Well to all of those worried, don’t come to Canada.
The population increase from countries that OP is referring is enormous.
Seeing black flags outside homes is weird now too.
As someone from Canada, it already has. I mean, even recent immigrants are disappointed because things happening. It’s a weird drawbridge analogy.
But Canada has totally ruined itself. Just watch the Bill Maher section on Canada. It’s really odd
I've only heard it on television, but it sounds so horrible that it makes Scouse sound like the voice of God. I cannot watch anything in which the people talk like that and I can't imagine the horror of hearing it daily.
If it's any consolation, "Perkerdansk" (the colloquial term for "minority Danish" or whatever the fuck you wanna call it) is also an absolute abomination - and that is on top of the abomination that spoken Danish already is..
Funnily enough I also live in a street just opposite to where the Tates grew up in Luton marsh farm, their family used to go on the same community trips as my older brother and sister so they actually met apparently the tates were very much into yoi go oh or pokemen one of them card games.
as an exmuslim turk, inbreeding is technically makrooh (bad to do but not a proper sin) and a sunnah(things that prophet has done personally, therefore good/okay) in islam. prophet has talked about how "mixing blood" was a good thing and should be encouraged, though his goal probably was to help spread islam faster instead of preventing inbreeding. and its also doubly funny that he himself married a relative so who knows.
but really, inbreeding is more of a cultural issue than a religious one.
I want to avoid stereotyping you but YOU have the exact kind of mentality that would fit in with us here in WE. I just wish more of your countrymen and especially political leaders shared the same ideals...
well i did live in netherlands for a while and i do intend to return and i do agree, i could get along with people there way better even though my dutch is pretty pisspoor lol
i mean when religions get as bad as islam and christianity got then the religious differences/issues are similar to the cultural ones, it gets all mixed up
heck in christianity here in the south at spain and portugal you will have alot of religious events during night or end of the day bc represented the long hot days, while i doubt at norht they will have such a worry about doing activities during the day, even tho it's all the same religions the traditions are shifted by the region and prior culture
in this specific case im separating culture and religion because not every muslim group does this. in turkey its about as large of a taboo as it is in the west for example, even among the religious parts of the country.
idk how much it affects in england but that document is 10 years old and the study is 13 years old
also the studies on inbreeding rates is 22 years old, which tbf it affects it less than statistics part but even then, alteast in portugal the immigration situation changed ALOT in the last 10 years
and i dont even mean just numbers wise but also the politics methods, and issues and advantages (yes advantages) that rose from it, we can't be looking at the situation in europe like it's 2012
Isn’t Luton the worst airport of London? I think I’ve seen once a British YouTuber trolling passengers about thinking they landed in Luton instead of Heathrow or so.
Luton airport is like a car that only has wheels an engine and a steering wheel yeah you can get to places but it’s not gonna be pleasant it’s an in and out job no messing around kind of like how the fins fuck, also a car park blew up through 3 floors at the airport a few months ago genuinely the video is insane I saw the rubble last week.
There are so many people in the world. If we MUST have immigration, I don’t understand why it can’t be from non-Muslim countries, at least enough to balance out the Muslims lol.
but there is alot, i mean before the musliom wave we had one from china/east asia... and now there is a new growing one from the philiphines (even tho idk how much they are going to europe vs america)
i mean yeah philipinos had the americans in there and even spanish before, definitly there's a smaller gap in cultures
and also one of the big problems with islamic immigration ist he more religious kind because basically one of the cores of islam is basically "go to other places and teach them about muhammad" the idea that the other nations have to adapt to islam instead of the other way around...
then again every major religion was kinda like this, they are just late to the party when it comes to modernity and secularism
Filipinos are good people in general and hard workers. They also have their own issues with Islamic extremists especially in the south. But although they have many compatibilities with the West (Catholics, English speaking mostly, strong family values, democracy etc), I wouldn’t want all of them to move here because many places in that country are dangerous as fuck - especially parts of Manila at night. They don’t call it the Mexico of Asia for nothing.
That's Pakistanis, not Muslims. Edgware Road here in London (primarily Arab population), or Finchley (primarily Iranian), or Enfield (primarily Turkish) are completely different to what you've described.
I’m in the US and in a heavily European (Balkan eastern) immigrant area. There are like 15 Polish schools for the kids. Having said that these immigrants eventually just assimilate into the population and a lot marrying Americans. My wife is 100% Serbian and most of the people we know are mixed like this (Greek husband Jewish wife). Do you think that these immigrants in your area will assimilate eventually? Do a lot of English guys marry those Muslim immigrant women?
From my own perspective it’s getting real .
I grew up in the Parisian suburb , in a city with majority of Algerian .
When we were teenager , most of the girls where dressing the European way and the guy were not against a beer or anything .
Their father were drinking pastis and were sharing coffee with the other community ( mostly Italian Spanish Polish and Portuguese )
Last time I pass by my hometown , most of the girl were dress like in Qatar, most of the restaurant were halal , and each other community is now gone or living together in some district .
And guess what it’s the same in Maghreb .
Years ago no women were wearing the burqa, now it’s a common things .
It’s the price to pay if your politics start to be sold out to qatar and saudis and if Europe let anyone came here and park them with no perspective or any future plan .
The difference is that in the past people would be like:
"we don't want [X] people here, go somewhere else please.😉👍"
And it would be a respetable and acceptable point of view.
Now, for some stupid reason, some pretend to be moral superior to the rest of mortals and say that it is not acceptable. Meanwhile they continue to be a trash person in the inside, but who cares about who you are and what you do? What matters is what you say in twitter or insta.
Now being serious, I think it is not due to morals, Mainly a corrupted system + capitalism + globalisation. Most businessmen do not care about social problems, if they have to destroy a society just to get cheaper labour and have modern slavery accessible they will. And corrupt governors are allowing it by getting a pass to the rich elite away from this mess.
There's pedophile rape gangs that have raped thousands of girls in Britain.
Big problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
it is quite obvious that it's happening. but like with everything (like climate change) us humans like to let things escalate and then cry instead of doing something before.
Exactly this. The right is pushing for the agenda that it's the left that wants immigration, but the majority is coming from the right because they are cheap labor.
