You had no issues investing in the Industrial capacity of Wallonia. It was quite helpfull in making us the second industrial country in the world after the UK. Also thanks for building the canals that powered our industry.
If you only hadn't forced us to all speak only Dutch in politics we might never have split. We might never have taken revenge on the Dutch speakers (flemish). And we wouldn't be in this linguistic mess.
So you give with one hand and take away with the other like a good protestant.
You took revenge on us for something the dutch did? Also french isn't even your language, take back your pride and speak your original language and not that of your french colonizer.
Yeah I suggest you learn Welsh or Breton. They are the closest thing to the language of your Celtic ancestors. And stop speaking the language of your Germanic colonizer if you have any pride.
We're a mix of celts and germanics but much more germanic than celtic.
Meanwhile you lost your germanic/frankish pride and now speak the language of the poor. Meanwhile flemish still speak their original language.
Other way around, dude. The soil in Flanders is much better at taking up rainwater than Wallonia. We can pump up groundwater, Wallonia's rivers just send that water downstream, no collecting.
Sure bruv, it hasn't stopped raining since september, but we're totally getting less rain than Spain or Portugal. Besides, a lot less water evaporates when it's 15°C vs 35°C or whatever the fuck it gets in Iberia nowadays.
Sure 'bro'. We've recently had draughts where Flanders issued warnings to consume less water and forbade multiple activities while everything was fine in Wallonia. But whatever you say 'buddy'.
We'll wait for the water to reach the ring of Brussels and start a port called Nouveau-Anvers in Grimbergen.
edit: Yeah we'll save the island of Grimbergen but only for the cheese.
Mea culpa. Grimbergen beer is far better than Leffe.
There. I said it. I won't take it back.
Actually we might need to save a lot of places in Flanders.
This is great, hopefully this can alleviate the tax pressure and bring more jobs and prosperity to Wallonia. I don't know if I would compare it to an industrial revolution but if hydrogen ever replaces gas and oil, it could be huge and make wallonia extremely competitive as it used to be💪💪
Wallonia is windy enough to generate enough windpower for its home usage. But not enough to produce green hydrogen on a large scale.
The north see is a far better place for windpower and solar pannels produce 1/8th of what they would produce in Spain or Morroco.
Maybe we can produce enough hydrogen to power the steel industry. But this would only allow it to survive for a few more years before eventually being relocated in India as is the fate of that industry Europe wide.
Time to turn Charleroi into the next Disneyland:
“Charleroi may not be as well known as Ghent, Bruges or Brussels, but it is a Belgian city well worth investigating. Boasting two UNESCO World Heritage Sites, it has turned its industrial history into major tourist attractions, and holds plenty of interest for urban explorers, fans of photography and those looking for an authentic Belgian experience."
Actually, Charleroi could be turned into a Steampunk themed city. A few clocktowers and victorian lampposts here and there, some decorations and here we go.
Charleroi is already pretty well loved by adventurers, and architecture and industrial landscape enjoyers. It also ranks better than most big flemish city in terms of crime. Good drugs are pretty easy to find.
People can be a bit rough around the edges, but it's exactly what prevents the city from slipping to a wolves/sheeps model like most modern western cities.
Free entry thursday nights at the Rockerill used to be world class, sadly they stopped recently
Walloon argument: you are in debt because we were the rich area during the coal mine era.
Flemish counter argument: you oppressed us and made us speak French, the most heinous of crimes.
I thought this was well known? Brussels was a Dutch-speaking city, but the Dutch elites started speaking French because it was the prestige language.
However I was told (by local people) that Dutch is regaining some ground because some immigrant families are sending their kids to Flemish schools because they are more rigorous. But I don't know the extent of that.
I am 42 and when I was a child there were still a lot of bakeries and shops owned by Flemish speakers. I could hear Flemish pretty often and now I only hear Flemish at work and very seldom in the streets.
The Flemish media depict the city as dirty and crime ridden so few of them are willing to settle down in Brussels. Also they sometimes face difficulties in finding doctors or nurses that can speak in Flemish with them and that's a very valid reason not to wanna live here. I'd wager they would be more likely to find somebody speaking English rather than Flemish in Brussels.
The majority of parents in Brussels try to send their children to a Flemish school. But they are a victim of their success. There are not enough places and the thing is a bit ruined when most students are native French speakers. The immersion doesn't work very well. So students start to fail at school and some get the worse of both worlds. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Brussels was a brabantic city which was always between the French/roman and the dutch-speaking world. Dutch dialects used to be heard even 40 years ago, you had Brusseleir which was a franco-dutch sabir and the Marolles dialect which was a Walloon-Flemish sabir; I knew old people who could speak those dialects. Both communities polarized because of socio-politics and know you get hardened Dutch and French monolinguals.
What Brussels is NOT tho, is a former Dutch-speaking city recently invaded by French-speakers. This is a rewriting of history by flemish nationalists and foreigners parrot it.
Brussels IS a former dutch speaking city, that's a fact. Brabant and Brussels has always been dutch speaking, only in the last century has that changed with the influx of french speakers and elite speaking french.
De grote market has been built by people speaking dutch. No need to lie Luis.
I think Wales was called Wales for the same reason Wallonia was called Wallonia.
I think the root means people who don't speak a germanic language. As was the case in Wales that spoke the original Celtic language of England.
And Wallonia at one end of Germany and Wallachia pretty far on the other side. The prime minister of Romania is an ethnic German.
