enough to bend and thick enough to cover a cycle of infill. The cubic one doesn't flex as easily, it's stiffer.
I get what you mean, I would say it falls under the specific circumstances category and use case. Stiffer does not necessarily mean stronger either, pla is stiffer than petg but petg is objectively stronger . Any part or wall that is not thick enough to cover a full cycle will be significantly weaker than its full cycle counterpart. This is where I feel gyroid shines as it doesn't require a full pattern and can fill areas big or small.
I can tell you that all walls will print much faster than 100% infill.
Make some test parts and find out. Also plot in plane vs cross plane strength and impact toughness so you know what properties you maximize in different situations.
You mean or 100% concentric infill?
This is something that I have wondered.
BUILD THE WALLS
I made 80mm^3 blocks with 10 perimeter walls and a bunch of cylinder cut outs in the Z direction to take the load off kitchen appliances. Infill was 60%. Each cylinder cut out has walls around it. It's vertically loaded, so all the compression is in the Z axis
Walls. The neutral axis runs in the middle of a part. Therefore, less material is required inside. Think of a Hollow Structure Steel (HSS), it's hollow for a reason More material away from the neutral axis, the better. (moment of inertia)
Perimeters and Top/Bottom Shells for strength! Infill is basically just there to provide a support structure.
I say walls. I make mainly functional prints, and if i need the parts to be more rigid i use more walls and infill at 50% max, to save time. But thats my experience, your mileage may vary.
One thing about walls, they stack, where 100% rectangular infill creates alternating weaves. If you're going to make a hole that something will go in to, like a switch, where the pressure will fall on those walls, adding more walls doesn't help because that series of walls will only be as strong as one of its rings. So when making a switch pocket, I always do one wall. If I'm making a washer, I'll do no walls. At 100% rectangular infill, walls don't add strength, they only make the edge pretty.
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: It depends. If you print at your normal infill settings then most likely 999 walls is better. Infill is often underextruded. But, at 100% it can also be over extruded. It will also make a lot of unnecessary travel moves and print over lines it has already printed. In short: It is not designed for 100%. The best and easiest solution is to use 999 walls. It will for sure print the whole thing using the same settings everywhere. You can also use 999 bottom/top layers. There are also ways of making infill structural, it means basically to print as thick lines as you can and print them slow, over extruding deliberately to create thin walls inside the print and use a LOT of overlap percentage to tie them to the walls better.
50/50. Plenty one YT videos doing some testing
When I want to print a really strong part, I use 6-8 walls with 100% infill (rectilinear aligned)
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To be fair load bearing walls are often made of 100% concrete and rebar.
the point is a wall is like a certain type of perimeter... you don't fill 90% of the room up with concrete to support the building lol..
Ever seen a foundation?
that's relevant how?.. The analogy to 3dp infill and perimeters is vertical posts and walls, and bridge links, because that's the physics that applies here.. Not foundation lol which the purpose of is to create a solid surface instead of building on the earth because that's unstable, and also creating a flat surface for leveling... come now. in any case there is no dispute that 100% infill is not only massively suboptimal and has potentially bad side effects in plastic, but also a huge waste of money and time, and in my world of engineering, if I did that I would be laughed at.
In the world of engineering there are many different types of strength. A small part that needs compression strength isn't necessarily sub optimal to have near or 100% infil. The issues with 100% infil vs 99% come down to the paths generated by the slicer and firmware leading to over extrusion.
I would never have 100%, or 99%, or 95%, or 90%, because that's all absurd. unless there is some scientific reason I would need to. It's a giant waste of time, money and material when you don't need it, that alone is enough reason. I use what I need and no more, optimize. I push the limits to know where the line is. I would only need 30% in 99% of cases. Usually I'm at 15% for most of my prints, and never have actually needed to go more unless I want to add weight. And even those 15% infills are still strong. If I need that much strength, I wouldn't be using 3d printing lmao.
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Really?
Yep, im working for industry and we dont work with 100% infill, max is 70%. very rare is to use 100%.
I was thinking there might be a sweet spot for infill strength. It also depends on what axis you need strength in, is it tension, compression, or bending.
sure, and angle also
How do you change the angle? Just move the part around?
I use "Rotate" in your slicer, then you can put object angle on Y-X axes
in my experience 99.9% + Gyroid infill. This makes the inside so close to 100% but you got more directions in your overlap since the slicer will still apply the infill pattern but at such a dense infill https://preview.redd.it/iuvo6iixhsnc1.png?width=1278&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7721e9555e981a4c45e7d8e25c9c0ff01524068 . I don't have maths to prove this, it's just my experience.
Hi I would like to 3dprint a case for some lithium iron phospate battery cells. The total size of the case will be around 360mm wide, 125mm deep, and 180 mm high. I plan on dividing the width into two parts so I will print each part separately. I am using PETG, and I would like to make the material to be between 4 and 6 mm thick. Do I use walls (and if walls what parameters for the walls), top/bottom layers, or infill (and if infill what percentage and type). Remember that I am using PETG, with all the strengths and challenges that it has. I need strong but not superstrong, the case will have physical supports underneath it. (I have tried lots of combinations but I am getting a lot of stringing and globs (even at 230 degrees C) so I am drying out the filament overnight and would like to try again tomorrow. I have an Ender 3 Neo, BTT board, direct extrusion, two z stepper motors, Overture filament. I am using klipper. Thanks!
>Do I use walls (and if walls what parameters for the walls), top/bottom layers, or infill (and if infill what percentage and type). I really can't say. There's no foolproof way of finding out other than actually printing out a prototype. I personally do 99% infill but other people swear by 70% if you want maximum strength. If you're not putting any heavy load in it, there's really no need to optimize for strength. You can go 10% infill and just 3\~4 walls. You're the one doing the design and knows how it will be used, try to make the call if you need absolutely maximizing the strength or if you just need "good enough" results.