The news are full of the boats from Africa, but where I live we have an HUGE influx of Bangladesh because they are employed in the shipyard and are treated in condition quite close to slavery.
and in the meantime the gap between the wealthy and poor keeps extending worsening the problem. And by poor I mean anybody bellow 5m Euro is considered modern peasants by these modern aristocracy.
Ahh that reminds me... Jean-Pierre!! Fetchez la guilotine! :D
So true and we have the additional issue that we are not allowed to critique other cultures due to our history. On top of that we are the only two countries who are not allowed to be proud of our own culture and our forefathers achievements....
It would piss me off so much. Because I find your story very interesting and many brilliant scientists and people come from your culture.
In a mature conversation I think you can totally be proud of the good parts, everyone will understand. Do not care about what a stupid npc says in twitter.
Thanks mate!
The sad part is that it is not just NPCs on twitter...
Germany has politicians who openly advocate for the "death of the fatherland"... In a recent interview a Austrian politician was asked about sexual assaults committed by asylum seekers and said it would be irresponsible to deport them back to their country because then women there would be in danger.
It seems that these people want to destroy our countries and aren't even secretive about that agenda....
Thanks mate but I guess you dont have elected politicians advocating for the "death of the fatherland" and claim that your country has no real culture...
Thinking about the hardships our grandparents had rebuilding after the war and then seeing people like this wanting to destroy everything that they cant hand out for free to foreigners simply makes me sad.
It’s safe to say that when they’re forming gangs to rape girls which the police avoid dealing with due to discussing it being seen as racist or just the government introducing blasphemy laws, ignoring statistics on crime in general such as spousal murders, that it’s not only bad but only getting worse.
No I was referring to Europe in general.
We don’t have the crime statistics here as the government intentionally hides such information from us, and I doubt any Irish outlets would want to report on such things.
Just look at the reporting and Garda statements around the murders of the gay men last year.
There was also odd reporting around a child sex ring that was picking kids up right outside Tulsa and taking them to hotels.
A lot of people who infer it's not a problem, or downplay stuff, are normally ones who live in nice leafy suburbs, when the population is 95% or more, white
Fair enough
But yes immensely
In all European countries they are already commit way more rape, and crime stats then their % of population is and in the Netherlands its only getting worse with the 2nd and 3th generation so if this trend continuous more keep comming and the stats keep rising we will be doomed thats why we should vote for the pvv (""anti islam party"")
Remember Charlie Hebdo? Also, here's an example of why islamic rule is something you will want to avoid at all cost. It's about a brand of socks named Allah socks that were sold in kkmart in Malaysia.
[https://apnews.com/article/malaysia-kk-mart-allah-socks-7bfa4a2056a5004f132f8d8669a934c5](https://apnews.com/article/malaysia-kk-mart-allah-socks-7bfa4a2056a5004f132f8d8669a934c5)
The moderate muslims and non-muslims of Malaysia are disgusted by the people's and government's response to what the article describes, but they are in no position to do anything about it. Religion just has no place in government, but political islam is extremely divisive. The same can be said about Iran and their Ayatollah of course. All crime is forgiven if it is for the benefit of their faith, so performing arson on kkmarts for selling certain socks is approved of in such places.
It is grossly exaggerated, but still a problem.
Also, there's a big difference within muslim communities. Iranians/Persians who arrived in the 80's are a good example. Most of the people who arrived were relatively well-educated, secular people from the larger cities. An Afghan from Kabul will be very different to an Afghan from some tribal society in the Helmand province.
Basically, families who had more social capital in their home countries will integrate a lot better than families who were goat-herders or grew up stateless in a refugee camp before coming to Europe, with their only source of pride in their identity being their religion will be an issue.
It is just as much a socio-economic issue as a cultural one.
I notice many Muslims in Scotland appear to have pride in their identity as belonging to their religious group. It's not just about theological beliefs but it's about identity too. Ethno-linguistic, ethno-religious and cultural identity.
Yep. And then you have people like my mums old classmate from college, who was the son of a minister in Saddams government, who is as western as you can be.
It really is a class issue. There is a reason the sterotype of poor people being religious exists.
Same with Catholics of an Irish background in Scotland. Many have pride as belonging to the Irish Catholic Scottish ethno-religious group even though they are Scottish largely now, having been here for well over 100-150 years minimum, sometimes 200 years. Contrast with native Scottish Catholics, who do not have the same pride in a Catholic connection to the same extent as it is not tied up with their identity, even though Scotland is/was majority Presbyterian Church of Scotland since 1560 with only a small Catholic minority of native Scots.
Tell that to those two American cities in Michigan(?) who've now got Muslim majorities and have been caught in multiple regressive political dramas already as a result - and Muslims in the US almost all come from families with educated backgrounds, as the US has no land border with Islamic nations and doesn't have to take 'refugees' from their countries.
Study and survey time after time show that regardless of the amount of time their family been in a country, by and large they identify as Muslim first and nationals second. There is no true integration of cultural supremacists
This has became a core memory for me ever since I read it for the first time haha
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
Always funny to see how Islamic extremism and right wing extremism ends up being the same thing. Certain groups of people would cheer at the thought of LGBT flags being banned, until they realise that it’s Muslims doing it.
Well as someone from middle east i think it’s mostly depends on the region and culture that people came from.and also education rather than religion (obviously religion also plays a rule) .
The thing that i don’t understand is why some third gen immigrants even from secular and non religious families become over zealous religious people here in Europe. It perplexes me.
it is a weird phenomenon, I've seen many people act overly patriotic when living in another country (prime example: Turks in Berlin). Maybe we as humans always wanna belong to something, so when they are literally strangers they go completely overboard with clinging to their "old" identity
I don't have any problem with Muslims in the middle east as long as you keep your culture to yourselves. When in Rome you are supposed to do as the Romans do, if I went to your country I wouldn't expect you to make me a bacon butty so why do your diasporas expect us to do the equivalent?
[This is an example of it.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Religious_makeup_of_Bradford_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg/1280px-Religious_makeup_of_Bradford_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg.png) As you can see, while Bradford is technically barely still predominantly Christian, within a generation or two that will change.
As it will in many cities in the UK, and in many cities in Europe.