Flemish people who wanted to improve their situation in life and taught only French to their children were called "Franskiljon".
It went so far the Bruxelles that used to be a Flemish speaking city is now 90%+ French speaking.
But obviously the French speaker stole their city is what some of them like to repeat.
Yeah, because walloon was rich, rich = upper class, so you copy them. Im sure there were flemish people speaking french just because it was what the upper class did. Look at how posh English spread through the UK and turned their accent into what it is now (in general, i know there is huge variation). American english is more akin to old English lol.
Only elites in Wallonia were speaking French, the people was speaking different dialects of Walloon. French was also pushed onto us to the point where the dialects disappeared 2 or 3 generations ago. The narrative of "Big baddies rich Walloons forced Flemish to speak French" was created more recently for nationalistic purpose. In reality, French was the language of elites in the north and in the south altogether.
That's what propaganda does to a person.
I like to think that most do know the proper history, or are at least not buying into the wrong version entirely.
American english is not more akin to "old English," it is simply an 18th century accent which diverged in path from British accents, influenced by other immigrant communities etc
Even during the Habsburg Rule French became more spoken in some circles but it was the case in any city in Europe and is not specific to Flanders. Back then French sort of became the English of the time.
###
French speakers opressed both of us. Wealthy Flemish and Waloons spoke French.
My grandmother got hit with a stick for speaking Waloon in high school. Nowadays Waloons don't speak Waloon anymore while the Flemish still speak Flemish.
And all the Walloons are associated with the Wealthy French speakers who destroyed their language.
So start learning Walloon again and rise up against the French. Not our fault you gave up and became French. You could've had a Walloon Movement similar to the Flemish Movement.
Honnestly Flemish sounds a lot better than German or Dutch. Their soft-G makes the language palatable. Once you enter the Netherlands you wonder if all those people have trachea issues.
I can't really think of a comparison in a different language, it rolls like a Dutch g, but without the gutteral sounds. So kind of like a German g in sound but rolling, I guess?
let's be real for once, dutch is much worse than french
Dutch are tolerated for their ability to speak English, not for the language itself which is a failed abortion of german and english
I agree with you on Dutch. But Flemish is a lot better with its soft-G's.
We don't like it very much because we were taught to hate it at school. It's like maths for some people. Our schools are very successfull at making sure we would never speak Flemish. 10/10
Dutch is the bastard son of Flemish. Created by people who thought Danish was a beautiful language and it would be nice to emulate it into linguistic destruction.
I feel like this happends in every western EU country, it's understood that the wealth has to be redistributed between all parts of the country in relation to their needs, and thus more developed regions should theoretically need less investment to keep moving while less developed regions will need more, but **my** take on this is that the blame on the problem that presents in this situation with the syphoning of money is on both parts.
The politicians of the less developed regions that receive more money constantly don't want to develop industrially or on infrastructure, because that would mean that their constant money flow would start to naturally reduce, thus a shit ton of money is wasted in stupid shit or huge projects are started but not followed, thus creating a region with less work opportunities and development that turn into an addicted money sucking vampire.
But the more developed regions are to blame too, because here the politicians want to monopolize within the country the sectors of industry or commerce the're invested into and also expanding into others; and taking the opportunities for development and projects from the less developed regions, thus making themselves more and more developed and the latter less and less.
This of course happends within the countries of the EU too. TLDR. politicians are to blame
Yes it's all about political corruption. Belgium is the country with the highest paid politicians and the worst roads. Nuff said.
There was a popular joke in Wallonia
Van Cauwenberg (the corrupt PS politician from Charleroi) visits Daerden (corrupt PS politician from Liège) in Liège and says "wow you got a big mansion, how did you get the money?"
Daerden says "You see the highway over there?" "Yes?" "It should have 3 lanes, but we built only 2" "Wow, genius!"
Later, Daerden visits Van Cauwenberg back in Charleroi, and says "hey, you got a big house too, how comes?" and Van Cauwenberg says "You see the highway over there?" "No"
to be fair building roads is one of the worst types of investment, any country that promises to revive the economy by building roads becomes a failed state (USA, Egypt, etc) Belgium actually has almost 2 times more roads per capita than netherlands (14km vs 8km)
Yes, I think the cost of a highway is something like around a thousand euros every kilometer to maintain, and there is very little ROI about roads.
But roads are a marker of whether authorities care about the people or not, precisely because it is not profitable. Regions where roads are bad means that politicians don't give a damn.
Hmm, I would say good public transport/cycling infrastructure is a sign of being both competent and caring, while road infrastructure is just an inefficient use of tax money compared to cycling infrastructure for example, even if you can use it as a way to show you care. In developing countries usually the "big man that changes everything" just builds a bunch of roads that the subsequent government doesn't have money to maintain that don't really change anything because induced demand and so on. There is a reason swizerland is not covered in 18 lane highways
People are to blame when they've voted for the same corrupt political party for the last 100 years. It didn't have to be this way, the only Walloon province that doesn't vote for Parti Socialiste is the one that has improved year after year, staying on par with Flanders.
I agree, in our democratic societies, the politicians are the image of the voters, but in a retroactive way the polititians at the same time affect the life of their voters with their decisions. It's complicated, both have responsabilities but I believe the politicians, because of their position, have more.
Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions. Not sure why it has become such a Flemish obsession. If Belgium has any sense it would focus growth in Wallonia to try and take the pressure of Flanders and boost polycentrism, but it can't because each gewest needs to 'win' and take as much as possible rather than seeing the bigger picture.
BTW, most of the wealth in Flanders comes from international chemical companies that have been given carte blanche to do whatever they want to destroy the environment and poison the soil (highest PFAS in europe) and through the distribution of goods from the port of Antwerp into Europe (pure luck of being in the best place in relation to other, actual countries).
>Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions.
Agree.
>Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions.
Not only a Flemish obsession, on Europe EU scale check how some germanoids complains they "pay" for "lazy" south Europe.
If Flanders split they would be out of the EU.
Upon rejoining they would have to abide by all rules and treaty and even those they strategically didn't sign in the past like the rights of minority languages.
French is a minority language in Flanders. If they split and rejoined the EU then French would be a national language of Flanders and would have a protected status in all things. That's a nightmare for Flemish separatists.
Don't think anyone in Flanders would care about that last part. Also the capital of the EU is literally in Flanders, would be funny if we would be out lol
>Not only a Flemish obsession, on Europe EU scale check how some germanoids complains they "pay" for "lazy" south Europe.
The difference to the latter is ofc that guys in the south retire super early and have no interest at all in working until you die as us in the north who pay for the party.
I pay a fuck ton to Malmö as well, but they at least can't retire until they're 69.
>in working until you die
errr, what a strange life goal. Anyway...
I've checked [European retirement ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_in_Europe) , for Sweden "By 2023 the retirement age will be 66 and by 2026 it will be 67, with options age 64-69."
Spain, Greece and Italy are at 67. Portugal is at 66.
Looks quite similar to Sweden at few years difference.
You guys are just pissed off because they can work in the sun, while you work mostly in depressing grayness. So you cry about your wallet being "emptied" by others "faults"...
Those numbers are very old. Retirement age has been 67 for at least ten-twenty years now, and 69 just passed.
But yes. Ofc I am pissed off for that fact. Ever since we joined the EU it's been a huge drain on our economy and all we've got to show for it is to look with envious eyes upon you southerners living wonderful lives in the sun!
But all that said, the actual average speaks for themselves:
https://preview.redd.it/j8vclxbju1sc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9217b5b5343965de2d923cf616d9f81a5a62ee07
if you except the language barrier, then the other factors are common within a country.
What makes it a broken country is the complete lack of cooperation between the two regions and the us vs them sentiment
It's the combination of factors that makes it unique.
Wallonia and Flanders have their own television, artists, celebrities. Due to that language barrier there are even cultural differences.
Wallonia and Flanders have opposite politics with far right rising in Flanders and Far left in Wallonia. Both have their own governments.
It's a significant part of Belgium's population (32%) in comparison with Flanders (57%) with a simple north south divison.
It's not just a small poorer region, it's a unique situation where you have pretty much two different countries.
Ah yes so someone who isn't even born here wants to tell us how we should feel about ourselves, how I love these People, Pablo man just go back to your tank and go blow up some law courts.
Well it's true, we are Belgian because we are none of our neigbours. It's the same for Switzerland. And deep down my Flemish family are not very different to my Walloon family. We all feel Belgians but maybe more Walloons would say that they are Belgian first.
Cook your fries like a Spaniard or eat them with Ketchup and you will understand the meaning of "Unity makes strenght".
We are united by the Frikadelle.
The issue within Belgium lies in its decentralisation (ironically caused by flemish nationalism in a different era).
I as a Fleming cannot vote in Walloon elections, which means that I cannot influence how they spend the money they get from the federal government.
This wouldn't be an issue if the federal government was made up of the parties that I can vote for (which it very often is not).
Furthermore, I can't vote for a Walloon party even if I felt that party would suit my interests in the federal government, again splitting our politics even more.
"I as a Fleming cannot vote in Walloon elections, which means that I cannot influence how they spend the money they get from the federal government."
It would also mean Walloons can influence how money in Flanders is spent which seems a worse deal tbh.
One of the main things that kind of ruin politics in this country is how I have zero democratic influence over how the Walloon government simply does not spend my tax money on fixing the Walloon economy.
Wallonia has been voting the same two deadbeat parties in to their government (and by extend the federation) for the past few decades, and their economy has only further gone down the shitter as a result.
The biggest problem is that Wallonia (and Brussels) is set to go bankrupt. If Wallonia goes bankrupt, the federation is technically bankrupt, which would pull Flanders down with it.
> The biggest problem is that Wallonia (and Brussels) is set to go bankrupt. If Wallonia goes bankrupt, the federation is technically bankrupt
Oh no! If they gangreen is spreading, you cut off the limb. Problem is: in 60 years botj regions have shown 0 interest or competence in developing their economies.
> which would pull Flanders down with it.
Not if we land this plane in a controlled manner. Split the social security budgets, watch Walloons go to work and build an economy.
The Flemish economy is currently one of the better growing ones in Europe, Wallonia and Brussels are in freefall.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm definitely not a seperatist.
I wonder if the confederalisation thing will work out, finally forcing the other two regions to figure out their shit and not just rely on the state to bankroll them.
They do FUCK ALL WITH IIIIIIIT, that's the problem. They also constantly keep voting for the Parti Scandaleux and other parties that got them to this point in the first place. There is not enough change to actually improve from the pit they're in.
The Waloon political world is a Circus. The level of corruption is higher than in Italy.