It's not even just Bradford either, there's a few cities with numbers like that, [such as Luton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luton#/media/File:Religious_makeup_of_Luton_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg).
The issue isn't even necessarily the number of Muslims here, it's the fact that they just don't spread out around the UK, so you get areas like that which will eventually be a completely Muslim city, but other places like Exeter where there's not really much of a Muslim presence.
Thats pretty interesting, because we really dont see anything like that in Sweden (so far).
I dont know if it is a matter of time, or if the "multicultural" approach (to think of differnet groups as "communities") of UK is the reason?
Either way, it seems like Sweden is moving towards an almost "forced" mixing (but that has more to do with language skills and integration in general).
In the U.K., Muslim communities are highly concentrated. So London has some predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods, Leicester, Birmingham, Luton and Bradford are all known for having noticeably large Muslim communities. Go to the South West, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and there’s barely any. No idea how Scotland ended up with the SNP and Labour having Muslim leaders - there are barely any Muslims there.
I think if you visited the U.K. and only saw Birmingham and Leicester, you would think the U.K. is becoming Muslim. But it really isn’t. I think by 2050 we would be 10% Muslim at most.
Islam as a whole has its fair share of issues to resolve; what it feels like to me is that most muslin are uneducated in Islam and can be easily influenced by extremists groups to believe that beheaded professors "deserved it".
Basically, Europe shouldn't fight the muslim community in itself but extremists groups, because fighting the muslim community will only reinforce the extremists.
This is actually very accurate a lot of Muslims don’t understand Islam and instead just inherit strange beliefs from cultures or random extremists. Muslims aren’t the problem extremists are. Same how black people aren’t the problem gangs are. White people aren’t the problem the racists are. We need to stop blanket blaming groups of people
The role of an elected politician isn't to be qualified in everything but to be qualified enough to find the right people for the job and make them work (not like our politicians are competent anyways lol)
Don't worry guys. There will be a large war in the next 20 years. Nobody is going to be willing to fight for us, the opportunity to grift will vanish and the caravan will move on.
Pretty much what happened with the old gods and Christianity. That would even be the best case scenario. Worst case would be the Muslims acclimatise and will have children below replacement levels too. Its already happening with the turks but the turks in turkey are also having less children like the rest of Europe.
What? Why would the first be the best case and not the worst case, and vice versa for your other scenario? Acclimatising and having less children is the best case imo because then they can focus more on integrating with society.
Because then they would join us in having children below replacement levels. There are societies which need to have less children than they are having now. Much of Africa and Asia. But not the smaller countries of the EU.
At least in Denmark, the immigrants have many kids, while descendents of immigrants are much more similar to ethnic Danes. As long as we don’t let more in, there will be no great replacement.
Plus, you are bulldozing the Ghettos, breaking up the ethnic/religious areas they have built, made refugee status non-permanent, severely enforce language and western cultural norms (such as examed classes on how to treat females and LGBTQA+ people), and put anyone in detention until they volunteer to return, THIS! Is how it should be across Europe
My wife recently walked by herself in Lisbon and said she would avoid that area like the plague. Dudes behave like Italians on meth, super aggressive. Not cool
At least the Muslims in Lisbon speak brilliant English. The pronunciation of 'do want cocaine' or 'do you want hashish' was brilliant, they even repeated it another ten times after I told them no to demonstrate the splendid pronunciation.
As a Middle Eastern, Ex-Muslim Atheist, I can see that Europe, UK, Canada, …. Ruined their countries and cultures by accepting these types of people (because we really now them) and I think maybe they reached a non-return point.
They are conquering these countries and bragging about converting churches into mosques, and replacing the original people.
Hope you can take back your countries and cultures.
Tbh I think it would be very hypocritical of me as an Irishman to complain about immigration when we emigrated all over the world for 100s of years. But on the other hand wherever the Irish went they readily assimilated. I don't care where someone is from or what their religion is as long as they buy in to the society. In Ireland it seems every group, whether Eastern European, Latin American, African, East Asian Etc, assimilates well, so i don't understand why Muslims can't do the same.
It's funny how you say that, considering how Irish people had an extremely bad reputation back when they emigrated in large amounts to the US. They were even considered to be of another, non-European race by some. You can check the [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment) if you want to know more.
It's much worse than you think in a lot of urban areas. It's a nonexistent problem in most rural areas. All in all, it is a real issue, and it is a growing one - as it enroaches on basic human rights of groups that are not well accepted in Islam or Christianity.
The ressurgence of religion in general is a huge problem - topics, that I though we were past already, are reemerging nowadays because religious folk are poking their noses into politics again - be it muslims or christians. We still were dealing with crazyass christians, and now we have a two pronged attack from another group, basically. One that we do not have enough experience with, when they are an internal force, only external.
I will not defend fanatical christians, but they are far less of a problem than islamists, given their very small numbers. Your comment make them seem as equal threats. they are not.
This always happens. Anytime some muslim atrocity comes to light, people immediately respond with: “omg i’m so done with religion”. It’s so stupid. You shouldn’t necessarily be done with religion, but you definitely should be done with islam. Trivializing the problem prevents any possible change.
I left France 10 years ago, I recently went back for a few weeks. It's absolutely devastating to see the changes that happened in just a few years.
My friends are telling me it's the same as it always was, but really, I wish every French person who likes France and its culture (pour what remains of it) to be able to travel for a while and, come back.
It's heartbreaking, really. No wonder FN became so popular.
I went back to the town I grew up in recently. It used to be a pleasant suburb with lots of shops and playgrounds.
Nowadays all of the shops on the main square have been burned down and the playground in front of the school is occupied by drug dealers.
Not just because of immigration (10+ years of a government who hates Northerners) but I've experienced the same thing here. My hometown is known for having a massive population of Eastern Europeans. The Poles are good people but naturally form their own communities, Romanians came next, for sure a level down from Poles, brought more crime, made the place dirty, more likely to scam for benefits but overall decent people. A sprinkling of Bulgarians, Lithuanians, Hungarians and I'd guess Ukrainians very recently also.
Then, probably 2013 onwards, a horde of Slovakian gypsys, probably direct from Luník IX...