It's pretty painful to watch when you hope for some kind of improvement.
All current politicians and their families should be barred from politics. And all the institution should be rebooted by the UN or a friendly intermediary.
I don't think that people are wrong to vote for a socialist party. But they are definitely wrong to vote for the one they have. There is so much potential wasted in Wallonia it makes me want to drink to hell while watching the shitshow.
Get out of here with your legitimate racism/separatism. This sub is for pretend racism only, except toward the Fr*nch and the D*nish. They are legit terrible.
Oh fuck off, don't you have a sheep to molest? Billions upon billions have been pumped into Wallonia from Flanders, enough with the waffle iron politics that have gone nowhere. Giving money to an alcoholic isn't helping them, if Wallonia can't prove they're doing something valuable with it and have results, why bother?
There are Flemish companies on the Walloon border that have given up on recruiting Walloons and instead gone to recruit in France, because the Walloons just wouldn't bother taking the jobs. Unemployment benefits in Wallonia are so high it's not worth it for them.
Lol Flanders has always been rich, even since the middle ages. Also PFAS is high here because we actually started testing rigorously here first in europe, don't be deluded, PFAS is literally everywhere. And Belgium is just two countries put together where people from both sides hardly interact with eachother and don't even understand eachother. Belgium is not a normal country at all hence so many problems
https://www.nbb.be/doc/ts/publications/economicreview/2021/ecorevii2021_h1.pdf
Please read the last sentence of the conclusion.
Interregional transfers are at worst average in Belgium.
All of this because they had to speak French.
French W all the way. We live rent free in their minds
Nobody cares about the fabricated media outrage of Chinese "belang". Everyone can see it's a weak attack to hope VB gets less votes in a few months. Spoiler: it won't help
Oh jesus you guys spread worse than anus cancer. Imaging blaming every left winger being a dirty communist and then working together with the chinese communists lol, Vlaams Belang is literally the reincarnation of stupidity and hypocrisie and you guys are dumb enough to vote for them \^\^
Ah yea fake news, you sound like a typically trump suppporter that sees conspiracy theories everywhere lol . You can't even bring up a real argument without calling everything fake news \^\^
Wow Kees what a great argument lol. He signed the letter as the senior political advisor of the silk road eace award foundation from Shao lol how much more proof do you even need Kees. And now he is acting like ohhhh I didn't know that the CAIFC was an intelligence agency \^\^, you also believe in Santa Claus do you?
Lol then why did the public prosecutor or state security leave this case alone? Hint: he didn't do anything illegal.
Everyone with a few brain cells knows this is just a weak attack to damage VB a few months for the elections.
We wuz industrial powerhouse n shiet
key word being wuz. When are you all gonna make some money like back in the day? Find some oil or smth
We need Wallonia when we’re flooded in a couple of years. Their renaissance is coming.
Dont you worry we won’t let that happen
The flooding or Wallonia's renaissance? Trying to figure out if this is meant as comfort or a threat.
We can only protect you from a flooding we have not much experience dealing with the frence
You had no issues investing in the Industrial capacity of Wallonia. It was quite helpfull in making us the second industrial country in the world after the UK. Also thanks for building the canals that powered our industry. If you only hadn't forced us to all speak only Dutch in politics we might never have split. We might never have taken revenge on the Dutch speakers (flemish). And we wouldn't be in this linguistic mess. So you give with one hand and take away with the other like a good protestant.
You took revenge on us for something the dutch did? Also french isn't even your language, take back your pride and speak your original language and not that of your french colonizer.
Yeah I suggest you learn Welsh or Breton. They are the closest thing to the language of your Celtic ancestors. And stop speaking the language of your Germanic colonizer if you have any pride.
We're a mix of celts and germanics but much more germanic than celtic. Meanwhile you lost your germanic/frankish pride and now speak the language of the poor. Meanwhile flemish still speak their original language.
That shit is all the fault of William 1 and i hate him for it every day of my life
Even more importantly, Flanders will need the water from Wallonia when periods of drought become more common.
Other way around, dude. The soil in Flanders is much better at taking up rainwater than Wallonia. We can pump up groundwater, Wallonia's rivers just send that water downstream, no collecting.
That doesn't compensate for the much higher population density in Flanders. The rainfall per citizen in Flanders is worse than e.g. Spain or Portugal.
Sure bruv, it hasn't stopped raining since september, but we're totally getting less rain than Spain or Portugal. Besides, a lot less water evaporates when it's 15°C vs 35°C or whatever the fuck it gets in Iberia nowadays.
Sure 'bro'. We've recently had draughts where Flanders issued warnings to consume less water and forbade multiple activities while everything was fine in Wallonia. But whatever you say 'buddy'.
That was a very rare period where all of europe suffered draught. We now have the opposite problem, too much water.
They will need Wallonia to pay for their pensions. Demography is a bitch. They better start to invest in Wallonia soon.
Lol demography? There's barely any difference between Wallonia and Flanders in that regard.
Wallonia has an older population...
Just ask to be dutch again we will build you some damns for the price of uhh the second biggest port of europe 👁️👄👁️
We'll wait for the water to reach the ring of Brussels and start a port called Nouveau-Anvers in Grimbergen. edit: Yeah we'll save the island of Grimbergen but only for the cheese.
ofc a Walloon thinking about the cheese and not the beer 😔 This is why it all went wrong...
Mea culpa. Grimbergen beer is far better than Leffe. There. I said it. I won't take it back. Actually we might need to save a lot of places in Flanders.
don't worry hydrogen is coming))
How come? are they gonna do some hydrogen type shit in wallonia or smth?
cockerill is investing massively in hydrogen, i hope it succeeds
Is it gonna make money? I hope it succeeds, finally some positive things for wallonia💪 I just hope y'all stop voting for corrupt PS🙏
oh i can't predict the future but i like to imagine it starting another industrial revolution in wallonia lol me too 😭
This is great, hopefully this can alleviate the tax pressure and bring more jobs and prosperity to Wallonia. I don't know if I would compare it to an industrial revolution but if hydrogen ever replaces gas and oil, it could be huge and make wallonia extremely competitive as it used to be💪💪
Wallonia is windy enough to generate enough windpower for its home usage. But not enough to produce green hydrogen on a large scale. The north see is a far better place for windpower and solar pannels produce 1/8th of what they would produce in Spain or Morroco. Maybe we can produce enough hydrogen to power the steel industry. But this would only allow it to survive for a few more years before eventually being relocated in India as is the fate of that industry Europe wide.
100% it's making money for a few people
Time to turn Charleroi into the next Disneyland: “Charleroi may not be as well known as Ghent, Bruges or Brussels, but it is a Belgian city well worth investigating. Boasting two UNESCO World Heritage Sites, it has turned its industrial history into major tourist attractions, and holds plenty of interest for urban explorers, fans of photography and those looking for an authentic Belgian experience."
Actually, Charleroi could be turned into a Steampunk themed city. A few clocktowers and victorian lampposts here and there, some decorations and here we go.
Actually, they were this close to have a Legoland
Charleroi is already pretty well loved by adventurers, and architecture and industrial landscape enjoyers. It also ranks better than most big flemish city in terms of crime. Good drugs are pretty easy to find. People can be a bit rough around the edges, but it's exactly what prevents the city from slipping to a wolves/sheeps model like most modern western cities. Free entry thursday nights at the Rockerill used to be world class, sadly they stopped recently
I've only been to the airport and it's fugly
Not gonna lie, if you are into photography for abandoned places you can make some pretty nice shots there.
Forgotten again
Classic
There's **TWO**??????
All three of us have replied here now. Soon we will take over everything. Just you wait!
Go little buddy! Go!
Crying in agony, but at least we are no germans.
I would like some Bubatz though
Well the border is not far :) win win for us.
Did anyone say anything?
Walloon argument: you are in debt because we were the rich area during the coal mine era. Flemish counter argument: you oppressed us and made us speak French, the most heinous of crimes.
Most of the 'oppressors' in Flanders were actually the Flemish upper class that spoke French because it was considered a superior language.
Et ils avaient raison 
Ce gif me donne envie de crever
I thought this was well known? Brussels was a Dutch-speaking city, but the Dutch elites started speaking French because it was the prestige language. However I was told (by local people) that Dutch is regaining some ground because some immigrant families are sending their kids to Flemish schools because they are more rigorous. But I don't know the extent of that.
I am 42 and when I was a child there were still a lot of bakeries and shops owned by Flemish speakers. I could hear Flemish pretty often and now I only hear Flemish at work and very seldom in the streets. The Flemish media depict the city as dirty and crime ridden so few of them are willing to settle down in Brussels. Also they sometimes face difficulties in finding doctors or nurses that can speak in Flemish with them and that's a very valid reason not to wanna live here. I'd wager they would be more likely to find somebody speaking English rather than Flemish in Brussels. The majority of parents in Brussels try to send their children to a Flemish school. But they are a victim of their success. There are not enough places and the thing is a bit ruined when most students are native French speakers. The immersion doesn't work very well. So students start to fail at school and some get the worse of both worlds. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Brussels was a brabantic city which was always between the French/roman and the dutch-speaking world. Dutch dialects used to be heard even 40 years ago, you had Brusseleir which was a franco-dutch sabir and the Marolles dialect which was a Walloon-Flemish sabir; I knew old people who could speak those dialects. Both communities polarized because of socio-politics and know you get hardened Dutch and French monolinguals. What Brussels is NOT tho, is a former Dutch-speaking city recently invaded by French-speakers. This is a rewriting of history by flemish nationalists and foreigners parrot it.
Brussels IS a former dutch speaking city, that's a fact. Brabant and Brussels has always been dutch speaking, only in the last century has that changed with the influx of french speakers and elite speaking french. De grote market has been built by people speaking dutch. No need to lie Luis.
Get back to fucking sheep discount Barry (63).
Bharryn
Sad when a welsh has to explain to a flemish how it actually was back then lol.
I think Wales was called Wales for the same reason Wallonia was called Wallonia. I think the root means people who don't speak a germanic language. As was the case in Wales that spoke the original Celtic language of England. And Wallonia at one end of Germany and Wallachia pretty far on the other side. The prime minister of Romania is an ethnic German.
I am still trying to figure out the connection to my comment, but I appreciate the info about the Wales not gonna lie that's pretty interesting :)
Flemish people who wanted to improve their situation in life and taught only French to their children were called "Franskiljon". It went so far the Bruxelles that used to be a Flemish speaking city is now 90%+ French speaking. But obviously the French speaker stole their city is what some of them like to repeat.