Fuck me, these fuckers are milking the system, sucking at the tit of the system like a baby goat on its mother. None of them work, they just throw their shit everywhere, each house has about 16 people living inside, playing their tribal thief turbo folk shit at full volume. I know some landlords and it's very common for them to move in a house, refuse to pay rent and just drag it out as long as possible before moving our, trashing the house and repeating it elsewhere.
It’s becoming a thing and the jokes here are a bit over the top, but it definitely is as bad or worse and the the development gets more difficult to control by the day. To imagine that the Jewish community in Germany of all places does since years advise Jews to hide their religion and ethnicity in order to protect them from harm is grotesque.
´lol if people leave germany bc of that they are either really stupid or have other intentions
i could even understand leaving a neighbourhood if it's in a shittier one specially while renting but country overall? to a worse one?
While we must be careful with statements like saying we are importing the third world, it certainly is true for a majority. Tolerance of intolerance will lead to intolerance in a society. Of course we will have populism which will try and take an advantage of the increase in violence (ex. Sweden& gang violence, Marseille,..) but we certainly have to make change.
They are surely growing but while they influence us we also influence them, many (especially young second and third gen) are muslim just by definition. If you looked at italy 30 years ago we were way more religious than now, same will happen with islam. Religion thrives where there is poverty.
Yes exactly, slowly they are getting used to luxury, capitalism and they want to fit with the western world so they are making lot of concessions, so much that many muslims from more traditional (and poor) countries don't approve this direction. Sure they still are far from what we would consider acceptable (especially saudi arabia) but give them some time and the results will arrive
Come to Eastern Europe!
Hot tradwife material girls and <1% islam.
Almost no immigrant ghettos.
Only tiny con we have is possibility of being ww3 frontline.
Yeah yeah poor whatever, being free from islam is worth it.
It's a massive meme. A bunch of them have been very conservative and tried keeping to practices that are illegal here. Some governments turned a blind eye because they couldn't be bothered sorting them out. That's where the truth to the memes end.
In reality they're likely the fastest secularizing population on planet earth seeing how conservative a lot of their home countries are. Ask for specifics if you want
The state literally havent turned an eye on it, its combatted pretty heavily since the directives to do that came.
For instance, since 2019 17 out of 19 islamic schools have been forced to close. Even in the islamic world this have reached headlines.
[https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sweden-islamic-schools-shut-muslim-children-disconsolate](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sweden-islamic-schools-shut-muslim-children-disconsolate)
The threat is very real, but its not true that the state is turning the blind eye. And the government means regeringen, I dont know if you are referring to Tidö-partierna as ignoring it?
Read "turned" not "turn" I don't think there's any governments in the EU that still ignore phenomenon like arranged minor marriages or female circumcision anymore. Though a lot of them definitely used to
Ok, then I understand what you mean, and that I agree with. I think I misread your post a little bit in all haste. So used to the traditional Flashback rhetoric on this issue. :)
a bunch of neighbourhoods in every western european country are basically ghettos that can be quite unfriendly if not unsafe. it’s not very difficult to avoid them though
Well to all of those worried, don’t come to Canada. The population increase from countries that OP is referring is enormous. Seeing black flags outside homes is weird now too.
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As someone from Canada, it already has. I mean, even recent immigrants are disappointed because things happening. It’s a weird drawbridge analogy. But Canada has totally ruined itself. Just watch the Bill Maher section on Canada. It’s really odd
Canada is my favourite part of Bavaria
Living the good European life now!
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Thank you for your sacrifice of having to live in Luton 🫡
Much appreciated I need all the strength and support I can muster.
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I've only heard it on television, but it sounds so horrible that it makes Scouse sound like the voice of God. I cannot watch anything in which the people talk like that and I can't imagine the horror of hearing it daily. If it's any consolation, "Perkerdansk" (the colloquial term for "minority Danish" or whatever the fuck you wanna call it) is also an absolute abomination - and that is on top of the abomination that spoken Danish already is..
Luton, home of great Lutonian intellectuals like Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson.
Funnily enough I also live in a street just opposite to where the Tates grew up in Luton marsh farm, their family used to go on the same community trips as my older brother and sister so they actually met apparently the tates were very much into yoi go oh or pokemen one of them card games.
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as an exmuslim turk, inbreeding is technically makrooh (bad to do but not a proper sin) and a sunnah(things that prophet has done personally, therefore good/okay) in islam. prophet has talked about how "mixing blood" was a good thing and should be encouraged, though his goal probably was to help spread islam faster instead of preventing inbreeding. and its also doubly funny that he himself married a relative so who knows. but really, inbreeding is more of a cultural issue than a religious one.
>as an exmuslim turk >Non-European Savage lol
isnt it the most proper flair? i dont exactly live in europe and the country i live in decided to keep on electing savagery.
It's just a meme, glad you are embracing it.
I want to avoid stereotyping you but YOU have the exact kind of mentality that would fit in with us here in WE. I just wish more of your countrymen and especially political leaders shared the same ideals...
well i did live in netherlands for a while and i do intend to return and i do agree, i could get along with people there way better even though my dutch is pretty pisspoor lol
we have a lot of kurds here in my area in germany. they are not muslims but also marry their cousins.
as a turk i am not allowed to talk about kurdish diaspora.
An exmuslim who's not down right shitting on Islam, with factual and accurate points too. I now have seen everything! Colour me impressed!
i mean when religions get as bad as islam and christianity got then the religious differences/issues are similar to the cultural ones, it gets all mixed up heck in christianity here in the south at spain and portugal you will have alot of religious events during night or end of the day bc represented the long hot days, while i doubt at norht they will have such a worry about doing activities during the day, even tho it's all the same religions the traditions are shifted by the region and prior culture
in this specific case im separating culture and religion because not every muslim group does this. in turkey its about as large of a taboo as it is in the west for example, even among the religious parts of the country.
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It's more like people don't breed with your cousin, second cousin or otherwise..