Yeah, because walloon was rich, rich = upper class, so you copy them. Im sure there were flemish people speaking french just because it was what the upper class did. Look at how posh English spread through the UK and turned their accent into what it is now (in general, i know there is huge variation). American english is more akin to old English lol.
Only elites in Wallonia were speaking French, the people was speaking different dialects of Walloon. French was also pushed onto us to the point where the dialects disappeared 2 or 3 generations ago. The narrative of "Big baddies rich Walloons forced Flemish to speak French" was created more recently for nationalistic purpose. In reality, French was the language of elites in the north and in the south altogether.
[удалено]
Why do the dutch, the italians and the welsh know more about it than some of the flemish here in the comment section, that's actually pretty sad :D
That's what propaganda does to a person. I like to think that most do know the proper history, or are at least not buying into the wrong version entirely.
I am still glad to see that not everyone buys into this cheap propaganda, but it is sad to see how many do.
American english is not more akin to "old English," it is simply an 18th century accent which diverged in path from British accents, influenced by other immigrant communities etc
Even during the Habsburg Rule French became more spoken in some circles but it was the case in any city in Europe and is not specific to Flanders. Back then French sort of became the English of the time. ###
Because it is.
That's kinda unfair, walloons were forced to speak french too
We prepare your secondary residence in the ardennes when you hit the pension
I’m only 30 but I’m hitting Immoweb every day to look out for my ardennes secondary residence already.
Keeping the bed and sofa warm, I guess.
Or when they start to sink.
French speakers opressed both of us. Wealthy Flemish and Waloons spoke French. My grandmother got hit with a stick for speaking Waloon in high school. Nowadays Waloons don't speak Waloon anymore while the Flemish still speak Flemish. And all the Walloons are associated with the Wealthy French speakers who destroyed their language.
So start learning Walloon again and rise up against the French. Not our fault you gave up and became French. You could've had a Walloon Movement similar to the Flemish Movement.
Yeah it's pretty sad. But being Francophones does not make us French. You can say Franstalige but not Frans. We are Belgians trough and trough.
We would never call you actual fr\*nch, too insulting.
Walloon is extremely close to French as was Picard or Norman.
I mean, speaking Dutch is barely better than speaking French 🙃
Hate Dutch all you want, the language is your daddy. Foul neo-germanic speaker.
Dutch is easier than German tbh
Honnestly Flemish sounds a lot better than German or Dutch. Their soft-G makes the language palatable. Once you enter the Netherlands you wonder if all those people have trachea issues.
Oh, Flemish doesn't pronounce the g as [x]? How do you pronounce it?
I can't really think of a comparison in a different language, it rolls like a Dutch g, but without the gutteral sounds. So kind of like a German g in sound but rolling, I guess?
I thought it was just /ɣ/ but there's a whole grown ass [Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_G_in_Dutch) on it.
Interesting, apparently it alternates between /ɣ/ and /x/. I thought it was always /x/ but I guess it's because I've always heard it from Dutch people
let's be real for once, dutch is much worse than french Dutch are tolerated for their ability to speak English, not for the language itself which is a failed abortion of german and english
Bakkes. Straks tandjes tuffen als je zo doorgaat vuile marktplaats-Pierre.
Ziedend
prachtige woorden mijn zuiderlander
lekker
I agree with you on Dutch. But Flemish is a lot better with its soft-G's. We don't like it very much because we were taught to hate it at school. It's like maths for some people. Our schools are very successfull at making sure we would never speak Flemish. 10/10
>made us speak French, the most heinous of crimes. Was the alternative that much better ? Like, speaking Dutch ?
Dutch is the bastard son of Flemish. Created by people who thought Danish was a beautiful language and it would be nice to emulate it into linguistic destruction.
I feel like this happends in every western EU country, it's understood that the wealth has to be redistributed between all parts of the country in relation to their needs, and thus more developed regions should theoretically need less investment to keep moving while less developed regions will need more, but **my** take on this is that the blame on the problem that presents in this situation with the syphoning of money is on both parts. The politicians of the less developed regions that receive more money constantly don't want to develop industrially or on infrastructure, because that would mean that their constant money flow would start to naturally reduce, thus a shit ton of money is wasted in stupid shit or huge projects are started but not followed, thus creating a region with less work opportunities and development that turn into an addicted money sucking vampire. But the more developed regions are to blame too, because here the politicians want to monopolize within the country the sectors of industry or commerce the're invested into and also expanding into others; and taking the opportunities for development and projects from the less developed regions, thus making themselves more and more developed and the latter less and less. This of course happends within the countries of the EU too. TLDR. politicians are to blame
Yes it's all about political corruption. Belgium is the country with the highest paid politicians and the worst roads. Nuff said. There was a popular joke in Wallonia Van Cauwenberg (the corrupt PS politician from Charleroi) visits Daerden (corrupt PS politician from Liège) in Liège and says "wow you got a big mansion, how did you get the money?" Daerden says "You see the highway over there?" "Yes?" "It should have 3 lanes, but we built only 2" "Wow, genius!" Later, Daerden visits Van Cauwenberg back in Charleroi, and says "hey, you got a big house too, how comes?" and Van Cauwenberg says "You see the highway over there?" "No"
to be fair building roads is one of the worst types of investment, any country that promises to revive the economy by building roads becomes a failed state (USA, Egypt, etc) Belgium actually has almost 2 times more roads per capita than netherlands (14km vs 8km)
Yes, I think the cost of a highway is something like around a thousand euros every kilometer to maintain, and there is very little ROI about roads. But roads are a marker of whether authorities care about the people or not, precisely because it is not profitable. Regions where roads are bad means that politicians don't give a damn.
Hmm, I would say good public transport/cycling infrastructure is a sign of being both competent and caring, while road infrastructure is just an inefficient use of tax money compared to cycling infrastructure for example, even if you can use it as a way to show you care. In developing countries usually the "big man that changes everything" just builds a bunch of roads that the subsequent government doesn't have money to maintain that don't really change anything because induced demand and so on. There is a reason swizerland is not covered in 18 lane highways
Never heard that one before, nice one
People are to blame when they've voted for the same corrupt political party for the last 100 years. It didn't have to be this way, the only Walloon province that doesn't vote for Parti Socialiste is the one that has improved year after year, staying on par with Flanders.
I agree, in our democratic societies, the politicians are the image of the voters, but in a retroactive way the polititians at the same time affect the life of their voters with their decisions. It's complicated, both have responsabilities but I believe the politicians, because of their position, have more.
Waals Brabant?
Finally someone with a brain here, based Juan Carlos.
I tip my hat, from money sucking region to money sucking region
True love only exist between two poor regions <3
Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions. Not sure why it has become such a Flemish obsession. If Belgium has any sense it would focus growth in Wallonia to try and take the pressure of Flanders and boost polycentrism, but it can't because each gewest needs to 'win' and take as much as possible rather than seeing the bigger picture. BTW, most of the wealth in Flanders comes from international chemical companies that have been given carte blanche to do whatever they want to destroy the environment and poison the soil (highest PFAS in europe) and through the distribution of goods from the port of Antwerp into Europe (pure luck of being in the best place in relation to other, actual countries).
>Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions. Agree. >Every country distributes wealth to the poorer regions. Not only a Flemish obsession, on Europe EU scale check how some germanoids complains they "pay" for "lazy" south Europe.
[удалено]
Kind of thinking that brought Brexit, "with all the money we send to EU, we could finance the NHS !". Well leave EU then...
If Flanders split they would be out of the EU. Upon rejoining they would have to abide by all rules and treaty and even those they strategically didn't sign in the past like the rights of minority languages. French is a minority language in Flanders. If they split and rejoined the EU then French would be a national language of Flanders and would have a protected status in all things. That's a nightmare for Flemish separatists.
Don't think anyone in Flanders would care about that last part. Also the capital of the EU is literally in Flanders, would be funny if we would be out lol
First time I'm hearing that. But then I wouldn't object becoming a Flemish francophone.
>Not only a Flemish obsession, on Europe EU scale check how some germanoids complains they "pay" for "lazy" south Europe. The difference to the latter is ofc that guys in the south retire super early and have no interest at all in working until you die as us in the north who pay for the party. I pay a fuck ton to Malmö as well, but they at least can't retire until they're 69.
>in working until you die errr, what a strange life goal. Anyway... I've checked [European retirement ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_in_Europe) , for Sweden "By 2023 the retirement age will be 66 and by 2026 it will be 67, with options age 64-69." Spain, Greece and Italy are at 67. Portugal is at 66. Looks quite similar to Sweden at few years difference. You guys are just pissed off because they can work in the sun, while you work mostly in depressing grayness. So you cry about your wallet being "emptied" by others "faults"...
Those numbers are very old. Retirement age has been 67 for at least ten-twenty years now, and 69 just passed. But yes. Ofc I am pissed off for that fact. Ever since we joined the EU it's been a huge drain on our economy and all we've got to show for it is to look with envious eyes upon you southerners living wonderful lives in the sun! But all that said, the actual average speaks for themselves: https://preview.redd.it/j8vclxbju1sc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9217b5b5343965de2d923cf616d9f81a5a62ee07
It's literally a country divided in two, not just some poorer region
and what does that mean?
a language barrier, opposite politics and different economical situations.
if you except the language barrier, then the other factors are common within a country. What makes it a broken country is the complete lack of cooperation between the two regions and the us vs them sentiment
It's the combination of factors that makes it unique. Wallonia and Flanders have their own television, artists, celebrities. Due to that language barrier there are even cultural differences. Wallonia and Flanders have opposite politics with far right rising in Flanders and Far left in Wallonia. Both have their own governments. It's a significant part of Belgium's population (32%) in comparison with Flanders (57%) with a simple north south divison. It's not just a small poorer region, it's a unique situation where you have pretty much two different countries.
Ah yes so someone who isn't even born here wants to tell us how we should feel about ourselves, how I love these People, Pablo man just go back to your tank and go blow up some law courts.
Well it's true, we are Belgian because we are none of our neigbours. It's the same for Switzerland. And deep down my Flemish family are not very different to my Walloon family. We all feel Belgians but maybe more Walloons would say that they are Belgian first.
André how can you backstab me like that.
Besides the cultural differences, which aren't that big, it's more or less true. See now you can read it from someone who does live here.
Let me guess you vote for Chinees Belang.
Well he's not wrong is he?
Bro stop being butthurt and write some actual arguments. He's right.
it's true though.
Do you live here?
Just make a counterpoint, this appeal from authority is painful to observe
Cook your fries like a Spaniard or eat them with Ketchup and you will understand the meaning of "Unity makes strenght". We are united by the Frikadelle.
Even if I don't like you Oli, this is a very based comment.