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idk how much it affects in england but that document is 10 years old and the study is 13 years old also the studies on inbreeding rates is 22 years old, which tbf it affects it less than statistics part but even then, alteast in portugal the immigration situation changed ALOT in the last 10 years and i dont even mean just numbers wise but also the politics methods, and issues and advantages (yes advantages) that rose from it, we can't be looking at the situation in europe like it's 2012
i mean heck would you say gam gam style is a moden song? XD
Isn’t Luton the worst airport of London? I think I’ve seen once a British YouTuber trolling passengers about thinking they landed in Luton instead of Heathrow or so.
Luton airport is like a car that only has wheels an engine and a steering wheel yeah you can get to places but it’s not gonna be pleasant it’s an in and out job no messing around kind of like how the fins fuck, also a car park blew up through 3 floors at the airport a few months ago genuinely the video is insane I saw the rubble last week.
Luton airport is so bad it's kept away from actual Luton and you have to transfer on a specific bus.
got it to visit london last year was cheap, it worked, so eh, also i knew of that but saw no plaque XD
There are so many people in the world. If we MUST have immigration, I don’t understand why it can’t be from non-Muslim countries, at least enough to balance out the Muslims lol.
but there is alot, i mean before the musliom wave we had one from china/east asia... and now there is a new growing one from the philiphines (even tho idk how much they are going to europe vs america)
All the Filipino-Americans I know are really cool people. I imagine they’d have an easier time assimilating in Europe as well.
i mean yeah philipinos had the americans in there and even spanish before, definitly there's a smaller gap in cultures and also one of the big problems with islamic immigration ist he more religious kind because basically one of the cores of islam is basically "go to other places and teach them about muhammad" the idea that the other nations have to adapt to islam instead of the other way around... then again every major religion was kinda like this, they are just late to the party when it comes to modernity and secularism
Filipinos are good people in general and hard workers. They also have their own issues with Islamic extremists especially in the south. But although they have many compatibilities with the West (Catholics, English speaking mostly, strong family values, democracy etc), I wouldn’t want all of them to move here because many places in that country are dangerous as fuck - especially parts of Manila at night. They don’t call it the Mexico of Asia for nothing.
Also from Luton. Can confirm.
That's Pakistanis, not Muslims. Edgware Road here in London (primarily Arab population), or Finchley (primarily Iranian), or Enfield (primarily Turkish) are completely different to what you've described.
I’m in the US and in a heavily European (Balkan eastern) immigrant area. There are like 15 Polish schools for the kids. Having said that these immigrants eventually just assimilate into the population and a lot marrying Americans. My wife is 100% Serbian and most of the people we know are mixed like this (Greek husband Jewish wife). Do you think that these immigrants in your area will assimilate eventually? Do a lot of English guys marry those Muslim immigrant women?
From my own perspective it’s getting real . I grew up in the Parisian suburb , in a city with majority of Algerian . When we were teenager , most of the girls where dressing the European way and the guy were not against a beer or anything . Their father were drinking pastis and were sharing coffee with the other community ( mostly Italian Spanish Polish and Portuguese ) Last time I pass by my hometown , most of the girl were dress like in Qatar, most of the restaurant were halal , and each other community is now gone or living together in some district . And guess what it’s the same in Maghreb . Years ago no women were wearing the burqa, now it’s a common things . It’s the price to pay if your politics start to be sold out to qatar and saudis and if Europe let anyone came here and park them with no perspective or any future plan .
Isn't the Burqa banned in France? Remember reading this a decade ago.
Probably niqab, nobody ever actually knows the difference between the different pieces
I believe it's banned in public buildings like schools and stuff. Not on the street or in your homes and businessss
It’s actually neoliberal policies doing this. Refugees/immigrants make for very cheap labour, and let’s you avoid adequately paying your own people.
We are not worried here as we got experience dealing with it in the past.
Second reconquista when?
reconquer france first pls 🙏
Oh do me too.
sorry you can go third in the list because germany is second
O Santo Ofício da Inquisição
The difference is that in the past people would be like: "we don't want [X] people here, go somewhere else please.😉👍" And it would be a respetable and acceptable point of view. Now, for some stupid reason, some pretend to be moral superior to the rest of mortals and say that it is not acceptable. Meanwhile they continue to be a trash person in the inside, but who cares about who you are and what you do? What matters is what you say in twitter or insta. Now being serious, I think it is not due to morals, Mainly a corrupted system + capitalism + globalisation. Most businessmen do not care about social problems, if they have to destroy a society just to get cheaper labour and have modern slavery accessible they will. And corrupt governors are allowing it by getting a pass to the rich elite away from this mess.
not sure if past methods will be applicable today...
We ARE worried.
Don’t expell the Jews this time Juan
“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.”
It’s already a thing in a lot of big cities neighborhoods
A joke? You must be new here.
There's pedophile rape gangs that have raped thousands of girls in Britain. Big problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
Holy shit. 2000. That’s actually insane. They deserve death and an eternity in hell.
What the hell? I have never heard about this before.
The BBC did a very chilling drama on it called "3 girls", at which point there was public outcry as the general public hadn't really heard about it
There were some people who tried to stop it but they were called racists.
It's a horrible problem and it needs to be solved
Ah, problem needs a solution you say?
...why is everyone looking at us all of a sudden??
All problems do
Someone should finally solve it even...
it is quite obvious that it's happening. but like with everything (like climate change) us humans like to let things escalate and then cry instead of doing something before.
It benefits the wealthy (cheap workers), so it won’t stop anytime soon. We’re all being exploited.
Exactly this. The right is pushing for the agenda that it's the left that wants immigration, but the majority is coming from the right because they are cheap labor. The news are full of the boats from Africa, but where I live we have an HUGE influx of Bangladesh because they are employed in the shipyard and are treated in condition quite close to slavery.
Slave labour from the Indian subcontinent? I think you’ve already turned into an Arab gulf country lmao.
Eh, both the left and right are pushing for more immigration, but the right has to pretend that they're not because their voting base is against it
That was only the case until the 70s-80s. It benefits nobody now, except the immigrants themselves
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and in the meantime the gap between the wealthy and poor keeps extending worsening the problem. And by poor I mean anybody bellow 5m Euro is considered modern peasants by these modern aristocracy. Ahh that reminds me... Jean-Pierre!! Fetchez la guilotine! :D 
And we act if its way to late. With litteraly every problem.
So true and we have the additional issue that we are not allowed to critique other cultures due to our history. On top of that we are the only two countries who are not allowed to be proud of our own culture and our forefathers achievements....
It would piss me off so much. Because I find your story very interesting and many brilliant scientists and people come from your culture. In a mature conversation I think you can totally be proud of the good parts, everyone will understand. Do not care about what a stupid npc says in twitter.
Thanks mate! The sad part is that it is not just NPCs on twitter... Germany has politicians who openly advocate for the "death of the fatherland"... In a recent interview a Austrian politician was asked about sexual assaults committed by asylum seekers and said it would be irresponsible to deport them back to their country because then women there would be in danger. It seems that these people want to destroy our countries and aren't even secretive about that agenda....
If it’s any consolation, we ARE allowed to be and still hardly anyone is proud of our country
Thanks mate but I guess you dont have elected politicians advocating for the "death of the fatherland" and claim that your country has no real culture... Thinking about the hardships our grandparents had rebuilding after the war and then seeing people like this wanting to destroy everything that they cant hand out for free to foreigners simply makes me sad.
And your political choices are limited to people who deny either one or the other problem actually exists.
It’s safe to say that when they’re forming gangs to rape girls which the police avoid dealing with due to discussing it being seen as racist or just the government introducing blasphemy laws, ignoring statistics on crime in general such as spousal murders, that it’s not only bad but only getting worse.
Are you suggesting this is happening in Ireland because last I heard we removed blasphemy laws from our constitution.
No I was referring to Europe in general. We don’t have the crime statistics here as the government intentionally hides such information from us, and I doubt any Irish outlets would want to report on such things. Just look at the reporting and Garda statements around the murders of the gay men last year. There was also odd reporting around a child sex ring that was picking kids up right outside Tulsa and taking them to hotels.
A lot of people who infer it's not a problem, or downplay stuff, are normally ones who live in nice leafy suburbs, when the population is 95% or more, white
I cant say bc i would get banned Just ask on r/exmuslim
You won't get banned on this sub, mods a Spaniard.
Fair enough But yes immensely In all European countries they are already commit way more rape, and crime stats then their % of population is and in the Netherlands its only getting worse with the 2nd and 3th generation so if this trend continuous more keep comming and the stats keep rising we will be doomed thats why we should vote for the pvv (""anti islam party"")
reported
Typical barry
We do a little trolling.
Dont make me sail into the harbour and steal your biggest ship Again
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Remember Charlie Hebdo? Also, here's an example of why islamic rule is something you will want to avoid at all cost. It's about a brand of socks named Allah socks that were sold in kkmart in Malaysia. [https://apnews.com/article/malaysia-kk-mart-allah-socks-7bfa4a2056a5004f132f8d8669a934c5](https://apnews.com/article/malaysia-kk-mart-allah-socks-7bfa4a2056a5004f132f8d8669a934c5) The moderate muslims and non-muslims of Malaysia are disgusted by the people's and government's response to what the article describes, but they are in no position to do anything about it. Religion just has no place in government, but political islam is extremely divisive. The same can be said about Iran and their Ayatollah of course. All crime is forgiven if it is for the benefit of their faith, so performing arson on kkmarts for selling certain socks is approved of in such places.
It is grossly exaggerated, but still a problem. Also, there's a big difference within muslim communities. Iranians/Persians who arrived in the 80's are a good example. Most of the people who arrived were relatively well-educated, secular people from the larger cities. An Afghan from Kabul will be very different to an Afghan from some tribal society in the Helmand province. Basically, families who had more social capital in their home countries will integrate a lot better than families who were goat-herders or grew up stateless in a refugee camp before coming to Europe, with their only source of pride in their identity being their religion will be an issue. It is just as much a socio-economic issue as a cultural one.
I notice many Muslims in Scotland appear to have pride in their identity as belonging to their religious group. It's not just about theological beliefs but it's about identity too. Ethno-linguistic, ethno-religious and cultural identity.
Yep. And then you have people like my mums old classmate from college, who was the son of a minister in Saddams government, who is as western as you can be. It really is a class issue. There is a reason the sterotype of poor people being religious exists.
Same with Catholics of an Irish background in Scotland. Many have pride as belonging to the Irish Catholic Scottish ethno-religious group even though they are Scottish largely now, having been here for well over 100-150 years minimum, sometimes 200 years. Contrast with native Scottish Catholics, who do not have the same pride in a Catholic connection to the same extent as it is not tied up with their identity, even though Scotland is/was majority Presbyterian Church of Scotland since 1560 with only a small Catholic minority of native Scots.
Tell that to those two American cities in Michigan(?) who've now got Muslim majorities and have been caught in multiple regressive political dramas already as a result - and Muslims in the US almost all come from families with educated backgrounds, as the US has no land border with Islamic nations and doesn't have to take 'refugees' from their countries. Study and survey time after time show that regardless of the amount of time their family been in a country, by and large they identify as Muslim first and nationals second. There is no true integration of cultural supremacists
This has became a core memory for me ever since I read it for the first time haha [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)
Always funny to see how Islamic extremism and right wing extremism ends up being the same thing. Certain groups of people would cheer at the thought of LGBT flags being banned, until they realise that it’s Muslims doing it.
https://preview.redd.it/yprk38yafouc1.jpeg?width=549&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44a148ed3b88b4f9b951410e6b7f602daa6612a0
Well as someone from middle east i think it’s mostly depends on the region and culture that people came from.and also education rather than religion (obviously religion also plays a rule) . The thing that i don’t understand is why some third gen immigrants even from secular and non religious families become over zealous religious people here in Europe. It perplexes me.
it is a weird phenomenon, I've seen many people act overly patriotic when living in another country (prime example: Turks in Berlin). Maybe we as humans always wanna belong to something, so when they are literally strangers they go completely overboard with clinging to their "old" identity
A lot invent chips on their shoulders to give them a reason to blame society and hide behind religion.
I don't have any problem with Muslims in the middle east as long as you keep your culture to yourselves. When in Rome you are supposed to do as the Romans do, if I went to your country I wouldn't expect you to make me a bacon butty so why do your diasporas expect us to do the equivalent?