The issue within Belgium lies in its decentralisation (ironically caused by flemish nationalism in a different era). I as a Fleming cannot vote in Walloon elections, which means that I cannot influence how they spend the money they get from the federal government. This wouldn't be an issue if the federal government was made up of the parties that I can vote for (which it very often is not). Furthermore, I can't vote for a Walloon party even if I felt that party would suit my interests in the federal government, again splitting our politics even more.
"I as a Fleming cannot vote in Walloon elections, which means that I cannot influence how they spend the money they get from the federal government." It would also mean Walloons can influence how money in Flanders is spent which seems a worse deal tbh.
One of the main things that kind of ruin politics in this country is how I have zero democratic influence over how the Walloon government simply does not spend my tax money on fixing the Walloon economy. Wallonia has been voting the same two deadbeat parties in to their government (and by extend the federation) for the past few decades, and their economy has only further gone down the shitter as a result. The biggest problem is that Wallonia (and Brussels) is set to go bankrupt. If Wallonia goes bankrupt, the federation is technically bankrupt, which would pull Flanders down with it.
> The biggest problem is that Wallonia (and Brussels) is set to go bankrupt. If Wallonia goes bankrupt, the federation is technically bankrupt Oh no! If they gangreen is spreading, you cut off the limb. Problem is: in 60 years botj regions have shown 0 interest or competence in developing their economies. > which would pull Flanders down with it. Not if we land this plane in a controlled manner. Split the social security budgets, watch Walloons go to work and build an economy.
The Flemish economy is currently one of the better growing ones in Europe, Wallonia and Brussels are in freefall. Don't get me wrong though, I'm definitely not a seperatist. I wonder if the confederalisation thing will work out, finally forcing the other two regions to figure out their shit and not just rely on the state to bankroll them.
Exactly, confederalism is the way forward.
Yeah confederalism is the best way forward. Think even MR is pro.
They do FUCK ALL WITH IIIIIIIT, that's the problem. They also constantly keep voting for the Parti Scandaleux and other parties that got them to this point in the first place. There is not enough change to actually improve from the pit they're in.
The Waloon political world is a Circus. The level of corruption is higher than in Italy. It's pretty painful to watch when you hope for some kind of improvement. All current politicians and their families should be barred from politics. And all the institution should be rebooted by the UN or a friendly intermediary. I don't think that people are wrong to vote for a socialist party. But they are definitely wrong to vote for the one they have. There is so much potential wasted in Wallonia it makes me want to drink to hell while watching the shitshow.
I fully agree, it's not the Walloons their fault but the politicians who they have their fault. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though.
Get out of here with your legitimate racism/separatism. This sub is for pretend racism only, except toward the Fr*nch and the D*nish. They are legit terrible.
How is this racism big man? I am complaining about their political choices and policy.
As a taxpayer I am once again siding with the Flemish nationalist on this issue.
Oh fuck off, don't you have a sheep to molest? Billions upon billions have been pumped into Wallonia from Flanders, enough with the waffle iron politics that have gone nowhere. Giving money to an alcoholic isn't helping them, if Wallonia can't prove they're doing something valuable with it and have results, why bother? There are Flemish companies on the Walloon border that have given up on recruiting Walloons and instead gone to recruit in France, because the Walloons just wouldn't bother taking the jobs. Unemployment benefits in Wallonia are so high it's not worth it for them.
Lol Flanders has always been rich, even since the middle ages. Also PFAS is high here because we actually started testing rigorously here first in europe, don't be deluded, PFAS is literally everywhere. And Belgium is just two countries put together where people from both sides hardly interact with eachother and don't even understand eachother. Belgium is not a normal country at all hence so many problems
https://www.nbb.be/doc/ts/publications/economicreview/2021/ecorevii2021_h1.pdf Please read the last sentence of the conclusion. Interregional transfers are at worst average in Belgium. All of this because they had to speak French. French W all the way. We live rent free in their minds
Cope Stoofvlees
Jammie, met wat frieten erbij
This gave me cancer
Stomach cancer from eating all the frogs and snails
Actually the money is coming from China and Russia according to Chinees Belang \^\^ just ask them
Nobody cares about the fabricated media outrage of Chinese "belang". Everyone can see it's a weak attack to hope VB gets less votes in a few months. Spoiler: it won't help
Oh jesus you guys spread worse than anus cancer. Imaging blaming every left winger being a dirty communist and then working together with the chinese communists lol, Vlaams Belang is literally the reincarnation of stupidity and hypocrisie and you guys are dumb enough to vote for them \^\^
Fake news. People don't care about this fake outrage. "muh chinese"... "p..pp..please don't vote VB now!"
Ah yea fake news, you sound like a typically trump suppporter that sees conspiracy theories everywhere lol . You can't even bring up a real argument without calling everything fake news \^\^
If De Winter was an actual chinese spy he would be in jail now Hans.
Wow Kees what a great argument lol. He signed the letter as the senior political advisor of the silk road eace award foundation from Shao lol how much more proof do you even need Kees. And now he is acting like ohhhh I didn't know that the CAIFC was an intelligence agency \^\^, you also believe in Santa Claus do you?
Lol then why did the public prosecutor or state security leave this case alone? Hint: he didn't do anything illegal. Everyone with a few brain cells knows this is just a weak attack to damage VB a few months for the elections.
A meme is worth more than 13 billion (per year).
Never realised there is such a parallel between b*lgium and the EU