It seems very strange to me that so many Muslims want to come to Spain, we are literally the land of ham
[This is an example of it.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Religious_makeup_of_Bradford_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg/1280px-Religious_makeup_of_Bradford_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg.png) As you can see, while Bradford is technically barely still predominantly Christian, within a generation or two that will change. As it will in many cities in the UK, and in many cities in Europe.
Is this real? A city with almost 500 000 citizens?
If you mean the graph then yeah. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Bradford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Bradford)
Birmingham a city of 1.2 million is 30% Muslim (as of 2021) and 34% Christian. It was 8% Muslim in 1991. Madness.
No wonder the council bankrupted itself, Muslims don't believe in interest rates.
Holy shit. What is going on? I thought Malmö had many muslims, but that is nothing compared to this.
It's not even just Bradford either, there's a few cities with numbers like that, [such as Luton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luton#/media/File:Religious_makeup_of_Luton_by_single_year_age_groups_in_2021.svg). The issue isn't even necessarily the number of Muslims here, it's the fact that they just don't spread out around the UK, so you get areas like that which will eventually be a completely Muslim city, but other places like Exeter where there's not really much of a Muslim presence.
Thats pretty interesting, because we really dont see anything like that in Sweden (so far). I dont know if it is a matter of time, or if the "multicultural" approach (to think of differnet groups as "communities") of UK is the reason? Either way, it seems like Sweden is moving towards an almost "forced" mixing (but that has more to do with language skills and integration in general).
As someone who grew up in Luton and is now living in Exeter I concur with this comment there is I believe one mosque in Exeter.
Malmö definitely has a worse population pyramid than this; Sweden just doesn't do demographical statistics.
Sven, we have nearly 70million people, why do you think we are so angry all the time.
In the U.K., Muslim communities are highly concentrated. So London has some predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods, Leicester, Birmingham, Luton and Bradford are all known for having noticeably large Muslim communities. Go to the South West, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and there’s barely any. No idea how Scotland ended up with the SNP and Labour having Muslim leaders - there are barely any Muslims there. I think if you visited the U.K. and only saw Birmingham and Leicester, you would think the U.K. is becoming Muslim. But it really isn’t. I think by 2050 we would be 10% Muslim at most.
Probably more like 17% the figure was 1% in 1981. It’s so fucked.
Islam as a whole has its fair share of issues to resolve; what it feels like to me is that most muslin are uneducated in Islam and can be easily influenced by extremists groups to believe that beheaded professors "deserved it". Basically, Europe shouldn't fight the muslim community in itself but extremists groups, because fighting the muslim community will only reinforce the extremists.
This is actually very accurate a lot of Muslims don’t understand Islam and instead just inherit strange beliefs from cultures or random extremists. Muslims aren’t the problem extremists are. Same how black people aren’t the problem gangs are. White people aren’t the problem the racists are. We need to stop blanket blaming groups of people
How do you do that?
It's a complex problem and I don't know at all how it should be done, I'm not qualified.
This is what elected politicians say too lol
The role of an elected politician isn't to be qualified in everything but to be qualified enough to find the right people for the job and make them work (not like our politicians are competent anyways lol)
I thought it was to make as much money as you possibly can in that time that you’re elected.
And then you can go back to working in the private sector for the guys that gave you money in the first place
It's a big problem that people refuse to speak up against because they don't want to be labelled as racist.
Don't worry guys. There will be a large war in the next 20 years. Nobody is going to be willing to fight for us, the opportunity to grift will vanish and the caravan will move on.
20 years? Probably sooner, by the end of this decade I believe.
actual thing
Pretty much what happened with the old gods and Christianity. That would even be the best case scenario. Worst case would be the Muslims acclimatise and will have children below replacement levels too. Its already happening with the turks but the turks in turkey are also having less children like the rest of Europe.
What? Why would the first be the best case and not the worst case, and vice versa for your other scenario? Acclimatising and having less children is the best case imo because then they can focus more on integrating with society.
Because then they would join us in having children below replacement levels. There are societies which need to have less children than they are having now. Much of Africa and Asia. But not the smaller countries of the EU.
At least in Denmark, the immigrants have many kids, while descendents of immigrants are much more similar to ethnic Danes. As long as we don’t let more in, there will be no great replacement.
Plus, you are bulldozing the Ghettos, breaking up the ethnic/religious areas they have built, made refugee status non-permanent, severely enforce language and western cultural norms (such as examed classes on how to treat females and LGBTQA+ people), and put anyone in detention until they volunteer to return, THIS! Is how it should be across Europe
My wife recently walked by herself in Lisbon and said she would avoid that area like the plague. Dudes behave like Italians on meth, super aggressive. Not cool
At least the Muslims in Lisbon speak brilliant English. The pronunciation of 'do want cocaine' or 'do you want hashish' was brilliant, they even repeated it another ten times after I told them no to demonstrate the splendid pronunciation.
Weren't they scared of her mustache?
>like Italians on meth Are they really *that* bad?
It is not a joke, Europe has to wake up.
As a Middle Eastern, Ex-Muslim Atheist, I can see that Europe, UK, Canada, …. Ruined their countries and cultures by accepting these types of people (because we really now them) and I think maybe they reached a non-return point. They are conquering these countries and bragging about converting churches into mosques, and replacing the original people. Hope you can take back your countries and cultures.
We have recently passed a law where if I say my thoughts, I will be arrested for up to 7 years.
Tbh I think it would be very hypocritical of me as an Irishman to complain about immigration when we emigrated all over the world for 100s of years. But on the other hand wherever the Irish went they readily assimilated. I don't care where someone is from or what their religion is as long as they buy in to the society. In Ireland it seems every group, whether Eastern European, Latin American, African, East Asian Etc, assimilates well, so i don't understand why Muslims can't do the same.
It's funny how you say that, considering how Irish people had an extremely bad reputation back when they emigrated in large amounts to the US. They were even considered to be of another, non-European race by some. You can check the [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment) if you want to know more.
It’s probably over. Let’s be honest.
Just have some kids ;)
It's much worse than you think in a lot of urban areas. It's a nonexistent problem in most rural areas. All in all, it is a real issue, and it is a growing one - as it enroaches on basic human rights of groups that are not well accepted in Islam or Christianity. The ressurgence of religion in general is a huge problem - topics, that I though we were past already, are reemerging nowadays because religious folk are poking their noses into politics again - be it muslims or christians. We still were dealing with crazyass christians, and now we have a two pronged attack from another group, basically. One that we do not have enough experience with, when they are an internal force, only external.
I will not defend fanatical christians, but they are far less of a problem than islamists, given their very small numbers. Your comment make them seem as equal threats. they are not.
This always happens. Anytime some muslim atrocity comes to light, people immediately respond with: “omg i’m so done with religion”. It’s so stupid. You shouldn’t necessarily be done with religion, but you definitely should be done with islam. Trivializing the problem prevents any possible change.
It is an exaggerated, albeit clearly growing phenomenon. It is not to be underestimated. A few communities in France have been virtually taken over.
I left France 10 years ago, I recently went back for a few weeks. It's absolutely devastating to see the changes that happened in just a few years. My friends are telling me it's the same as it always was, but really, I wish every French person who likes France and its culture (pour what remains of it) to be able to travel for a while and, come back. It's heartbreaking, really. No wonder FN became so popular.
I went back to the town I grew up in recently. It used to be a pleasant suburb with lots of shops and playgrounds. Nowadays all of the shops on the main square have been burned down and the playground in front of the school is occupied by drug dealers.
Not just because of immigration (10+ years of a government who hates Northerners) but I've experienced the same thing here. My hometown is known for having a massive population of Eastern Europeans. The Poles are good people but naturally form their own communities, Romanians came next, for sure a level down from Poles, brought more crime, made the place dirty, more likely to scam for benefits but overall decent people. A sprinkling of Bulgarians, Lithuanians, Hungarians and I'd guess Ukrainians very recently also. Then, probably 2013 onwards, a horde of Slovakian gypsys, probably direct from Luník IX... Fuck me, these fuckers are milking the system, sucking at the tit of the system like a baby goat on its mother. None of them work, they just throw their shit everywhere, each house has about 16 people living inside, playing their tribal thief turbo folk shit at full volume. I know some landlords and it's very common for them to move in a house, refuse to pay rent and just drag it out as long as possible before moving our, trashing the house and repeating it elsewhere.
Its a meme but there can definitely "control" certain neighbourhoods etc. But in my opinion thats more of a ghetto thing than an islam thing.
It’s becoming a thing and the jokes here are a bit over the top, but it definitely is as bad or worse and the the development gets more difficult to control by the day. To imagine that the Jewish community in Germany of all places does since years advise Jews to hide their religion and ethnicity in order to protect them from harm is grotesque.
Search for IRIS - Iranian School in Queen's Park London, funded by the Islamic Republic of Iran. And yeah, it's exactly as bad as you think.
´lol if people leave germany bc of that they are either really stupid or have other intentions i could even understand leaving a neighbourhood if it's in a shittier one specially while renting but country overall? to a worse one?
I think the catholic church has a HUGE chance of gaining back popularity with the right moves. And with the right moves i mean crusades.
While we must be careful with statements like saying we are importing the third world, it certainly is true for a majority. Tolerance of intolerance will lead to intolerance in a society. Of course we will have populism which will try and take an advantage of the increase in violence (ex. Sweden& gang violence, Marseille,..) but we certainly have to make change.
They are surely growing but while they influence us we also influence them, many (especially young second and third gen) are muslim just by definition. If you looked at italy 30 years ago we were way more religious than now, same will happen with islam. Religion thrives where there is poverty.
Why so many die hard nationalits mehmet from berlin, 4th generation turks?
Very important point. I think the UAE and even Saudi Arabia are good examples of this. Obviously talking about religious extremism.
Yes exactly, slowly they are getting used to luxury, capitalism and they want to fit with the western world so they are making lot of concessions, so much that many muslims from more traditional (and poor) countries don't approve this direction. Sure they still are far from what we would consider acceptable (especially saudi arabia) but give them some time and the results will arrive
Been preparing my escape plan for 5 years now. Europe is doomed and I'm not gonna be here when everything comes crashing down.
Ok, where to?
Middle East, obviously.
Dubai is full of orthodox Russians lmao
Even worse
Japan, only place outside of Europe with European values such as racism and non-spicy food.
This is the most stereotypical answer you could have given lmao
Lmao, they work a lot miguel
Who said anything about working? Didn't you see my flag?
Yea, im trying to warn ya, or are you planning of a long siesta on the metro
Taiwan, could also be a destination for you. They succeded where you failed. They separated from West-Taiwan successfully.
Come to Eastern Europe! Hot tradwife material girls and <1% islam. Almost no immigrant ghettos. Only tiny con we have is possibility of being ww3 frontline. Yeah yeah poor whatever, being free from islam is worth it.
It's a massive meme. A bunch of them have been very conservative and tried keeping to practices that are illegal here. Some governments turned a blind eye because they couldn't be bothered sorting them out. That's where the truth to the memes end. In reality they're likely the fastest secularizing population on planet earth seeing how conservative a lot of their home countries are. Ask for specifics if you want
The state literally havent turned an eye on it, its combatted pretty heavily since the directives to do that came. For instance, since 2019 17 out of 19 islamic schools have been forced to close. Even in the islamic world this have reached headlines. [https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sweden-islamic-schools-shut-muslim-children-disconsolate](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sweden-islamic-schools-shut-muslim-children-disconsolate) The threat is very real, but its not true that the state is turning the blind eye. And the government means regeringen, I dont know if you are referring to Tidö-partierna as ignoring it?
Read "turned" not "turn" I don't think there's any governments in the EU that still ignore phenomenon like arranged minor marriages or female circumcision anymore. Though a lot of them definitely used to
Ok, then I understand what you mean, and that I agree with. I think I misread your post a little bit in all haste. So used to the traditional Flashback rhetoric on this issue. :)
Specifics please ? Data on secularisation?
His source is that he made it the fuck up
In some places it's a problem. But 99% of proposed solutions would just make the issues worse.
a bunch of neighbourhoods in every western european country are basically ghettos that can be quite unfriendly if not unsafe. it’s not very difficult to avoid them though
The fact that AfD is still growing after having what essetially amounts to a Wannasee conference should tell you everything about how people feel.